Chicago Bullseye 89 - The Real 89

[Fred]

Here's the video I refer to in the Podcast...FYI, the Bucks were playing man to man:
http://blog.chicagobullseye.com/2010/02/05/kirksdefenderleavingtodoubleflv.aspx

Again, this has happened all year, ("There no room to drive" - Derrick Rose) and it's expected when you shoot so poorly. This is one of the intangibles that the writers and drones don't like to highlight or talk about. It doesn't show up on the stat sheet, except with the fact that our offense is ranked #27. One of the major reasons we scored only 14 points in the 4th against the Hornets was because Hinrich's man rarely moved past the free throw line to guard him. Kirk shot 34% on the road trip, 27% from the 3-point line, but suddenly he's untradeable. Please.

One more thing...the score was 80-79 when the shot was missed. Here are the plays that lead up to it in the 4th of the last Bucks game:

6:15 Tyrus Thomas makes free throw 1 of 2 78-73
6:15 Kirk Hinrich enters the game for John Salmons 78-73
6:15 Tyrus Thomas makes free throw 2 of 2 79-73
5:56 79-75 Michael Redd makes 5-foot hook shot
5:56 Luol Deng shooting foul (Michael Redd draws the foul) 79-75
5:56 Milwaukee full timeout
5:56 79-76 Michael Redd makes free throw 1 of 1
5:35 Joakim Noah enters the game for Brad Miller 79-76
5:31 Luol Deng misses 6-foot jumper 79-76
5:30 79-76 Hakim Warrick defensive rebound
5:11 Tyrus Thomas shooting foul (Michael Redd draws the foul) 79-76
5:11 79-77 Michael Redd makes free throw 1 of 2
5:11 79-78 Michael Redd makes free throw 2 of 2
4:56 Derrick Rose misses layup 79-78
4:54 Joakim Noah offensive rebound 79-78
4:43 Derrick Rose misses 16-foot jumper 79-78
4:41 Luol Deng offensive rebound 79-78
4:39 Hakim Warrick blocks Luol Deng's layup 79-78
4:39 Chicago offensive rebound 79-78
4:35 Derrick Rose offensive foul (Charlie Bell draws the foul) 79-78
4:35 Derrick Rose turnover 79-78
4:26 Joakim Noah shooting foul (Michael Redd draws the foul) 79-78
4:26 Joakim Noah technical foul (2nd technical foul) 79-78
4:26 79-79 Michael Redd makes technical free throw
4:26 79-80 Michael Redd makes free throw 1 of 2
4:26 79-80 Michael Redd misses free throw 2 of 2
4:26 Tyrus Thomas defensive rebound 79-80
4:26 Chicago full timeout
4:07 Kirk Hinrich misses 27-foot three point jumper 79-80
4:05 Chicago defensive rebound 79-80
4:05 Joakim Noah loose ball foul (Andrew Bogut draws the foul) 79-80

 

[WearShades]

I look forward to listening to the podcast. Thanks Fred.

 

[RPK]

great podcast as usual guys!

 

[jsain360]

50-60 wins w/ Gordon, come on, please!!!!!!!!, the Bulls would probably have the same record w/ Ben as they do now.

 

[mlewinth]

jsain360 wrote:

50-60 wins w/ Gordon, come on, please!!!!!!!!, the Bulls would probably have the same record w/ Ben as they do now.

I disagree with that. If we had a HEALTHY Gordon, we would be at least 5 games over .500. Look at all the close games this season where we shot 38%. Those games wouldnt of happened.

 

[houheffna]

50-60 wins w/ Gordon, come on, please!!!!!!!!, the Bulls would probably have the same record w/ Ben as they do now.

Unbelievable...Gordon is not worth 8-18 wins on this team...or any other team in the NBA...and Rose would not be where he is if Gordon was healthy and playing the season. I contend that their record arguably could be worse, could be better, not dramatically in either direction, but to act as if some guy who couldn't start on a lottery team puts the Bulls over the top is a bit outlandish...

And Tyrus deserves minimal credit...VDN hates that guy like HIV!!! Tyrus has had little to do with the play of the Bulls in recent games and he doesn't contribute night in and night out.

