Ep3 He Dropped The Ball is live

brett05

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Fred laments his beloved Blue

I should have focussed more on the end of the White Sox vacation and back to the reality of professional baseball, aka the American League.
 

Kush77

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Almost 1/3 of the Pirates' wins have come against the Cubs.

The Cubs are the biggest steaming pile of suck-ass I've ever seen.

I was glad to hear Fred rip Z, but not use him as a scapegoat (like Bradley last year and Sosa in 2004). Big Z is not a #1 and never will be. He needs to go. But he's not the only problem. I'm glad Fred pointed that out.

Lee needs to go. Ramirez needs to go. Lou needs to go. Mr April - aka Fukudome, needs to go. Dempster and Lilly should be moved for prospects.

The Cubs should just go with Young guys and Soriano, because no one is taking his deal.

At least Soriano is producing.

Can someone please explain to me why Soriano and Soto are hitting 6th and 7th, while the Mendoza brothers continue to bat in the heart of the order?
 

Fred

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Kush77 wrote:
Can someone please explain to me why Soriano and Soto are hitting 6th and 7th, while the Mendoza brothers continue to bat in the heart of the order?

Amen. I still can't believe what has happened to Ramirez. He used to destroy everything in the zone. I honestly can't remember a Cub falling off into the abyss like this, with the possible exception of Rick Wilkins.

2010 CUBS MLB PAYROLL: $133.5M
25-MAN ROSTER
+ Alfonso Soriano, OF - $18M
+ Carlos Zambrano, RHP - $17.875M
+ Aramis Ramirez, 3B - $15.75M
+ Kosuke Fukudome, OF - $13M
+ Derrek Lee, 1B - $13M

Top 5 paid Cubs. Despite the decent job Soriano has done, has there ever been a worse production to salary ratio than what these jerks have put up in 2010?
 

Fred

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In fairness to Z, the more I watched the replays, the more I felt that Lee and Ramirez could have tried harder for those balls. But you can't show up your teammates like that, especially when you failed so miserably outside of those plays.

And then he goes out to dinner with Guillen after the game...just unbelievable.
 

Kush77

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Fred wrote:
Kush77 wrote:
Can someone please explain to me why Soriano and Soto are hitting 6th and 7th, while the Mendoza brothers continue to bat in the heart of the order?

Amen. I still can't believe what has happened to Ramirez. He used to destroy everything in the zone. I honestly can't remember a Cub falling off into the abyss like this, with the possible exception of Rick Wilkins.

2010 CUBS MLB PAYROLL: $133.5M
25-MAN ROSTER
+ Alfonso Soriano, OF - $18M
+ Carlos Zambrano, RHP - $17.875M
+ Aramis Ramirez, 3B - $15.75M
+ Kosuke Fukudome, OF - $13M
+ Derrek Lee, 1B - $13M

Top 5 paid Cubs. Despite the decent job Soriano has done, has there ever been a worse production to salary ratio than what these jerks have put up in 2010?

Rick Wilkins ha ha. There's a blast from the past.

I agree, while Soriano's bounced back, so far, he'll never live up to the money he's paid.

He got that money based on 40/40 production and those days are long gone.

One man has to take the fall for that list - Jim Hendry. Everyone needs to go.

They Cubs need to go the way of the 1999 White Sox. "The Kids Can Play" remember that? That what the Cubs need to do.
 

brett05

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The problem is historically they can't play. Let me go thru the list of home grown talent in the last ten years. *crickets sounding* If it weren't for the the AAAA Cubs (the Pirates) the Cubs would be even more hopeless. The only guy I can think of with a proven record of being a winner of any sort from the Cubs is Carlos Marmol during that time, unless I am missing someone.

Perhaps Tyler Colvin will be next. Cashner and Castro? I wouldn't bet on any of them to be honest. It's more then Hendry, though he is the boss. And I am not sure the new owners are ready to "play ball". Just too busy making the park smell less like urine and getting their money back ASAP.
 

Kush77

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brett05 wrote:
The problem is historically they can't play. Let me go thru the list of home grown talent in the last ten years. *crickets sounding* If it weren't for the the AAAA Cubs (the Pirates) the Cubs would be even more hopeless. The only guy I can think of with a proven record of being a winner of any sort from the Cubs is Carlos Marmol during that time, unless I am missing someone.

