Dach?

[gopher72]

Could someone with a sense of talent potential please give me a read on Kirby Dach? He came in with a lot of hype and I recognize is still young. Is his current performance what you expected? What is his upside with the Hawks? With another team? Thanks!

 

[MassHavoc]

When everything is this bad it's hard to tell gold from fool's gold.

 

[Raskolnikov]

When everything is this bad it's hard to tell gold from fool's gold.

We ain’t even bad, we are middle of the road. We had a bad coach for a few years who made us play dumb **** broken ass hockey under a modern veil.

the sad part is we are inevitably going to be very bad when the Kane ride ends…what has briefly become the Kane/Fleury ride.

Losing those two is a point off offense and a point off defense. Probably you don’t enthusiastically sign foreigners without Kane so our Europe pipeline would shut and then we will truly experience what we deserve for the way we draft and sign free agents.

 

[Raskolnikov]

Dach is a lot like Toews except that he can’t win face offs, and I guess Toews couldn’t teach him to elevate a puck on a wrist shot because he lost that ability when Keith did somewhere back in 2016-17.

He’s a power forward not a center, And they should focus on making him Hossa not Toews. First of all.

He should probably be on Toews wing, that’s the best place for him. Give Kane “el Gato” and Entwhistle. Give Toews Dach and Kubalik.

 

[Granada]

Could someone with a sense of talent potential please give me a read on Kirby Dach? He came in with a lot of hype and I recognize is still young. Is his current performance what you expected? What is his upside with the Hawks? With another team? Thanks!

There are some shifts where Dach dominates in the O-zone. He knows how to use his body and is really the only player who can consistently shield defenders while possessing the puck and setting up plays in the attack zone. The problem is, he doesn't finish the play as often as he should. You can blame that on him, but also his line mates.

On a deeper team, I think Dach would put said team over the top. If he's traded to a powerhouse, he'll flourish. For his age, his hockey IQ is extremely high and his two-way game is quite solid. His two biggest weaknesses are his face-offs and his finishing ability.

Overall, I like Dach. I do see progression. I would not trade him yet.

 

[Raskolnikov]

There are some shifts where Dach dominates in the O-zone. He knows how to use his body and is really the only player who can consistently shield defenders while possessing the puck and setting up plays in the attack zone. The problem is, he doesn't finish the play as often as he should. You can blame that on him, but also his line mates.

On a deeper team, I think Dach would put said team over the top. If he's traded to a powerhouse, he'll flourish. For his age, his hockey IQ is extremely high and his two-way game is quite solid. His two biggest weaknesses are his face-offs and his finishing ability.

Overall, I like Dach. I do see progression. I would not trade him yet.

Yes…his body shielding makes him the best zone entry guy we have after Kane.
That’s and not winning face offs is why he is better off without Kane.

I say try him on Toews line and let him power it. You could try any of the pure scorers with the pairing…cat, Kane, or kubalik. But a counter attacker would let you get some defense done.

 

[hawkinmontreal]

Trade him, along with everyone else on this team not named the Cat or Hagel.

 

[KBIB]

There’s a lot to like about him, and there’s a lot to shake your head at, too.

When he gets a mis match, he’s a monster. When he’s playing against skill, he disappears. There’s the old saying power forwards take longer to develop so at least he has that going for him.

Honestly, I think his future is on a wing if he can’t take a step up in the face off department. I think if you get 20 goals out him this year it’s a win.

The problem with him is his compete. Some games he looks special, others you don’t even notice him. I’ve been on both sides with this kid because when he feels like playing he’s a treat to watch, but when he doesn’t he’s nothing more then a big kid out there who’s solid in his own zone.

If teams ask about him, you have to listen. The Hawks might have dodged a bullet taking him over Byram now that Byram might either be done playing hockey or forced into a reduced schedule due to concussions and Dach has value on potential still.

 

[Orestes]

Could someone with a sense of talent potential please give me a read on Kirby Dach? He came in with a lot of hype and I recognize is still young. Is his current performance what you expected? What is his upside with the Hawks? With another team? Thanks!

Glad you asked. I only occasionally can see a game on TV, I am primarily going with the numbers, so here goes: His Plus/Minus of -2 is respectable for this team. He has offensive zone presence, but doesn't finish, as his 14 points is not even close to a half-point per game. His average time on ice is 3rd among team forwards, even higher than Toews and Hagel, so he's reliable. He is tied for 5th among forwards in estimated point shares (1.0) behind DeBrincat, Kane, Hagel, and Kubalik. Face-off win percentage is poor, 33%. He is an unimpressive 13th on the club in Corsi For % In Even Strength with a 48 (for this measure, the opponent controls the puck more than half the time when he is on the ice at even strength). At best, Dach is a mixed bag. I give him a Does Not Meet Expectations.