I am all for trading everybody but Rose and Noah. I want Kirk to go for expirings...but he has helped the team and is the most valuable piece to trade.

 

[Fred]

The team last year..Kirk missed half the season...Deng missed half the season. Miller and Salmons played in 25 games. Noah wasn't half the player he is today. And Rose wasn't playing at the level he is this year. Yet we were a .500 team.

This year, Kirk's missed only 7 games, and Tyrus has missed 23. That's it. Those are our only significant injuries to date. (Now Noah will miss a few, and we'll see how we do). Taj Gibson is a massive step up defensively on what we had.

Yet, we're 1 game under .500 after 47 games. What's missing here? Offensively, we're terrible.

 

[jsain360]

Fred wrote:

The team last year..Kirk missed half the season...Deng missed half the season. Miller and Salmons played in 25 games. Noah wasn't half the player he is today. And Rose wasn't playing at the level he is this year. Yet we were a .500 team.

This year, Kirk's missed only 7 games, and Tyrus has missed 23. That's it. Those are our only significant injuries to date. (Now Noah will miss a few, and we'll see how we do). Taj Gibson is a massive step up defensively on what we had.

Yet, we're 1 game under .500 after 47 games. What's missing here? Offensively, we're terrible.

I would love to see Hinrich's missed game total go up because he got traded and I won't have to see his 10ppg 38%fg, wide open jumpshot missing, bunny blowing, overrated defense, skills declining bum, I liked him better when he was wearing a mop-top for Kansas, Kirk is turning into the player I thought he would be, a 10-11ppg 4apg guy, I thought he would be a better shooter though.

 

[jsain360]

Intangibles are nice to have, but Kirk does not do anything real well, $9 mill is too much for that, he gets paid more than Andre Miller, what Kirk offers he needs to be on a contending team, he is useless to a mediocre or garbage team, his contract is prohibiting us, the org love for this guy is hampering us. Take heed to my warning if Kirk is the Bulls for the 2010 season, get ready for 5 more years of mediocrity and lottery basketball, Kirk off the team for 2010 = a return to the glory days, mark it down, and thats right, I got out my crystal ball(s).

 

[Fred]

jsain360 wrote:

50-60 wins w/ Gordon, come on, please!!!!!!!!, the Bulls would probably have the same record w/ Ben as they do now.

Here's a few people who disagree with you:

1. VDN
“Most of the sets are like that. Derrick penetrates, but the problem is defenses don’t leave Ben because Ben can hit those shots. But he also stretches the defense to give Derrick more areas to penetrate. That’s a huge positive. You watch the film and they lock up on Ben and make Derrick make plays.” – Vinny Del Negro, Feb. 12, 2009
“He’s not going to miss the open shot.” – Derrick Rose
From KC Johnson article in the Chicago Tribune titled “Derrick Rose, Ben Gordon 2 solid options late in games”
http://archives.chicagotribune.com/2009/feb/12/sports/chi-12-bulls-chicagofeb12

2. ROSE
"I'm happy he's here. He opens the lane. Everybody has to stick. You can't double team knowing you cannot leave him open. He can get hot real quick. I'm happy I'm playing with him now and I hope he's here for awhile." – Derrick Rose on Ben Gordon, 4.22.09
http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/smith_090420.html
3.
“There’s no room to drive.” – Derrick Rose, 11.13.2009 after loss to Toronto
http://archives.chicagotribune.com/2009/nov/13/sports/chi-13-bulls-chicago-nov13
John Salmons and Kirk Hinrich are struggling to hit jumpers and defenses are crowding the lane, limiting Rose’s avenues to drive.

“Toronto made it real clear they wanted us shooting jump shots” Rose said.

4. RAJON RONDO
“They’re struggling offensively. They scored at a high level last year. I’m sure they’re missing (Ben) Gordon. He made tough shots for them. They don’t have a lot of 3-point shooting guys. Most of their guys are slashers.” – Rajon Rondo
http://archives.chicagotribune.com/2009/dec/13/sports/chi-13-bulls-celtics-chicago-dec13

5. PHIL JACKSON
"There isn't the outside threat that Gordon presents or the streak scorer that he was." - Lakers coach Phil Jackson told reporters after Bulls loss to Lakers on 12.16.09.

