CBE 98: A Chat with Doug Thonus

[Fred]

Here are a few topics we discussed, and I'd love to hear your take:

#1. I personally think this Pax-Del Negro flareup is overblown. I love Pax, and I don't mind that kind of fire in a GM. In the grand scheme of things, it really shouldn't hurt the team if the GM and Coach get into a quasi-physical argument. However, in David Haugh's article, he mentioned that "Del Negro loudly challenged former Bull Tyrus Thomas to a fight". Is this true? I never heard this before. I don't care what a player says....a coach challenging a player to a physical altercation shouldn't happen in today's professional ranks. Now that Knight is gone, is shouldn't happen in college either. That kind of altercation can hurt the team, with a player possibly getting injured.

#2. If Rose doesn't get any better defensively for the rest of his career, will he end up as the 2nd best Bull of All-Time?

#3. Do you think Vinny was the leak regarding the fight to justify his Noah minutes against New Jersey?

 

[pinkizdead]

3, YES! it saved his damn rep. He was getting a lot of heat for benching noah. That new jersey loss tarnished his career. The guy knows he needs to look for a new job next year. If it took place in vinny's office, the players werent witness to it, who mentioned it? Pax? Vinny? Bernie? who else knows ? If it's as limited as the bulls make it out to be, Vinny has to be suspect#1 as the leak.

2. if he doesnt get better defensively, i'm worried about him. It doesnt take great abilities to learn how to play defense. He has all the phsyical tools necessary. He's getting better at blocking shots, if he can learn to stay in front of his man, he'll be okay. Right now, rose is in the argument for top ten. He's got to be the best bull of this last decade including the 010 season. bg is 2.

1. Apparently the gm and coach and players get into heated debates/"fights" all the time. At least thats the way Sir charles made it sound.

 

[clonetrooper264]

2. I think he may end up falling short of Pippen (who is in my mind #2 no question) if he doesn't get any better. But I believe he will get much better, as you said, anyone can learn how to get into a good defensive stance. Rose is freakishly athletic so given time and effort, he can be 5x the defender Kirk ever was easily.

 

[RC_Skinny22]

Can you even get better defensively than Jordan and Pippen? I think this is impossible.

 

[Shakes]

1. I can't imagine VDN challenging Tyrus to a fight. I can imagine him saying something like "are you looking for a fight" which is a rhetorical question, and some reporter decides to use that in light of the recent allegations.

2. Pippen was the 4th best player at his position in the modern era. Can Rose reach that kind of level? That's a huge call.

3. Everyone was slamming Vinny for not playing Noah, so it makes sense for him to leak it.

And a final answer to something else Fred mentioned: The Bulls are the number 1 rebounding team in raw numbers because we're a bunch of bricklayers. In terms of rebounding percentage we're a good but not great rebounding team.

PS: I'll believe Fred is actually letting the anger go when I see it. A while back he also said he was going to give up ranting about Kirk Hinrich then dedicated the next podcast to ranting about Kirk Hinrich. :laugh:

 

[houheffna]

My goodness, this Kirk Hinrich stuff is crazy! Does it ever friggin end? That said, Rose will NOT be 5x the defender Hinrich is, in his wettest dreams! Didn't an NBA coach say Hinrich is the best on the ball defender in the league just a week or two ago?

 

[Diddy1122]

houheffna wrote:

My goodness, this Kirk Hinrich stuff is crazy! Does it ever friggin end? That said, Rose will NOT be 5x the defender Hinrich is, in his wettest dreams! Didn't an NBA coach say Hinrich is the best on the ball defender in the league just a week or two ago?

Yes because it's insane to think Rose could ever improve on defense. It's not like he's really improved at all since his rookie season, right? Rose will get better defensively. 5x better than Kirk, well who knows. He's already 10x's the player he is so I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that Rose will acheive Kirk's defensive greatness.

Is Kirk a good defender? Yes. Best on the ball defender in the league? Not so much. There's this guy named Kobe, not sure if Alvin Gentry has seen him play, who I think is a HAIR better than Kirk on the defensive end. And if Kirk is the best on-ball defender, I'd like to know why the best he can do is ALL NBA 2nd Defensive Team ONCE in his entire career. I'll say he's the most overrated on-ball defender in the NBA.

