Internet / Cable Providers Can't Charge You For Equipment

JimAKABlkhwks918

CCS Donator
Donator
Joined:
Oct 12, 2019
Posts:
11,355
Liked Posts:
5,741
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago White Sox
  1. Chicago Bulls
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Chicago Blackhawks
I've got AT&T, and their stupid Arris gateway...I've disabled the lousy WiFi that the Arris has built in and use a Netgear Nighthawk.

Do I still need the Arris as a modem? Or can I run the cat 6e right from the fiber optic converter outside to the Nighthawk?

@truthbedamned

 

truthbedamned

I don't have a party
Donator
Joined:
Aug 31, 2014
Posts:
16,751
Liked Posts:
9,805
Location:
Socialist Republic of California
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Cubs
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Chicago Blackhawks
I've got AT&T, and their stupid Arris gateway...I've disabled the lousy WiFi that the Arris has built in and use a Netgear Nighthawk.

Do I still need the Arris as a modem? Or can I run the cat 6e right from the fiber optic converter outside to the Nighthawk?

@truthbedamned

Unfortunately no. You still have to use the interface from AT&T as far as I know. I am assuming you are using your Nighthawk as an access point mode?
 
Last edited:

JimAKABlkhwks918

CCS Donator
Donator
Joined:
Oct 12, 2019
Posts:
11,355
Liked Posts:
5,741
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago White Sox
  1. Chicago Bulls
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Chicago Blackhawks
Unfortunately no. You still have to use the interface from AT&T as far as I know. I am assuming you are using your Nighthawk as an access point mode?
Yes, strictly as WAP....I left the gateway in line because I assumed it was still needed as a modem.
 

Ares

CCS Hall of Fame
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '19
Joined:
Aug 21, 2012
Posts:
42,336
Liked Posts:
35,061
Comcast allows you to use a modem or a modem/router combo that you purchase, so long as it is one from their approved list of compatible hardware.

They are cunty about it, but you can do it easily enough.

Does AT&T not allow this?
 

JimAKABlkhwks918

CCS Donator
Donator
Joined:
Oct 12, 2019
Posts:
11,355
Liked Posts:
5,741
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago White Sox
  1. Chicago Bulls
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Chicago Blackhawks
Comcast allows you to use a modem or a modem/router combo that you purchase, so long as it is one from their approved list of compatible hardware.

They are cunty about it, but you can do it easily enough.

Does AT&T not allow this?
Haven't looked into it, always thought you were stuck renting their garbage....this article has me investigating this week.
 

airtime143

This place is dead and buried.
CCS Hall of Fame '21
Joined:
Aug 21, 2012
Posts:
14,990
Liked Posts:
14,794
Comcast allows you to use a modem or a modem/router combo that you purchase, so long as it is one from their approved list of compatible hardware.

They are cunty about it, but you can do it easily enough.

Does AT&T not allow this?

As someone inside the industry, I can tell you that customer owned equip. Accounts for about 10% of the docsis devices and over 25% of equipment related service calls.
The poor dudes who roll on them always encounter the same spiel- "i paid x amount of dollars for this and it is top of the line!!! Best buy told me so!!"
Yet it turns out to be low grade dogs shit.

@JimAKABlkhwks918 , what is the greif?
Range? Speed?
 

Burque

Huevos Rancheros
Joined:
Mar 11, 2015
Posts:
16,032
Liked Posts:
9,511
I've got AT&T, and their stupid Arris gateway...I've disabled the lousy WiFi that the Arris has built in and use a Netgear Nighthawk.

Do I still need the Arris as a modem? Or can I run the cat 6e right from the fiber optic converter outside to the Nighthawk?

@truthbedamned

I do not know if it is different with ATT, but I know that with Xfinity (Comcast) that I purchased a net gear router and modem combo when I switched to cable and it has worked great and I don't have the rental fee.

It works for both my wired PC and the cellys wireless.
 

Ares

CCS Hall of Fame
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '19
Joined:
Aug 21, 2012
Posts:
42,336
Liked Posts:
35,061
As someone inside the industry, I can tell you that customer owned equip. Accounts for about 10% of the docsis devices and over 25% of equipment related service calls.
The poor dudes who roll on them always encounter the same spiel- "i paid x amount of dollars for this and it is top of the line!!! Best buy told me so!!"
Yet it turns out to be low grade dogs shit.

@JimAKABlkhwks918 , what is the greif?
Range? Speed?

I mean I looked at it like.