6. JEFF VAN GUNDY
''[Gordon] was explosive offensively. He was irreplaceable, unless they did replace him, and they didn't. They are what they are, a mediocre team, because they lost their most irreplaceable player.” – Jeff Van Gundy, Jan 8th, 2010.

But you do have Houston agreeing with you.

 

[theCHI_Life84]

biggest advantage the jazz have over the bulls? jerry sloan>VDN.

i still think the ron artest move will do good for the lakers. ariza is phenomenal playing the passing lanes, but lacks the bully attitude that artest has. the lakers were BULLIED by the celtics in the finals. and this past weekend when the lakers were in boston, artest got off to an early start, getting in paul pierce's face before the ball went up for the tip. that is exactly what the lakers need to stand a chance against boston.

plus, he has been playing hurt as long as kobe has. kobe himself came on the radio and talked about ron having jammed fingers and plantiar fasomething in BOTH feet. add to it his (bonehead) concussion over the holidays, this guy is a warrior. hes been solid in his last few games, since his feet are starting to get better. also he isnt as much of a chucker as he was in houston, a lot of his shots are open 3s, and more often than not he will make an extra pass to a slashing teammate.

a lot of people here in LA didnt want to see ariza go, but they also dont understand what artest brings to the table that ariza couldnt. and all this derek fisher hate, i dont understand because although fisher is a liability on D nowadays, he runs the triangle very well, and the guy is a knock-down clutch shooter - last year's finals will show you that.

im a fan of artest and the nastiness he brings. and since i live in LA and my gf is a laker fan, i have to watch a lot of laker games, and he makes it a little easier to stomach. plus hes on my fantasy team.

 

[houheffna]

Here's a few people who disagree with you:

1. VDN
“Most of the sets are like that. Derrick penetrates, but the problem is defenses don’t leave Ben because Ben can hit those shots. But he also stretches the defense to give Derrick more areas to penetrate. That’s a huge positive. You watch the film and they lock up on Ben and make Derrick make plays.” – Vinny Del Negro, Feb. 12, 2009
“He’s not going to miss the open shot.” – Derrick Rose
From KC Johnson article in the Chicago Tribune titled “Derrick Rose, Ben Gordon 2 solid options late in games”
archives.chicagotribune.com/2009/feb/12/...2-bulls-chicagofeb12

2. ROSE
"I'm happy he's here. He opens the lane. Everybody has to stick. You can't double team knowing you cannot leave him open. He can get hot real quick. I'm happy I'm playing with him now and I hope he's here for awhile." – Derrick Rose on Ben Gordon, 4.22.09
www.nba.com/bulls/news/smith_090420.html
3.
“There’s no room to drive.” – Derrick Rose, 11.13.2009 after loss to Toronto
archives.chicagotribune.com/2009/nov/13/...-bulls-chicago-nov13
John Salmons and Kirk Hinrich are struggling to hit jumpers and defenses are crowding the lane, limiting Rose’s avenues to drive.

“Toronto made it real clear they wanted us shooting jump shots” Rose said.

4. RAJON RONDO
“They’re struggling offensively. They scored at a high level last year. I’m sure they’re missing (Ben) Gordon. He made tough shots for them. They don’t have a lot of 3-point shooting guys. Most of their guys are slashers.” – Rajon Rondo
archives.chicagotribune.com/2009/dec/13/...eltics-chicago-dec13

5. PHIL JACKSON
"There isn't the outside threat that Gordon presents or the streak scorer that he was." - Lakers coach Phil Jackson told reporters after Bulls loss to Lakers on 12.16.09.

6. JEFF VAN GUNDY
''[Gordon] was explosive offensively. He was irreplaceable, unless they did replace him, and they didn't. They are what they are, a mediocre team, because they lost their most irreplaceable player.” – Jeff Van Gundy, Jan 8th, 2010.

But you do have Houston agreeing with you.

Soooooo.....which one of these quotes lends itself to 50-60 wins? So you consider Gordon irreplaceable? If so, you need to watch the NBA I'm watching...the team that has him now has 3 other variations of him...

