Championship Teams and Bigmen

[badboy]

Just an observation I would like to discuss. As far back as I can remember watching basketball; I have never seen a team win the championship with there best bigman not being a good defender. I am 26 years old and I can remember back to Detroit winning. Then the Bulls with Horace Grant and Bill Cartwirght, then the Dream, Dennis Rodman, Tim Duncan/David Robinson, Shaq, Duncan, the Wallaces', Duncan, Shaq/ZO, Duncan, Garnett.

This could be carried further into saying the teams best player during that time was also a good defender.

This I think should be something the team should also keep in my mind when looking for a bigman. It also suggests maybe Bosh and Stoudemire aren't good targets or just why they haven't won until now and maybe they will both concentrate and get better on defense before winning in the future.

What do some of you think?

 

[houheffna]

That is a very, very sound argument. That is something to think about....I cannot refute that argument. Kind of makes the Eddy Curry trade a brilliant move.

It almost happened with Dirk a few years ago, but that is the closest that I can remember.

 

[Shakes]

I think the idea is that Noah would be our defensive big man. Our PF would provide offense.

Is that good enough? Maybe not, but I don't really see what better plan you can have. It's pretty difficult to get a big man who is really good on both ends without lucking into the top pick in the right draft.

 

[??? ??????]

This is why people like Fred and myself don't think Gordon's defense is all that important in the grand realm of things. Gordon does a relative good job of staying between his man and the basket and he contests jumpers. That's really all you can ask from perimeter defense. Interior defense, on the other end, is much more important, as a good interior defender can turn the highest percentage shots on the basketball court into near impossible shots.

The idea with the Amare/Bosh trade is that Noah would be the defensive anchor. Unfortunately, Noah isn't an anchor yet, and might never be. But still, trading for Amare/Bosh, while retaining Rose/Gordon would be a step in the right direction. And we will have salary exceptions to play with. Veterans make pretty sound defenders. So if we can bring in the veteran equivalent to P.J. Brown (he was pretty solid defensively his year with us) when we are ready to compete, that type of deal could work too.

 

[houheffna]

I think what is lost in this conversation is that those past championship teams usually had good defenders at the wing positions. In the case of the Jordan/Pippen Bulls, their best defenders were the wing players. In previous seasons, having backcourt/wing deficiencies hurt the Bulls a lot.

If we are going to consider Noah the defensive anchor, we have a long way to go...

 

[dougthonus]

The one thing all championship teams typically have in common is that they are great.

People argue about trying to find the most common link, but people don't see the forest through the trees on that one a lot.

Most championship teams are great offensive and great defensively, and have at least one (often times two or three) future HOF players on them. So that often means they have a great big man, a great guard, great front court defense, and great backcourt defense. They also have great scorers, and good role players.

Right now, you could argue the Bulls don't have any piece of a championship team at all outside of maybe having the role players, and the hope that Rose becomes the future HOF anchor.

 

[badboy]

houheffna wrote:

I think what is lost in this conversation is that those past championship teams usually had good defenders at the wing positions. In the case of the Jordan/Pippen Bulls, their best defenders were the wing players. In previous seasons, having backcourt/wing deficiencies hurt the Bulls a lot.

If we are going to consider Noah the defensive anchor, we have a long way to go...

However it does seem like protecting the paint is of more importance. It also seemed like Pax drafted that way as well. Explains Tyrus over Aldridge and Noah over Hawes. I say Tyrus is getting better slowly yes but getting better and we should keep him as well as Noah. I think the Rush to trade for Bosh and Stoudemire could take us to another level however it might never take us to where we want to be.

I would rather try for Bynum. However our most realistic option to get better is probably to wait on Tyrus and Noah. Also not that I would love for us to trade Hinrich but we could for financial flexibility. As the 2010 offseason even if we don't get Bosh or Stoudemire can still be huge for us and resigning Gordon is of high importance to many.

I also think Blair with an improved Tyrus and Noah cover our most glaring hole of defensive rebounding better than any other option we have right now.

We need to keep wing defense in mind as well. Paint defense by itself doesn't guarantee us a championship either as shown by Detroit in recent years after winning one they couldn't win another even though they had the best post defense until losing Big Ben to us.

 

[badboy]

dougthonus wrote:

The one thing all championship teams typically have in common is that they are great.

People argue about trying to find the most common link, but people don't see the forest through the trees on that one a lot.

Most championship teams are great offensive and great defensively, and have at least one (often times two or three) future HOF players on them. So that often means they have a great big man, a great guard, great front court defense, and great backcourt defense. They also have great scorers, and good role players.

Right now, you could argue the Bulls don't have any piece of a championship team at all outside of maybe having the role players, and the hope that Rose becomes the future HOF anchor.

Yes this is also very true. In fact it seems to be more important to have a superstar than anything else. We have hope right now that Rose will be one for us.

 

[Bullsman24]

you oftentimes also have to have more than one all star.

the last teams to win the championship:

Celtics: Big 3
Spurs: Their Big 3
Heat: D-wade and Shaq
Pistons: starting lineup
Lakers: kobe/shaq
Bulls: jordan/pippen

this is why it's so important to get a good offensive player to put by rose, because i don't think gordon is quite enough to be a single #2 player, possibly a 2b though.

 

[??? ??????]

Gordon's a 1A in the NBA. The problem with the Rose/Gordon being the 1 and 2 on the team is that they're both in the backcourt. So other teams can pack in the lanes, stick a defender on Gordon with the directions (never leave to double) and then double him off screens, and that's where the problem lies. That backcourt, when Rose hits his prime, could probably lead us to 50 wins easily. It is going to give other teams fits. But when you get into the conference finals, the finals, etc. teams are going to do what I described above, and force guys like Deng, Thomas, Noah to beat them, and when you get to the later rounds, those teams are good at recovering to challenge shots for the guys they force you to try to run your offense through.

That's why getting an Amare Stoudemire or Chris Bosh is so appealing. It would diversify the offense. I think putting together a great penetrator, with an alltime great shooter, and a great scoring big man could be the recipe for an alltime great offense. The question is, would that offense be good enough to compensate for an average defense if Noah/Asik never become defensive anchors?

 

[MADman24]

I have to agree with Doug here, championship teams are usually great at nearly everything. Just look at the 4 teams left in the playoffs now none of them have any real weaknesses.

I'm of the mindset you acquire the best players you can, the teams that win titles almost always have multiple HOF players and truthfully Amar'e and Bosh are much closer to being that than Rose right now, we're all hoping Rose develops into a HOF caliber player but if we can get a guy closer to being one now I wouldn't let the fact their considered more of offensive players deter me.