Spend 5$ a month for 4 years = 240$

Or spend 70$ one time on a modem, use my own router anyways.

Cheaper... no need to deal with the hassle of calling them to send a signal to force their modem/router into bridge mode.

No more hearing "We need to replace your Gateway.... the new one is faster"

Random aside.... @airtime143 I had a tech over to "install" my Gigspeed internet who kept asking me if my splitters were "compatible" with Comcast.

To be fair I had 2 of the ones that are supposed to help boost the signal, but he also asked me about a regular splitter I had.

My reply was "Well they must be... or your service wouldn't of been working the last 4 years, right?"

Are there really splitters you can buy that truly are not compatible with Comcast's signals?
 

JimAKABlkhwks918

CCS Donator
Donator
Joined:
Oct 12, 2019
Posts:
11,355
Liked Posts:
5,741
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago White Sox
  1. Chicago Bulls
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Chicago Blackhawks
As someone inside the industry, I can tell you that customer owned equip. Accounts for about 10% of the docsis devices and over 25% of equipment related service calls.
The poor dudes who roll on them always encounter the same spiel- "i paid x amount of dollars for this and it is top of the line!!! Best buy told me so!!"
Yet it turns out to be low grade dogs shit.

@JimAKABlkhwks918 , what is the greif?
Range? Speed?
The Arris Wi-Fi was awful, and needed to be reset often....the Nighthawk has 2.6 and 5G Wi-Fi, with way better range, and in the 3 months I've had it, it had not needed to be reset. Bonuses: nice app to manage devices, and speed tests at will. It also looks cool, so I have it on top of my Blu-ray player on a shelf next to the TV, so it is centrally located now.

My only thing is to see if I can drop any rental fee on the equipment...it may be ten bucks a month, but, as the meme reads, "I'm not ***, but 20 bucks is 20 bucks."
 

JimAKABlkhwks918

CCS Donator
Donator
Joined:
Oct 12, 2019
Posts:
11,355
Liked Posts:
5,741
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago White Sox
  1. Chicago Bulls
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Chicago Blackhawks
I mean I looked at it like.

Spend 5$ a month for 4 years = 240$

Or spend 70$ one time on a modem, use my own router anyways.

Cheaper... no need to deal with the hassle of calling them to send a signal to force their modem/router into bridge mode.

No more hearing "We need to replace your Gateway.... the new one is faster"

Random aside.... @airtime143 I had a tech over to "install" my Gigspeed internet who kept asking me if my splitters were "compatible" with Comcast.

To be fair I had 2 of the ones that are supposed to help boost the signal, but he also asked me about a regular splitter I had.

My reply was "Well they must be... or your service wouldn't of been working the last 4 years, right?"

Are there really splitters you can buy that truly are not compatible with Comcast's signals?
Yes, I had that issue.... there's some 2 way communication compatiblity issues relative to things like renting movies....I've cut the cord other than internet but I ran into this with stuff I bought to run coax around the house when I had Comcast.
 

airtime143

This place is dead and buried.
CCS Hall of Fame '21
Joined:
Aug 21, 2012
Posts:
14,990
Liked Posts:
14,794
I mean I looked at it like.

Spend 5$ a month for 4 years = 240$

Or spend 70$ one time on a modem, use my own router anyways.

Cheaper... no need to deal with the hassle of calling them to send a signal to force their modem/router into bridge mode.

No more hearing "We need to replace your Gateway.... the new one is faster"

Random aside.... @airtime143 I had a tech over to "install" my Gigspeed internet who kept asking me if my splitters were "compatible" with Comcast.

To be fair I had 2 of the ones that are supposed to help boost the signal, but he also asked me about a regular splitter I had.

My reply was "Well they must be... or your service wouldn't of been working the last 4 years, right?"

Are there really splitters you can buy that truly are not compatible with Comcast's signals?

Anymore? No.
But many houses still have the old school 55-450 mhz splitters.
All the targeted service carriers are above 450 and the return is sub-50.... thenold crap sometimes worked, bit attenuated the shit out of the signal resulting in a ton of errors which impacts speed.

As for the purchasing of devices- just buy better than you need at the time.
The compression changes non-stop and if your modem cannot take a firmware update you miss out.
The amplifiers are killers.
They will kill everything outside of their rated bandwidth.

additionally, most are uneeded. Too much signal is just as bad as too little, and every amp has a noise figure as well- it chips away at the modulation error ratio and once that drops it is unrecoverable. It is a degradation that is amplified right along with the signal.
low and clean is way better than high and dirty.
The big issue most recently was when we migrated to an OFDM carrier- a completely different multiplexing that sent speed through the roof but many cusyomer owned devices couldn't recognize and decipher a 150mHz wide "channel".. historically they are 6.
 