If you believe the Bulls would be as good as Detroit, Atlanta, Cleveland and Orlando and compete for a championship...because of Ben Gordon...you are fooling yourself...and you are dead wrong...

and you are missing the point of the whole season. The Bulls don't give a damn about a ben gordon...and kudos to them for that. They don't give a damn about Hinrich either at this point. They care about cap space...that is it. They are willing to trade everybody for cap space but their pg and center.

THEY DON'T NEED GORDON TAKING TOUGH SHOTS...that is Rose's job. Rose is the franchise player and he has to be given the opportunity to show that he is the franchise at this time.

Nobody is harping on the loss of Ben Gordon much anymore...we have had many of the same losses with Ben Gordon that we have had this year. Kendall Gill said it best, time to kill all of that talk of missing Ben Gordon...it shows just how sucky this team has been for the last decade, its a new day with a legit allstar on the roster, lets celebrate that...

 

[clonetrooper264]

Now I love Ben Gordon, but I really think that Rose wouldn't be an All-Star today if BG was still here. Gordon's absence, while it will hinder us short term, will benefit us long term if Rose continues to play great and be the All-Star we know he can be. Without Gordon, Rose has been forced to take the tough shots and be the franchise guy on this team and he's done pretty darn good so far. I'd love to have Gordon on this team too, but he's gone and there's nothing we can do about it. And to just throw in the 2010 thing...Rose being an All-Star has to look very appealing to someone out there, especially if he can do some stuff in the All-Star game.

 

[WearShades]

clonetrooper264 wrote:

Now I love Ben Gordon, but I really think that Rose wouldn't be an All-Star today if BG was still here. Gordon's absence, while it will hinder us short term, will benefit us long term if Rose continues to play great and be the All-Star we know he can be. Without Gordon, Rose has been forced to take the tough shots and be the franchise guy on this team and he's done pretty darn good so far. I'd love to have Gordon on this team too, but he's gone and there's nothing we can do about it. And to just throw in the 2010 thing...Rose being an All-Star has to look very appealing to someone out there, especially if he can do some stuff in the All-Star game.

I personally don't buy this. Rose was still deferring at the beginning of this season and that's w/o Gordon here. I think he just got to the point where he was comfortable taking over in those key situations.

Also, please check out my new avatar. It's awesome.

 

[houheffna]

I personally don't buy this. Rose was still deferring at the beginning of this season and that's w/o Gordon here. I think he just got to the point where he was comfortable taking over in those key situations.

he was deferring because it was part of his nature to defer...but he is not supposed to defer, especially to inferior players like Gordon...Gordon would be taking the shots if he was here and we most likely would not be as successful because he can't possibly do what Rose can do on the court...

 

[WearShades]

houheffna wrote:

I personally don't buy this. Rose was still deferring at the beginning of this season and that's w/o Gordon here. I think he just got to the point where he was comfortable taking over in those key situations.

he was deferring because it was part of his nature to defer...but he is not supposed to defer, especially to inferior players like Gordon...Gordon would be taking the shots if he was here and we most likely would not be as successful because he can't possibly do what Rose can do on the court...

I agree he shouldn't defer. I'm saying that his decision to stop doing that seems to be independent of his teammates. If Gordon was here, perhaps it would have taken a bit longer, but I believe it still would have happened by now anyway.

 

[houheffna]

I agree he shouldn't defer. I'm saying that his decision to stop doing that seems to be independent of his teammates. If Gordon was here, perhaps it would have taken a bit longer, but I believe it still would have happened by now anyway.

I disagree totally...Gordon would not have so easily deferred to Rose...and Rose would have willingly deferred to Gordon. That would have been counterproductive to this franchise...just as fans are hypnotized by Tyrus' athleticism, they are mesmerized by Gordon's late game heroics, ignoring the whole body of work of the athlete and whether he has the skills that warrant the position some seem to want to put him in. I just happen NOT to be one of those people, I think Rose is a better player and soon to be a MUCH better player. Having a 12mil/per undersized free shooting, offense stopping shooting guard with below average defensive skill is not going to help the Bulls win a championship.

Watch Sacramento...their star pg is the future. Their franchise player, Martin, a better player than Gordon, is in the way so to speak and now is fairly ineffective compared to his past offensive output. So now the trade rumors start, and its time to move him. Evans is the man now...that is the way it goes...