 

[KBIB]

Glad you asked. I only occasionally can see a game on TV, I am primarily going with the numbers, so here goes: His Plus/Minus of -2 is respectable for this team. He has offensive zone presence, but doesn't finish, as his 14 points is not even close to a half-point per game. His average time on ice is 3rd among team forwards, even higher than Toews and Hagel, so he's reliable. He is tied for 5th among forwards in estimated point shares (1.0) behind DeBrincat, Kane, Hagel, and Kubalik. Face-off win percentage is poor, 33%. He is an unimpressive 13th on the club in Corsi For % In Even Strength with a 48 (for this measure, the opponent controls the puck more than half the time when he is on the ice at even strength). At best, Dach is a mixed bag. I give him a Does Not Meet Expectations.

When you look at where he was drafted and the talent taken after him, it was a bad pick.

Seider and Zegras are looking like the best players from that draft not counting Hughes who was taken before Dach. If Byram wasn’t broken with concussions, that’s three players right there who could have helped this team right now instead of being a player who’s treading water if he actually belongs in the NHL in Dach.

In any sport, a first round pick should get you a good player, but you shouldn’t **** up a top three pick. Kelly and the Hawks scouts have done more damage to this franchise wasting talent with horrible scouting then meets the eye.

When they have that yearly draft show on YouTube, I was under the assumption their bland and generic appraisals were just scripted. Turns out, that’s probably actual footage of these guys big braining. It’s nothing better then that scene in Moneyball where the old timers are saying shit like “he has nice hair”.

Blowman has a team the entire nhl copied when they were winning Cups.

He then tried switching his team up thru analytics and failed.

He then tried sporting a team thru skill no matter what size they were and failed.

Then he tried harvesting highly drafted players as reclimation projects and failed.

Last draft he focused on size and grit and that will surely fail too.

The fact Kelly is still here isn’t a good thing.

 

[Orestes]

When you look at where he was drafted and the talent taken after him, it was a bad pick.

Seider and Zegras are looking like the best players from that draft not counting Hughes who was taken before Dach. If Byram wasn’t broken with concussions, that’s three players right there who could have helped this team right now instead of being a player who’s treading water if he actually belongs in the NHL in Dach.

In any sport, a first round pick should get you a good player, but you shouldn’t **** up a top three pick. Kelly and the Hawks scouts have done more damage to this franchise wasting talent with horrible scouting then meets the eye.

When they have that yearly draft show on YouTube, I was under the assumption their bland and generic appraisals were just scripted. Turns out, that’s probably actual footage of these guys big braining. It’s nothing better then that scene in Moneyball where the old timers are saying shit like “he has nice hair”.

Blowman has a team the entire nhl copied when they were winning Cups.

He then tried switching his team up thru analytics and failed.

He then tried sporting a team thru skill no matter what size they were and failed.

Then he tried harvesting highly drafted players as reclimation projects and failed.

Last draft he focused on size and grit and that will surely fail too.

The fact Kelly is still here isn’t a good thing.

A case can be made for Dach with the best hair in that draft class.

 

[LordKOTL]

Could someone with a sense of talent potential please give me a read on Kirby Dach? He came in with a lot of hype and I recognize is still young. Is his current performance what you expected? What is his upside with the Hawks? With another team? Thanks!

He does a lot of thinks right for a kid his age, but there are some gaps in his game. For a center his FO% is absolutely abysmal. He does have good hockeyIQ though and seems to play the position decently both with and without the puck. Probably needs to put on some muscle, but again he's young.

For his draft position I think he's a little lower than expectations, but that doesn't mean he's a bad player or a bust in the least. He's not Toews as a 3oa and he's not Cam Barker at 3oa. Realistically he might be someone between a Frolik and a Ladd--a great 2nd tier player that would be a more-than-welcome asset to a team and someone who might put a team over the top, but not a franchise-core player like the expectations and hype were. At this point his game needs to develop more. Personally, I would have taken Byram over him in the draft--and even said so at the time.

I think once the 'hawks are eliminated this season I would take a look at how he does as a winger--like throw him in as one of Toews' wings and see if he can play as a winger as well--that should have a twofold purpose of fleshing out if he's a better winger than a center, and if not he can at least work with Toews in a game environment and learn from once of the best. For the 'hawks I am rating him right below "must keep"; he's not blocking anyone on the depth chart so if someone asks about him we better be getting a haul.

