How bad is Tyrus Thomas?

[AirP]

Tyrus was on the statistical pace to put up these numbers in 36 minutes(starter minutes)...

PER 36
T. Thomas 45% FG, 78% FT, 11.3 FG, 14.2 PTS, 8.4 REB, 1.5 STL, 2.5 BLK, 2.1 TO

Interesting enough... a 22 year old who just got 58 million for 5 years put up these numbers last year per36... his contract year...

PER 36
Josh Smith 46% FG, 71% FT, 14.2 FG, 17.5 PTS, 8.4 REB, 1.5 STL, 2.8 BLK, 3.1 TO

What's the difference between these 2 players? Josh Smith hasn't been "controlled" where he's had the green light to shoot the ball(even though he's worse then Tyrus) and has been given big minutes.

Tyrus has gotten big minutes for one stretch for the Bulls... what did he do? The 10 game stretch before the new guys got here(Nearly 36 minutes a night)...

35.2 Min, 15.8 Pts, 49% FG%, 9.3 Reb, 1.9 Ast, 1.7 Stl, 2.5 Blks

Right now at his age and maturity, I don't think he can handle sharing a position, he's a guy at this point in his career that needs to have his coach put his confidence in him and allow him to play big minutes.

When Tyrus looses focus he does look like a weak jumpshooting SF that can block shots... when he has his focus, he looks like a force on the court.

Hard to believe at age 22 putting up the stats Smith was he was a big free agent... yet Tyrus at the same statistical pace is a dog to a lot of Bulls fans.

Whatever team Tyrus is on next season, if they give him 35+ minutes, they're going to probably get the player that we had for a 10 game stretch.

 

[dougthonus]

One big problem with this analysis is that teams actually focus on defending Josh Smith to some extent whereas Tyrus is typically the worst or 2nd worst offensive player on the court and the guy people cheat off of.

Also, he shoots a lower percentage on a lower volume of attempts, Smith has to take more difficult shots due to more defensive attention and the fact that there are a finite number of cherry picking type shots per game, and Tyrus's FG% includes a much greater amount of those percentagewise than Smith's is likely to given that Smith takes so many more shots.

Still, I get what you're saying, his numbers aren't bad when he plays a lot. I agree with that. I definitely think he needs someone to just commit to him completely, the Bulls came much closer to doing that this year.

I think many Bulls fans are too quick to give up on Tyrus, just lower the bar to "this guy can be a solid starting caliber PF" and stop worrying about what he could be if he put together everything with his athleticism.

It'd be nice to get Tyrus to focus on defensive rebounding when on that end of the court and staying with his man, because his defense isn't real good despite the gaudy shot blocking numbers.

 

[AirP]

dougthonus wrote:

One big problem with this analysis is that teams actually focus on defending Josh Smith to some extent whereas Tyrus is typically the worst or 2nd worst offensive player on the court and the guy people cheat off of.

Also, he shoots a lower percentage on a lower volume of attempts, Smith has to take more difficult shots due to more defensive attention and the fact that there are a finite number of cherry picking type shots per game, and Tyrus's FG% includes a much greater amount of those percentagewise than Smith's is likely to given that Smith takes so many more shots.

Still, I get what you're saying, his numbers aren't bad when he plays a lot. I agree with that. I definitely think he needs someone to just commit to him completely, the Bulls came much closer to doing that this year.

I think many Bulls fans are too quick to give up on Tyrus, just lower the bar to "this guy can be a solid starting caliber PF" and stop worrying about what he could be if he put together everything with his athleticism.

It'd be nice to get Tyrus to focus on defensive rebounding when on that end of the court and staying with his man, because his defense isn't real good despite the gaudy shot blocking numbers.

I'm not sure that he gets gaurded better, but let's flip the coin, Smith also gets into better flow of the game where he doesn't have to wait huge amounts of time to get another shot. If Tyrus shot more, they'd guard him more which would lead to more chances to attack the basket and getting to the line much more... where Tyrus' good FT shooting would become much more important.

I doubt Tyrus is in Chicago starting next year, but I also think season 4 will be his season where he becomes a "good" player nearly every night... all at the ripe age of 23.

 

[Hendu0520]

Smith is by no means the focus of a defense. Johnson and Bibby get top billing and then Horford for his low post presence. I watched a lot of Hawks games this year, he is a scrappy player who pretty much scores in the open court. He is more of a 3 then Thomas so that is a difference and seems a bit more under control but probably because he plays more. Thomas is a bigger focus than most people think of teams because NOah isn't a threat at all and they have to watch his jumper and the dunks, no team just leaves Tyrus they always run at him.

But yah I don't understand why he gets hammered. Tyrus is coming along just fine and will definately be one of the best shotblockers next year. The problem for Thomas is that Noah has developed into a top shotblocker as well so it isn't as important to us.

 

[Hendu0520]

Oh and alost forgot, this offseason is extremely important for Thomas though, if he puts on some wieght and show he's matured he should come into his own. I keep saying we shouldn't trade him unless it will get us a player who gets us to at least the Eastern Conference Finals. Bosh but not Amare.