 

[Diddy1122]

1. I agree with Shakes. I think it's highly unlikely that Vinny straight out challenged Tyrus to a fight. This, as well as the whole "Vinny started it" story, seem like PR spin by the Bulls media department at the behest of JR to save him some potential settlement money, which is coming Vinny's way no doubt about it.

2. I believe Rose will get better defensively. He's improved alot since his rookie season. And if people remember, no one thought Lebron was that good of a defender until a couple seasons ago. A player with the immense amount of talent that Rose possesses has all the tools to be a defensive stopper is just a matter of focus & determination.

3. A resounding HELL NO! I don't even understand why people are saying this. Save his rep? Seriously? What rep? Why in the world would Vinny leak out a story that 1) creates a media hurricane around himself, the Bulls, & his players; 2) creates a HUGE distraction while his team is fighting for a playoff spot; & 3) creates a potential legal issues when there are lawyers investigating the incident. It makes ZERO sense for Vinny to leak this story. My guess is either his agent, an assistant coach, or a player's agent or close friend leaked this out.

 

[J-Mart]

houheffna wrote:

My goodness, this Kirk Hinrich stuff is crazy! Does it ever friggin end? That said, Rose will NOT be 5x the defender Hinrich is, in his wettest dreams! Didn't an NBA coach say Hinrich is the best on the ball defender in the league just a week or two ago?

Come on Hou your smarter than that, you know Hinrich isn't even close to being the best on ball defender in the league. Good defender, of course. Great defender, no. It would be a huge stretch to put him in the top 10 if you ask me.

 

[houheffna]

Yes because it's insane to think Rose could ever improve on defense. It's not like he's really improved at all since his rookie season, right? Rose will get better defensively. 5x better than Kirk, well who knows. He's already 10x's the player he is so I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that Rose will acheive Kirk's defensive greatness.

Is Kirk a good defender? Yes. Best on the ball defender in the league? Not so much. There's this guy named Kobe, not sure if Alvin Gentry has seen him play, who I think is a HAIR better than Kirk on the defensive end. And if Kirk is the best on-ball defender, I'd like to know why the best he can do is ALL NBA 2nd Defensive Team ONCE in his entire career. I'll say he's the most overrated on-ball defender in the NBA.

What is insane is what was deduced from the statement I made. Its not what I said at all...

No one said Rose wasn't a better player, nor was it said that he couldn't improve defensively, maybe you have some insane idea that better means 5x better than Kirk? I have news for you...no. I just don't believe Kirk's skill have to be belittled comparable to EVERYBODY that is, has been, or will be a Bull for eternity! For crying out loud!

I just find it interesting that when a coach says something like that, its discounted, but people quote positive Gordon quotes like Martin Luther King Jr. said it or something. I don't believe he is the best on ball defender, I do believe he is a very good defender in this league and has been the best ball defender on this team damn near his whole career here. Kirk deserves a bit more respect than he gets is my point. The league appreciates him more than the fans here do.

Kirk is a very good defensive player, to assume that Rose will be five times better is overdoing it. Yes he won all league defensive player honors once. Many in these parts say that Pippen is the greatest defender on the ball...ever, he is the best I have seen. How many times was he defensive player of the year? If Kirk was named 3 or 4 times all league, he would still be vilified, so what does it matter. It will be nice to see Rose good enough to guard point guards, and wing players a half a foot taller than him as Hinrich does routinely. Lets not act like those type of players grow on trees...

Come on Hou your smarter than that, you know Hinrich isn't even close to being the best on ball defender in the league. Good defender, of course. Great defender, no. It would be a huge stretch to put him in the top 10 if you ask me.

Putting him in the top 10 currently in the league? I wouldn't say that was far fetched at all. I would dare say there are very few at his position who do what he does defensively, or are even asked to do what he does. I can't think of 10 players who work that hard and efficiently on defense, yet on this board he is berated when Kobe does well against him, its Kobe Bryant!

Kirk is woefully inconsistent offensively, but that is not the case at all defensively.

 

[Diddy1122]

houheffna wrote:

Yes because it's insane to think Rose could ever improve on defense. It's not like he's really improved at all since his rookie season, right? Rose will get better defensively. 5x better than Kirk, well who knows. He's already 10x's the player he is so I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that Rose will acheive Kirk's defensive greatness.