He's up for RFA at the end of the season, and I don't see him commanding much. He's also not arbitration-eligible. I'd qualify him, and maybe go as high as ~2M *max* in a "show-me" deal (keep in mind Hagel showed much more and got 1.5M), and if he's offer-sheeted for much more than that, take the 2nd rounder.

 

[KBIB]

I really think Dachs problem was being rushed.

I remember the draft and not one pundit said he was NHL ready and needed another year in juniors.

Was he bad? No, but he really shouldn’t have been playing limited minutes in the NHL and getting pushed around by plugs when he could have been developing his game against kids.

When there was that juniors tourney where he broke his wrist, he was so much better then everyone else. You saw a confident kid with a lot of poise. He isn’t that kid in the NHL and that’s the player the Hawks need.

It’s not a Hawks thing. Every kid now is pushed directly into the NHL with the cap being so low. Laff and Kakko don’t belong in the NHL right now, either.

As fans, we’ve been spoiled by the McDavids, Matthews, Sid’s and Kaners right here who transitioned flawlessly at 18 and played at a high level and GM’s really need to understand these guys were just better at adapting to the speed then all these so called “generational “ kids that seem to come out every year.

Some idiots were proclaiming Laff to be on the same level as McDavid. I’m sorry, Connor McDavid is a gift from god to hockey. Laff should be a damn fine player but he’s not nor never will be McDavid. Just like comparing Hughes to Kane. Why put that label on a kid? Kane is the three time cup winner who has completely shit on teams in the playoffs and will go down as one of the best big game players off all time along with the best American forward in NHL history. Hughes makes plays at high speed, Kane slows his game down. It’s not a good comparison.

But back to Dach, I’ve said he’s an Adam Creighton type. A solid second line center who can bum slay a mismatch and take pressure off the top line. And if he becomes that, I’m not mad. I said that on another forum and the little girls cried over it without understanding Creighton was rock solid while on the Hawks.

If you are expecting Dach to be Getzlaf or the kid on Winnipeg, you are in for a let down.

 

[Orestes]

Could someone with a sense of talent potential please give me a read on Kirby Dach? He came in with a lot of hype and I recognize is still young. Is his current performance what you expected? What is his upside with the Hawks? With another team? Thanks!

Dach is out of COVID protocol, I hope he can play in these two Wild games. He should be rested and he can use the positive vibes for him in this thread to recharge and have a big weekend. Go Hawks!

 

[LordKOTL]

I really think Dachs problem was being rushed.

I remember the draft and not one pundit said he was NHL ready and needed another year in juniors.

Was he bad? No, but he really shouldn’t have been playing limited minutes in the NHL and getting pushed around by plugs when he could have been developing his game against kids.

When there was that juniors tourney where he broke his wrist, he was so much better then everyone else. You saw a confident kid with a lot of poise. He isn’t that kid in the NHL and that’s the player the Hawks need.

It’s not a Hawks thing. Every kid now is pushed directly into the NHL with the cap being so low. Laff and Kakko don’t belong in the NHL right now, either.

As fans, we’ve been spoiled by the McDavids, Matthews, Sid’s and Kaners right here who transitioned flawlessly at 18 and played at a high level and GM’s really need to understand these guys were just better at adapting to the speed then all these so called “generational “ kids that seem to come out every year.

Some idiots were proclaiming Laff to be on the same level as McDavid. I’m sorry, Connor McDavid is a gift from god to hockey. Laff should be a damn fine player but he’s not nor never will be McDavid. Just like comparing Hughes to Kane. Why put that label on a kid? Kane is the three time cup winner who has completely shit on teams in the playoffs and will go down as one of the best big game players off all time along with the best American forward in NHL history. Hughes makes plays at high speed, Kane slows his game down. It’s not a good comparison.

But back to Dach, I’ve said he’s an Adam Creighton type. A solid second line center who can bum slay a mismatch and take pressure off the top line. And if he becomes that, I’m not mad. I said that on another forum and the little girls cried over it without understanding Creighton was rock solid while on the Hawks.

If you are expecting Dach to be Getzlaf or the kid on Winnipeg, you are in for a let down.

I wholeheartedly agree that Dach was rushed. But that just goes more towards my argument that the 'hawks should have went with Byram.