 

[JimmyBulls]

The biggest problem with Tyrus is that he's a flippin lazy and stupid player. Until that improves, he's a guy that you can't keep on the floor for 36 minutes because he'll kill your team.

From a development standpoint, Tyrus strikes me as a guy that wants to skip the lower levels of learning the game, and move right to the master level. He have to understand with his physical gifts the best thing he can do is keep it simple. He have to get this idea of being a future superstar out of his head, and just be happy with being a good roleplayer. It would serve him well to consider and study the game of Kevin Willis. Here is a guy that made a career with two shots and hardwork. K-Will had the jumphook in the lane, a face up jumper, and he outworked the competition. If Tyrus would focus on getting stronger, and take K-Will's game as a template he'll be exactly what the Bulls need in a starting four. Unfortunately, the kid's basketball mind is just too young and immature.

 

[Newskoolbulls]

JimmyBulls wrote:

The biggest problem with Tyrus is that he's a flippin lazy and stupid player. Until that improves, he's a guy that you can't keep on the floor for 36 minutes because he'll kill your team.

From a development standpoint, Tyrus strikes me as a guy that wants to skip the lower levels of learning the game, and move right to the master level. He have to understand with his physical gifts the best thing he can do is keep it simple. He have to get this idea of being a future superstar out of his head, and just be happy with being a good roleplayer. It would serve him well to consider and study the game of Kevin Willis. Here is a guy that made a career with two shots and hardwork. K-Will had the jumphook in the lane, a face up jumper, and he outworked the competition. If Tyrus would focus on getting stronger, and take K-Will's game as a template he'll be exactly what the Bulls need in a starting four. Unfortunately, the kid's basketball mind is just too young and immature.

well said.

 

[engies]

Stats can be good. But stats can also be fools gold. What those stats dont tell you is

*amount of effort they play with
*amount of strength
*ability to stay in front of their man
*ability to stop players driving through the lane with ease
*being in the right position to grab rebounds
*ability to box out
*ability to set screens
*general basketball IQ (as in learning when its a good time to do a spin move in the lane, when its good to shoot a jumper, etc etc)

These are the things that hold Tyrus back & some of these qualitys Josh Smith has.

I like Thomas, I hope he realizes these weaknesses and works on them. He has improved. He just needs to learn a hell of a lot more & improve these weaknesses. If he did then you could give him the Josh Smith treatment

 

[AirP]

JimmyBulls wrote:

The biggest problem with Tyrus is that he's a flippin lazy and stupid player. Until that improves, he's a guy that you can't keep on the floor for 36 minutes because he'll kill your team.

The only problem with that statement is when we did that 10 game stretch where he averaged 35+ minutes... we won 7 out of 10 games with one of those losses being an overtime game in Dallas.

Small amount of minutes - Tyrus looses focus and makes many mistakes and forces things a lot of the time(trying to do too much) which makes him a very inconsistant player.

Large amount of minutes - Tyrus is focused, lets the game come to him and he looks like a very good player.

I don't know how one goes from being "stupid" with small minutes and then when given large minutes becomes a completely different player and playing smart... to me it's the difference of trying to make things happen instead of letting the game come to him. At some point you have to start to figure out the kid has a problem splitting time... sure it's his problem because of his mentality/immaturity.

This offseason is HUGE for Tyrus... weather he's traded or not.

 

[AirP]

engies wrote:

Stats can be good. But stats can also be fools gold. What those stats dont tell you is

*amount of effort they play with
*amount of strength
*ability to stay in front of their man
*ability to stop players driving through the lane with ease
*being in the right position to grab rebounds
*ability to box out
*ability to set screens
*general basketball IQ (as in learning when its a good time to do a spin move in the lane, when its good to shoot a jumper, etc etc)

These are the things that hold Tyrus back & some of these qualitys Josh Smith has.

I like Thomas, I hope he realizes these weaknesses and works on them. He has improved. He just needs to learn a hell of a lot more & improve these weaknesses. If he did then you could give him the Josh Smith treatment

Funny, almost all these problems disappeared when he was counted on playing 35+ minutes a game for that

I'm not saying it's right that Tyrus looses focus when he splits time at PF, I'm just saying to me he looks like a different player when he gets solid minutes night after night compared to inconsistant minutes night after night. It happened his rookie year when Nocinoi went out and it happened this year with Gooden out and we finally shortened the rotation.

I remember that 10 game streak... a lot of Tyrus bashers said he turned the corner(he had been playing better since Gooden went out) in development.... then Timmy came in 12 straight minutes and that was the end of Tyrus' consistant good play. I even remember writting... well... the good Tyrus Thomas is gone this season. Although he still had good games after that, he never looked the same as he did before the trade deadline. We got a glimpse of what he could be. You can't be a stupid player and all of a sudden just make almost all the right plays for that long of a stretch.