Is Kirk a good defender? Yes. Best on the ball defender in the league? Not so much. There's this guy named Kobe, not sure if Alvin Gentry has seen him play, who I think is a HAIR better than Kirk on the defensive end. And if Kirk is the best on-ball defender, I'd like to know why the best he can do is ALL NBA 2nd Defensive Team ONCE in his entire career. I'll say he's the most overrated on-ball defender in the NBA.

What is insane is what was deduced from the statement I made. Its not what I said at all...

No one said Rose wasn't a better player, nor was it said that he couldn't improve defensively, maybe you have some insane idea that better means 5x better than Kirk? I have news for you...no. I just don't believe Kirk's skill have to be belittled comparable to EVERYBODY that is, has been, or will be a Bull for eternity! For crying out loud!

I just find it interesting that when a coach says something like that, its discounted, but people quote positive Gordon quotes like Martin Luther King Jr. said it or something. I don't believe he is the best on ball defender, I do believe he is a very good defender in this league and has been the best ball defender on this team damn near his whole career here. Kirk deserves a bit more respect than he gets is my point. The league appreciates him more than the fans here do.

Kirk is a very good defensive player, to assume that Rose will be five times better is overdoing it. Yes he won all league defensive player honors once. Many in these parts say that Pippen is the greatest defender on the ball...ever, he is the best I have seen. How many times was he defensive player of the year? If Kirk was named 3 or 4 times all league, he would still be vilified, so what does it matter. It will be nice to see Rose good enough to guard point guards, and wing players a half a foot taller than him as Hinrich does routinely. Lets not act like those type of players grow on trees...

Never said YOU thought Kirk was a better player or 5x's better or whatever the hell you're talking about. I said Rose's already a much better player with loads more talent so it's not inconceivable, as you think it is, that he could be a better defender than Kirk. He's bigger, stronger, quicker, & more athletic. All it takes is focus & determination like I said.

And I even said Kirk is a good defender. He's the best we've had on the wing since MJ & Pip left. There's no arguing that. And if Kirk was named to 3 or 4 all league teams, he wouldn't be villified as much, trust me. Lots of people still love Kirk, just not that many on here, but making All-Defense would atleast justify some of adulation he receives for his defense. I'm not discounting what Gentry said I just think it was said because they happened to be playing the Bulls that night.

Defenders like Hinrich don't grow on trees but shooters like BG do? Contradict yourself much?

 

[J-Mart]

houheffna wrote:

Putting him in the top 10 currently in the league? I wouldn't say that was far fetched at all. I would dare say there are very few at his position who do what he does defensively, or are even asked to do what he does. I can't think of 10 players who work that hard and efficiently on defense, yet on this board he is berated when Kobe does well against him, its Kobe Bryant!

Kirk is woefully inconsistent offensively, but that is not the case at all defensively.

I am not denying Kirk's effort and work that he puts on the defensive end, in fact it is key to being a good defender. The problem lies in something Kirk has little control over and that is his lateral quickness. He is just not quick enough to guard a lot of the faster guards in the league, that to me is what stops him from being a great defender/top 10. Effort goes a long way but you still need the natural talent, which Kirk does lack in my opinion. That is why guys like Diddy are saying Rose will surpass Kirk in defensive ability. Rose no doubt has all the physical tools and has shown that he has a great work ethic and can vastly improve upon his weaknesses. There is no reason imo that he won't surpass Kirk in the next 2-3 years.

It is not belittling Kirk, it is just reality.

 

[clonetrooper264]

I by no means belittle Kirk defensively. Kirk, IMO, is a pretty darn good on ball defender to say the least. He's by far the best defender on the team and has been for his whole career or close to it. In saying that Rose could be 5x better, I'm not saying that to demean Kirk, but rather to say that Rose could be an elite defender. He has all the things that Kirk doesn't have: blazing quickness, enormous athletic ability, a 40 inch vertical. If Kirk had those things, he'd be a better defender than Jason Kidd or Gary Payton possibly. Well...maybe that might be a stretch, but who knows? Rose could be that good if he tries.

 

[Shakes]

To compare Rose to a 9 time all-defensive first team and DPOY is just a joke at this point. It's like saying Noah is pretty athletic, maybe he can become the next Hakeem offensively. Defense isn't just about working hard. Plenty of players work hard without becoming gresat defenders, they just lack the skill set. The way some people make it sound you'd think you could take any 6-8 guy off the street and turn them into Dennis Rodman if you died their hair got them to work hard.