Perhaps Tyler Colvin will be next. Cashner and Castro? I wouldn't bet on any of them to be honest. It's more then Hendry, though he is the boss. And I am not sure the new owners are ready to "play ball". Just too busy making the park smell less like urine and getting their money back ASAP.

Historically for position players, not pitchers.

But three position players have looked good, Soto, Colvin and Castro. So the kids can play.

And it's not like the 1999 Sox had tons of mainstays from that group (Mags, Lee, Konerko). They won 75 games. The Cubs have their three guys. The point is stop going with old vets that can't get the job don and let the kids play.
 

brett05

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I agree that they need something but I wouldn't but Soto or Castro in the "feel good" category

WhAt pitcher am I missing
 

Kush77

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brett05 wrote:
I agree that they need something but I wouldn't but Soto or Castro in the "feel good" category

WhAt pitcher am I missing

Zambrano is a pitcher your missing. You can bash him for the last few years but he was the Cubs' best starter from 2003 through 2008. Wells has been decent. Not as much this year but I don't need him to be Cy Young.

This isn't a plan to win the 2011 championship. This is a plan to get rid of the guys that clearly can't get the job done. Build around your young players and add good free agents along the way. Plus they would play the prospect they would hopefully acquire in trades for Lee, Ramirez, Dempster and Lilly.
They can start playing Vitters when they dump Ramirez.

What do you mean the "feel good" category? Soto and Castro are two legit young players for the Cubs.

Cubs prospects overall have been terrible. I know that. But I have a little more faith in Tim Wilken than the old regime.
 

brett05

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Sorry this took so long, got caught up in the NBA talk.

Just looking at their first pick from 1980 thru 2005:

1980 Don Schulze – Bust
1981 Joe Carter – Great player for someone other than the Cubs
1982 Shawon Dunston – Above average player, never really reached potential, but a DEFINITE plus!
1983 Jackie Davidson – Bust
1984 Drew Hall – Bust
1985 Rafael Palmeiro – HOF, roids not withstandings.
1986 Derrick May – Marginal Player
1987 Mike Harkey – Bust
1988 Ty Griffin – Bust
1989 Earl Cunningham – Bust
1990 Lance Dickson – Bust
1991 Doug Glanville – Marginal Player
1992 Derrick Wallace – Bust
1993 Brooks Kieschnick – Bust
1994 Jayson Peterson – Bust
1995 Kerry Wood – Average pitcher, would rate higher, but Cubs never addressed his delivery in time
1996 Todd Noel – Bust
1997 Jon Garland – Slightly above average pitcher, but developed not by the Cubs
1998 Corey Patterson – Average player, Bust with Cubs
1999 Ben Christensen – Still unknown why he was drafted, classless
2000 Luis Montanez – Bust
2001 Mark Prior – Bust
2002 Bobby Brownlie – Bust
2003 Ryan Harvey – Bust
2004 Grant Johnson – Bust
2005 Mark Pawelek – Bust

Other notables:

Maddux and Moyer – HOF
Grace – AS
Wilkins – Bad
Alex Arias - Bust
Matt Walbeck – Bust
Kevin Roberson – Bust
Gary Scott – Bust
Kevin Orie – Bust
Mike Wuertz – Decent Reliever
Scott Downs - Avg
Dave Kelton – Bust
Bobby Hill – Bust
Ryan Theriot – Above Average (I really like him actually)
Ricky Nolasco – Nice pitcher, developed by Marlins though
Geovany Soto – Too early to tell
Khalil Greene – Bust
Rich Hill - Bust
Tim Lincecum – Drafted, but never signed
Eric Patterson – Bust

So what does this all mean? In 30 years of drafting, the Cubs don’t show a good track record when it comes to youth. They hit home runs on Maddux, Moyer, Grace, with Carter, Palmeiro, and Nolasco helping out in trades. But shouldn’t his be more? That’s what is scary. Can’t be the same scouts and developers in the minors all these years, could it? That’s what should scare Cub Fans. The lack of ability to develop players.

They need to trade for young players that have already been developed by other organizations. Can Hendry make those kinf of moves?
 

Kush77

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Please. If I put a list of Sox first round picks it would be just as bad.