 

[WearShades]

houheffna wrote:

I agree he shouldn't defer. I'm saying that his decision to stop doing that seems to be independent of his teammates. If Gordon was here, perhaps it would have taken a bit longer, but I believe it still would have happened by now anyway.

I disagree totally...Gordon would not have so easily deferred to Rose...and Rose would have willingly deferred to Gordon. That would have been counterproductive to this franchise...just as fans are hypnotized by Tyrus' athleticism, they are mesmerized by Gordon's late game heroics, ignoring the whole body of work of the athlete and whether he has the skills that warrant the position some seem to want to put him in. I just happen NOT to be one of those people, I think Rose is a better player and soon to be a MUCH better player. Having a 12mil/per undersized free shooting, offense stopping shooting guard with below average defensive skill is not going to help the Bulls win a championship.

Watch Sacramento...their star pg is the future. Their franchise player, Martin, a better player than Gordon, is in the way so to speak and now is fairly ineffective compared to his past offensive output. So now the trade rumors start, and its time to move him. Evans is the man now...that is the way it goes...

I think you're very unlikely to find any disagreement on this board as to whether Rose is a better player than Gordon. At this point we're just arguing hypotheticals. I think Rose would have taken over regardless of whether Gordon was present, and you think Gordon's presence negates such a thing from happening at all. I will say I wouldn't want Gordon for the contract he currently has with Detroit, but I wouldn't have minded him whatsoever for the contract he would have signed had the Bulls not taken it away a year earlier.

 

[Shakes]

I don't see why we can just ignore the fact Gordon's had a horrible shooting slump this year, and we'd be worse off with him shooting threes than Hinrich/Salmons/Deng. I'm not saying it's his fault, I'm sure the injury has a lot to do with it, but the fact is he's a 30% three point shooter this year.

Now neither the Bulls nor Detroit could have predicted this, so I don't think it should weigh into the evaluation of the decision to sign or not sign him. But it surely should factor into any discussion on how many games the Bulls would have won if they had Gordon.

Given the Bulls would have had to trade Kirk to keep Gordon, and we saw how the team sucked for guard depth while Kirk was out, the extra 12 games Gordon missed would have really killed the team too (and killed me inside to see Pargo play that many minutes). Therefore I have to say that in hindsight we've probably won more games than we would have if we kept Gordon. Obviously I wouldn't have expected such an outcome at the start of the season, but that's the way it's panned out.

 

[Fred]

Shakes wrote:

I don't see why we can just ignore the fact Gordon's had a horrible shooting slump this year, and we'd be worse off with him shooting threes than Hinrich/Salmons/Deng. I'm not saying it's his fault, I'm sure the injury has a lot to do with it, but the fact is he's a 30% three point shooter this year.

Now neither the Bulls nor Detroit could have predicted this, so I don't think it should weigh into the evaluation of the decision to sign or not sign him. But it surely should factor into any discussion on how many games the Bulls would have won if they had Gordon.

Given the Bulls would have had to trade Kirk to keep Gordon, and we saw how the team sucked for guard depth while Kirk was out, the extra 12 games Gordon missed would have really killed the team too (and killed me inside to see Pargo play that many minutes). Therefore I have to say that in hindsight we've probably won more games than we would have if we kept Gordon. Obviously I wouldn't have expected such an outcome at the start of the season, but that's the way it's panned out.

Ben's shooting 43% from the field. We could only wish to have a shooting guard approaching that number. He's shooting 32% from the 3-point line....far below his career average of around 40%. Considering he's never had a year under 40% from the 3-point line in a 6-year career, logic would tell you that the ankle and groin injury is having a detrimental effect on his shooting. Logic would also tell you that he may not have been injured playing for the Bulls. Leg injuries are horrible for a 3-point shooter, unlike left thumb injuries, which don't effect the shot. Logic would also tell you that as he heals, his numbers will approach his career averages. They will, and we'll be still looking for someone to hit an outside jumper at a 40% pace from the 3-point line.

Regardless of whether or not we sign a free agent, it would have been smart to sign BG at 9 million per year in October of 2008. Then we could have moved him for talent or traded Hinrich for expirings. Either way, we would be in a much better place then where we are now. He's a proven 4th quarter performer. We don't have one besides Rose.