 

[dougthonus]

Small amount of minutes - Tyrus looses focus and makes many mistakes and forces things a lot of the time(trying to do too much) which makes him a very inconsistant player.

Large amount of minutes - Tyrus is focused, lets the game come to him and he looks like a very good player.

I don't know how one goes from being "stupid" with small minutes and then when given large minutes becomes a completely different player and playing smart... to me it's the difference of trying to make things happen instead of letting the game come to him. At some point you have to start to figure out the kid has a problem splitting time... sure it's his problem because of his mentality/immaturity.

This offseason is HUGE for Tyrus... weather he's traded or not.

There is always the argument of whether Tyrus is better when he plays more or plays more because he's playing better. I tend to agree with your take that he is better when he gets more time and in steady doses. However, I think the argument that he plays more when he plays better has some merit. Probably something between those points closer to he's better with more time.

 

[AirP]

dougthonus wrote:

Small amount of minutes - Tyrus looses focus and makes many mistakes and forces things a lot of the time(trying to do too much) which makes him a very inconsistant player.

Large amount of minutes - Tyrus is focused, lets the game come to him and he looks like a very good player.

I don't know how one goes from being "stupid" with small minutes and then when given large minutes becomes a completely different player and playing smart... to me it's the difference of trying to make things happen instead of letting the game come to him. At some point you have to start to figure out the kid has a problem splitting time... sure it's his problem because of his mentality/immaturity.

This offseason is HUGE for Tyrus... weather he's traded or not.

There is always the argument of whether Tyrus is better when he plays more or plays more because he's playing better. I tend to agree with your take that he is better when he gets more time and in steady doses. However, I think the argument that he plays more when he plays better has some merit. Probably something between those points closer to he's better with more time.

I'll agree he does get more minutes when scheduled to play smaller minutes... when he's playing better. But when he KNOWS he's getting big minutes, when he KNOWS he's going to be on the court longer his game looks much better... he looks focused and he doesn't try to force things(letting the game come to him). He's young, he's still trying to broaden his game, the less he tries to force things the better and that is usually done through big minutes. Think of it this way... if you're expecting a lot from yourself as a player and you figure you're only going to get a 5-6 minute stretch here and there... you want to make an impact, you want to help your team and you will sometimes try to force plays to make a difference on the court. But if you're out there for nearly 9 minutes a quarter you can sit back and pick your spots to help the team.

Like I said, I'm not making excuses for the kid, I'm just explaining what it looks like to me and the best way for the Bulls to get production from him.

I'd like to know... how many players drafted near the top of the draft have panned out without getting large minutes early on. Usually bad teams have no other options other then to play their highly drafted players... but good teams that get high drafted players seem to get "busts". I believe there's a direct corrolation to highly drafted players not producing like one would think and playing time early in their careers. The more a team has to lean on that young player, the more they they get use to carrying the team. Thank god we didn't just sit Rose in favor of Hinirch.

 

[TheStig]

Smith also has three point range and stretches the floor which lowers his fg% too.

 

[AirP]

TheStig wrote:

Smith also has three point range and stretches the floor which lowers his fg% too.

He has 3pt range? I guess he can shoot 3pts but he's not even close to good at shooting 3pts. He's shot over 30% from 3pt range once in his career(2nd year). Overall he's not really helping out his team shooting 3s at that percentage.

This is the difference between Tyrus and Smith... Atlanta lives with the good and bad with Josh Smith and it seems to work out for them, Chicago on the other hand won't do that, you could switch these 2 players and we'd probably talk about how disappointing Josh Smith was.

 

[Shakes]

I don't know, you can point to Smith getting 5/58 but you could also say he's pretty much been overpaid because his flashy dunks make him a fan favourite and the team was scared into it after losing Childress to Europe.

Josh Smith also had to play a much bigger part in Atlanta's offense, not only taking more shots, but the assist difference is pretty huge between him and Tyrus too (3.4 to 1.3 in the seasons you list), showing the team just put the ball in his hands more often. I'm not sure Tyrus really can play a much bigger part of the offense, you ask him to do anything but dunk or take open jumpers and I think his efficiency will go down a lot.

I'm not saying Tyrus is an awful player, but I don't really see how at this point we can expect him to be much more than he already is on the offensive end. Most players have basically the game they're going to have by three years in the league. So it really becomes a problem of fit ... can we afford to start Tyrus next to Noah? I think most people have already decided no, hence the big push for Bosh/Amare.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Tyrus isn't really a bad player...he just doesn't know what he's doing sometimes. He's a really good shot blocker and could be a good rebounder if he would box out a bit more. His jumper from about 15 ft isn't that bad. I just think he spends too much time shooting jumpers and not enough time driving to the hoop for dunks. Let's face it, he's not Luol. He should stick to his strengths on offense (dunking) and shoot the midrange jumper as kind of a last resort. Playing time has also got to do with this because when a player doesn't get consistent minutes, it affects his confidence which is probably why he tries to do too much when he doesn't play consistently. Give him around 30ish minutes per game and he probably won't look too bad most nights.