Drafting in MLB is like no other sport. Is there any team that has 4, maybe 5, first round draft picks in their lineup - that they developed? I doubt it.

Cubs have young guys that need to play now and dump the vets. Bottom line. That was the point I was making. do what the 1999 White sox did.

The 1999 White Sox didn't go that route because they had tons of top-level talent. They did it because they had a decent amount of good minor leaguers that could fill in during a rebuliding phase.

They still had Frank Thomas on the team. the Cubs can do the same and still win 75 games like the 1999 Sox did.
 

Kush77

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White Sox first round picks since 1980. Outside of great 4 year run with Thomas, Ventura, McDowell and Fernandez, nothing to write home to mother about.

2010 Chris Sale LHP Florida Gulf Coast University 13
2009 Jared Mitchell OF LSU 23
2008 Gordon Beckham SS Univ. of Georgia 8
2007 Aaron Poreda LHP San Francisco 25
2006 Kyle McCulloch RHP Texas 29
2005 Lance Broadway RHP TCU 15
2004 Josh Fields 3B Oklahoma State 18
2003 Brian Anderson OF U. of Arizona 15
2002 Roger Ring LHP San Diego State 18
2001 Kris Honel RHP Providence HS, New Lenox, 16
2000 Joe Borchard OF Camarillo, CA 12
1999 Jason Stumm RHP Centralia, WA 15
1999 Matt Ginter RHP Mississippi State U. 22
1998 Robert Wells RHP Baylor U. 16
1997 Jason Dellaero SS U of South Florida 15
1996 Bobby Seay LHP Sarasota, FL 12
1995 Jeff Liefer 3B Long Beach State U 25
1994 Mark Johnson C Warner Robbins, GA 26
1993 Scott Christman LHP Oregon State U 17
1992 Eddie Pearson 3B Bishop St JC 24
1991 Scott Ruffcorn RHP Baylor U 25
1990 Alex Fernandez RHP Miami-Dade South CC 4
1989 Frank Thomas 1B Auburn U 7
1988 Robin Ventura 3B Oklahoma State U 10
1987 Jack McDowell RHP Stanford U 5

1986 Grady Hall LHP Northwestern U 20
1985 Kurt Brown C Glendora, CA 5
1984 Tony Menendez RHP Carol City, FL 20
1984 Tom Hartley OF Vancouver, WA 26
1983 Joel Davis RHP Jacksonville, FL 13
1982 Ron Karkovice C Orlando, FL 14
1981 Daryl Boston OF Cincinnati, OH 7
1980 Cecil Espy OF San Diego, CA 8
 

Kush77

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Here's the roster of the 1999 "the kids can play" White Sox.

Brook Fordyce
Paul Konerko
Ray Durham#
Mike Caruso*
Greg Norton#
Carlos Lee
Chris Singleton*
Magglio Ordonez
Frank Thomas

So the Sox had 3 vets (Thomas, Durham and Fordyce) and 6 "kids" (Konerko, Caruso, Norton, Lee, Singleton and Ordonez)

None of the "kids" were first round picks by the Sox. So your argument that the Cubs can't do what the 1999 White Sox did because they have a poor history of drafting in the first round is irrelevant.

The White Sox went that route in 1999 because JR didn't want to keep paying big money for a team that didn't live up to expectations in 97 or 98. It started in 97 with the White Flag trade. Then after 98 they didn't bring back Ventura or Albert Belle.

The Sox didn't go with a youth movement because they had 10 of the Top 50 Baseball America prospects. They did it because JR was going on the cheap for a couple years after spending big on teams that didn't win.

"The kid can play" was a marketing slogan. It wasn't the slogan of the Sox's front office.

So back to my original point - the Cubs need to do what the White Sox did in 1999. Dump the high-priced vets that clearly can't get the job done, and play the young guys. Regardless of where they were drafted.
 

brett05

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My issue wasn't just first round picks it was how they deal with their top prospects regardless o where they get drafted

On the whole it is terrible
They simply struggle mightily with developing talent just look at their picks besides first rounders as I did

They aren't a 75 win team now forget about what they would do by playing six "rookies"
 

Kush77

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brett05 wrote:
My issue wasn't just first round picks it was how they deal with their top prospects regardless o where they get drafted

On the whole it is terrible
They simply struggle mightily with developing talent just look at their picks besides first rounders as I did

They aren't a 75 win team now forget about what they would do by playing six "rookies"

You're missing whole point again.