 

[clonetrooper264]

But Rose can get there. He has all the tools, he just needs to master how to use them like a DPOY would. Will he get there? I'd say probably not, but he has the potential to, at least IMO. A person with the gifts that he has, nothing is completely outrageous...except maybe that he'll be a low post threat. B)

 

[houheffna]

Never said YOU thought Kirk was a better player or 5x's better or whatever the hell you're talking about. I said Rose's already a much better player with loads more talent so it's not inconceivable, as you think it is, that he could be a better defender than Kirk. He's bigger, stronger, quicker, & more athletic. All it takes is focus & determination like I said.

And I even said Kirk is a good defender. He's the best we've had on the wing since MJ & Pip left. There's no arguing that. And if Kirk was named to 3 or 4 all league teams, he wouldn't be villified as much, trust me. Lots of people still love Kirk, just not that many on here, but making All-Defense would atleast justify some of adulation he receives for his defense. I'm not discounting what Gentry said I just think it was said because they happened to be playing the Bulls that night.

Defenders like Hinrich don't grow on trees but shooters like BG do? Contradict yourself much?

Ummm...nope. There are more players in this league who can shoot than there are who can defend on Kirk's level...

My point about BG is that people were complaining about not having anyone who could hit open jumpers. I said those guys grow on trees. That was the statement I made, not shooters like BG. I said that you can go and get a shooter from a few teams in the league that have so many, like Portland and Houston, that some don't even play. And they would come to town for a lot less than 12mil a year.

 

[Shakes]

clonetrooper264 wrote:

But Rose can get there. He has all the tools, he just needs to master how to use them like a DPOY would. Will he get there? I'd say probably not, but he has the potential to, at least IMO. A person with the gifts that he has, nothing is completely outrageous...except maybe that he'll be a low post threat. B)

I don't know, he hasn't really shown he has the sort of defensive anticipation to be a top defender. Sure he's athletic and that will allow him to be good, but great defenders read the play and are one step ahead. Being athletic allows you to react faster/better, but not be in the spot you need to be before the play happens.

 

[Fred]

houheffna wrote:

My goodness, this Kirk Hinrich stuff is crazy! Does it ever friggin end? That said, Rose will NOT be 5x the defender Hinrich is, in his wettest dreams! Didn't an NBA coach say Hinrich is the best on the ball defender in the league just a week or two ago?

I hate to be drawn into this argument, but I'd be willing to bet my house that you can count on one hand the amount of times Alvin Gentry has watched Kirk play this year. Kirk is a very good defender...he's not a great defender, and it's reflected in the fact that he's never been a 1st Team All Defense. And since he has never been 1st Team All Defense, how can you possible say he's the BEST in anything? How is that possible if Alvin's right?

But if you want to play the whatever the NBA coach says is true game, then I'd like you to admit that Eric Spoelstra is correct in his comments on BG: "He is sensational. He has such an incredible determination. He never seems like he fatigues.”

 

[houheffna]

Fred, you fire off positive quotes about Gordon all the time, like its Shakespeare or something. Then when Gentry says what he said about Hinrich, you lambasted Gentry. I didn't accept Gentry's comments anymore than I accept the bs people say about Gordon as if he is great. I know how I feel about those players and neither of them are important in the grand scheme of things. You got people on here talking about how Wade wanted Gordon so bad, Wade wants Bosh! Kirk is very good defensively, he is as good on that side of the court as Gordon is on the offensive side. Yet people knock Kirk when players get the better of him but Gordon gets a free ride because his ankle hurts?

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

Fred, you fire off positive quotes about Gordon all the time, like its Shakespeare or something. Then when Gentry says what he said about Hinrich, you lambasted Gentry. I didn't accept Gentry's comments anymore than I accept the bs people say about Gordon as if he is great. I know how I feel about those players and neither of them are important in the grand scheme of things. You got people on here talking about how Wade wanted Gordon so bad, Wade wants Bosh! Kirk is very good defensively, he is as good on that side of the court as Gordon is on the offensive side. Yet people knock Kirk when players get the better of him but Gordon gets a free ride because his ankle hurts?

If Kirk is so great, why does SG have the worst +/- differential on the team? Yes worse than PF, that had Tyrus and rookie Taj getting all the minutes.