Even if Dach was rushed and might be a Creighton-type, I still think that combining the pick with the way he was handed turned it into a Meh. 3oA pick. The 'hawks should have used that pick to try to pick someone who would be a franchise cornerstone and develop them as such. Maybe Dach could have done it if handled by actual hockey minds and not an H&RBlock Reject, maybe not. The consensus I remember on Byram was that he would need another year in the Jr's and probably a year in the A--and that's okay. The 'hawks should have had eyes to the future and not trying to make a splash with Dach--nor should they have been hedging their bets that one of Boqvist, Beaudin, and Mitchell would be the next Keith. D take much longer to develop so the 'hawks should have been focused on the longer-developing core pieces than centers and wings. To wit: Keith, Seabrook, and Crawford took ~7-9 years to develop to cup-winning überstuds. Toews took 4. Kane took 3. Dach was not yead-and-shoulders above everyone else left, nor did he "fall" to 3rd. Ergo, I don't think anyone could use the excuse of, "he was the best left". He wasn't. I think (assuming they would be developed properly, and I didn't/don't trust Bowman the Beancounter in development) Dach, Byram, Turcotte, Cozens, and Seider all could have been viable as 3oa, and in that respect I think, and thought, that defense was a far more pressing need. My $0.02

If he's salvageable, like a Creighton, Ladd, or Frolik type, that's fine but it's not a piece to build around--like (at least in my estimation) guys like Debrincat and to a lesser extent, Hagel. I don't think the 'hawks should kill themselves to keep him, but on the flipside he's not blocking anyone on the depth chart and unless he's asking for the moon in terms of nis next deal, no reason to not keep him.

But if I were the 'hawks I'd still be looking for a top center in the interim. No reason not to keep any irons in the fire during the rebuild.

 

[KBIB]

I wholeheartedly agree that Dach was rushed. But that just goes more towards my argument that the 'hawks should have went with Byram.

Even if Dach was rushed and might be a Creighton-type, I still think that combining the pick with the way he was handed turned it into a Meh. 3oA pick. The 'hawks should have used that pick to try to pick someone who would be a franchise cornerstone and develop them as such. Maybe Dach could have done it if handled by actual hockey minds and not an H&RBlock Reject, maybe not. The consensus I remember on Byram was that he would need another year in the Jr's and probably a year in the A--and that's okay. The 'hawks should have had eyes to the future and not trying to make a splash with Dach--nor should they have been hedging their bets that one of Boqvist, Beaudin, and Mitchell would be the next Keith. D take much longer to develop so the 'hawks should have been focused on the longer-developing core pieces than centers and wings. To wit: Keith, Seabrook, and Crawford took ~7-9 years to develop to cup-winning überstuds. Toews took 4. Kane took 3. Dach was not yead-and-shoulders above everyone else left, nor did he "fall" to 3rd. Ergo, I don't think anyone could use the excuse of, "he was the best left". He wasn't. I think (assuming they would be developed properly, and I didn't/don't trust Bowman the Beancounter in development) Dach, Byram, Turcotte, Cozens, and Seider all could have been viable as 3oa, and in that respect I think, and thought, that defense was a far more pressing need. My $0.02

If he's salvageable, like a Creighton, Ladd, or Frolik type, that's fine but it's not a piece to build around--like (at least in my estimation) guys like Debrincat and to a lesser extent, Hagel. I don't think the 'hawks should kill themselves to keep him, but on the flipside he's not blocking anyone on the depth chart and unless he's asking for the moon in terms of nis next deal, no reason to not keep him.

But if I were the 'hawks I'd still be looking for a top center in the interim. No reason not to keep any irons in the fire during the rebuild.

That’s the problem with Kelly and his scouting. They fall in love with a player instead of taking the best player.

If memory serves me, Mackenzie was dropping hints thru the early part of the draft that the Hawks were taking Dach. Over Byram who was the bpa. Granted, with Byram being where he is with concussions right now the Hawks dodged a bullet, but honestly, not by much. When the pundits are saying Byram is a lot better then all the defenseman you have in your pipeline and you still don’t take him, that’s inept scouting, and that’s “smartest guy in the room” logic, and you cannot pull that shit with a third overall pick.

Frankly, I don’t want Kelly near any high draft pick. 2023 is a loaded draft and putting this guy in charge of a draft that could speed up a rebuild isn’t smart. Drafting Debrincat in the second round wasn’t some big brain revelation when the reason other teams didn’t take him was because of his size, not his talent. I’m positive every team after the hawks drafts him were going to use their next pick on the kid.

The problem is Kelly. This guys been shooting blanks on draft day outside of no brainer picks for almost a decade now and it’s a wonder how he still has a job.

Not that Blowman didn’t damage this team. Hartman has become a stud and what did the Hawks get in return? Beaudin who can’t even play at an AHL level?