I don't care about winning 75 games, that's not the point.

Again, this isn't a plan to win the 2011 World Series.

The point is to move guys who haven't gotten the job done. Guys like Dempster, Lilly, Fukudome, Lee and Ramirez. Those guys, and their massive salaries would come off the books.

In the meantime, you fill those rolls with rookies or young 2nd/3rd year guys. If you win 50 games, it doesn't matter, because the point isn't to win the World Series.

The goal is to develop the young guys you have now, acquire some more young guys in potential trades, and with the money saved from the players that are hopefully traded, you use that money to sign quality free agents after 2011 and beyond.

You keep bringing up the history of the Cubs' drafting. Baseball drafting is a crap shoot. How many key players from the 2005 Sox were drafted and developed by the organization? Not many. Rowand, Buehrle and Crede? I'm not sure.

Tim Wilken was hired as the new director of scouting after 2005. Let's see how his picks turn out over the next few years. Whoever drafted Don Schulze in 1980 has nothing to do with what Tim Wilken is doing today.
 

Diddy1122

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The Cubs will continue to suck as long as Icobod Crane, Hendry, & Lou are with this team. If Ricketts is serious about turning this franchise around & not just "improving the Cubs experience" then it needs to start by firing all 3 of these guys.

I agree Kush, put the kids out there. Say goodbye to Sori, A-Ram, Lee, Big Z, Fuk, & Theriot. Theriot has 7 extra base hits in 300 AB's! That is beyond awful for a "leadoff" hitter or any hitter in this league. This team is an absolute joke & it's a damn shame that guys like Silva, Byrd, & Marshall are wasting great years in the toilet bowl that is Wrigley Field. I've watched a total of 6 games this year on TV & only went to 1 game (Sunday's W against the Sox @ the Cell). It's no wonder my niece, who I've been grooming to be a Cubs fan for 8yrs now has now switched to sporting Black & White. What a joke of a team & a joke of a franchise right now.
 

Kush77

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Diddy1122 wrote:
The Cubs will continue to suck as long as Icobod Crane, Hendry, & Lou are with this team. If Ricketts is serious about turning this franchise around & not just "improving the Cubs experience" then it needs to start by firing all 3 of these guys.

I agree Kush, put the kids out there. Say goodbye to Sori, A-Ram, Lee, Big Z, Fuk, & Theriot. Theriot has 7 extra base hits in 300 AB's! That is beyond awful for a "leadoff" hitter or any hitter in this league. This team is an absolute joke & it's a damn shame that guys like Silva, Byrd, & Marshall are wasting great years in the toilet bowl that is Wrigley Field. I've watched a total of 6 games this year on TV & only went to 1 game (Sunday's W against the Sox @ the Cell). It's no wonder my niece, who I've been grooming to be a Cubs fan for 8yrs now has now switched to sporting Black & White. What a joke of a team & a joke of a franchise right now.

I agree, they need to completely clean house.

Lou has to go. Again, why are Lee and Ramirez still batting 3/4?

Soriano's contract is bad, but he leads the team in HR, RBIs, OPS and runs. He should be moved up in the order. Try out Byrd, Soriano, Soto as the 3-4-5. Why the hell not? All this current lineup is doing is getting their ass handed to them by the Pirates.

I wrote this column about the Cubs for my paper before the season. I posted in another thread a few weeks ago. Unfortunately, I've been dead-on. Read it on the next show Fred.


2010 Cubs: Just more of the same
By Brian Kush


Every year at this time I have friends who are Cubs fans that try to get me pumped up for the upcoming season.

Every year I give them the same negative response. I've been told I'm the type of Cubs fan that likes to be miserable. That if the Cubs actually won it all I wouldn't know what to do with myself because I couldn't complain.

I just like to think of myself as a realist. And this is my realistic look at the 2010 Chicago Cubs.

It's more of the same.

It's basically the same team that has failed to have any playoff success.

The Cubby core of Derrek Lee, Aramis Ramirez, Alfonso Soriano and Carlos Zambrano have failed to get it done. And I have no reason to think 2010 will be any different. It's the same group of players, just older.

I'll give credit to GM Jim Hendry for this -- at least he didn't make the team worse in the offseason like he did heading into 2009.

But the moves that were made really don't have me leaping to drop 50 bucks to sit in the Bud Light Bleachers.

One of the main reasons I feel this way is Carlos Zambrano.

I came to the realization over this offseason that he just isn't a No. 1 starter.

I've defended him through the blowups and even through the fight with former catcher Michael Barrett. But after his mediocre 2009, which featured another one of his blowups, I've jumped off the Big Z bandwagon.

The problem with Zambrano isn't his stuff. We've all seen him dominate. And when he's on, there are few pitchers better. But he's not on enough. That's the problem.

No. 1 starters, especially the ones with Zambrano's price tag, don't have stretches of poor play. Even in Zambrano's good seasons he would have extended periods of poor outings. That's not supposed to happen when you're the ace of a team trying to contend for a World Series.

The occasional bad outing, maybe consecutive bad starts -- sure. But Zambrano has the ability to go into a 1-month funk, and that's just unacceptable from your No. 1 starter.

Then there's the Cubs' offense. It can get hot and it can get equally cold.

Guys like Lee and Ramirez are fine offensive players. But both are entering their seventh full season as cornerstones of the Cubs' lineup and what do they have to show for it? Six straight playoff losses in the Lou Piniella era. Nine straight for the franchise if you want to go back to 2003.

So I don't expect much from the 2010 Cubs. I find that to be the best approach as a Cubs fan -- don't expect anything.

But to end on a positive note, I expect Soriano to have a bounceback season and Carlos Marmol to make the all-star team.
 

Fred

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Kerry Wood was not an average pitcher. He was a great pitcher who was always injured. When healthy, he was one of the best to ever pitch in a Cubs uniform. The problem was, he was rarely healthy.

And I wouldn't call Prior a bust. He was arguably the best pitcher on the best Cubs team since 1984. He had fantastic 2003. He had a ton of freak injuries, and he couldn't overcome the most serious ones. But he more than made up for his contract in 2003, and for parts of 2004.
 

brett05

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I took another look and I would say Kerry Wood was an above average pitcher. He did make two all star teams. Probably could have been great if someone other then the Cubs was the one training him in the minors. Prior was just great. There really wasn't much the Cubs or anyone else needed to teach him. The talk was he would go from draft to MLB starter. However, he's a bust. He had one solid season and that just doesn;t cut it for a pick that landed in their laps.

If Prior had freak injuries, they were not documented well. Everyone kept asking about arm problems etc, but this was tighter then Krause sharing credible information on his team's future. For Prior, I truly believe he was 100% mental. It's all in his head. I wish him luck on his attempted return this summer.
 

brett05

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Kush77 wrote:
None of the "kids" were first round picks by the Sox. So your argument that the Cubs can't do what the 1999 White Sox did because they have a poor history of drafting in the first round is irrelevant.

I am not making the comparison of first round picks. I used them as well as all the prospects that got talked about in my recollection in how the Cubs can't use the affect of dump the vets and play young. They have a poor track record with young talent, at least they do with their own young talent.

I'll mention briefly the White Sox, but it's really a separate thread. The White Sos didn't go young because the payroll wasn't producing. (From 1990 thru 1998, they were first twice, second five times albeit at times for a weak division) Jerry slashed the payroll because the fans weren't coming out and supporting the product.

So let's look at the Cubs. What could they get for their high priced veterans? Soriano, Z, Lee, A-Ram. Not much of anything and that assumes they eat large portions of those salaries. Ignoring the divisions for a moment, there are not teams lined up to give the Cubs a Jay Bruce for a Carlos Z or even a Ted Lilly.

IMO, the Cubs need to sign the right players in free agency (They do spend tons of money, but too often it backfires on them). Then they need to acquire some young players that are pretty much developed but perhaps slightly under achieving so that they can be shaped by the Cubs next manager - Ryne Sandberg.

I am at the point where I am completely convinced that he is the answer to the Cubs problems. Not the only answer, but I think he can make the youth they have/get into their maximum potential. As a Sox fan, I am now a shill for Ryno.
 

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