Last edited:

airtime143

This place is dead and buried.
CCS Hall of Fame '21
Joined:
Aug 21, 2012
Posts:
14,990
Liked Posts:
14,794
The Arris Wi-Fi was awful, and needed to be reset often....the Nighthawk has 2.6 and 5G Wi-Fi, with way better range, and in the 3 months I've had it, it had not needed to be reset. Bonuses: nice app to manage devices, and speed tests at will. It also looks cool, so I have it on top of my Blu-ray player on a shelf next to the TV, so it is centrally located now.

My only thing is to see if I can drop any rental fee on the equipment...it may be ten bucks a month, but, as the meme reads, "I'm not ***, but 20 bucks is 20 bucks."

If it needed to be reset there was something wrong with it.

I am not in the in house end of things, so I can't speak to their consumer devices, but arris is the king of scalable and segmentable fiber gear.
I jave spent the past 2 years putting arris in place of everything else that is out there.
They came out of nowhere and gobbled up Motorolas presence in the industry and ran with it.
I am playing around with a new line of remote cmts nodes they have dubbed r-phy that is going to save literal tens of millions an jump speeds to astronomic levels.

Tldr...your arris gateway is likely screwed up. Make em give you a new one.
 

Crystallas

Three if by air
Staff member
Donator
Joined:
Jun 25, 2010
Posts:
20,009
Liked Posts:
9,558
Location:
Next to the beef gristle mill
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Bulls
If you're going to buy your own modem, just be sure to avoid the shitty chipsets that span all brands. A mid-spec Docsis 3.1 is really the way to go now, don't bother with high end or Docsis 3.0 shit because the 4.0 spec is more than final, it's in production and being swung into the infrastructure slowly with consumer options available 2021 Q2-ish.

Also, DOCSIS 4.0 hardware is making its way to the commercial market *NOW* and some of the lower bin chipsets for next gen are being used in Docsis 3.1 *compatible* modems at a fraction of the cost but are having random drop/reboots, which is why they were B-Binned parts and bare some consumer risk as well, IIRC the 1150 netgear is one with mixed parts hit-or-miss and it's pricey. This is similar to when Draft-N WiFi spec was sold all over before the spec was completely certified. About 30% of those router chipsets wound up being fantastic for 10 years, but the rest had gremlins galore.

Oh, and never buy refurb/renewed* modems. They are likely locked to an account and your provider wont unlock them for you no matter how much you ***** and moan.
 

Urblock

CCS Donator
Donator
Joined:
Aug 21, 2012
Posts:
19,143
Liked Posts:
12,236
Going to need to read this thread again tomorrow.
 

airtime143

This place is dead and buried.
CCS Hall of Fame '21
Joined:
Aug 21, 2012
Posts:
14,990
Liked Posts:
14,794
If you're going to buy your own modem, just be sure to avoid the shitty chipsets that span all brands. A mid-spec Docsis 3.1 is really the way to go now, don't bother with high end or Docsis 3.0 shit because the 4.0 spec is more than final, it's in production and being swung into the infrastructure slowly with consumer options available 2021 Q2-ish.

Also, DOCSIS 4.0 hardware is making its way to the commercial market *NOW* and some of the lower bin chipsets for next gen are being used in Docsis 3.1 *compatible* modems at a fraction of the cost but are having random drop/reboots, which is why they were B-Binned parts and bare some consumer risk as well, IIRC the 1150 netgear is one with mixed parts hit-or-miss and it's pricey. This is similar to when Draft-N WiFi spec was sold all over before the spec was completely certified. About 30% of those router chipsets wound up being fantastic for 10 years, but the rest had gremlins galore.

Oh, and never buy refurb/renewed* modems. They are likely locked to an account and your provider wont unlock them for you no matter how much you ***** and moan.

Just because it is out there doesn't mean everyone is going to see a timely rollout of 4.0.

Smaller companies may have to wait a decade or more.
The duplex format requires a 100% active device swap out in the infrastructure.

That is why I had such wonderful things to say about Arris- they have been looking towards that for a few year- abandoning the mid split bandaid and looking at concurrent pathways.

You sound like you know your shit and keep up with the times.
You involved in network tech?
 

Crystallas

Three if by air
Staff member
Donator
Joined:
Jun 25, 2010
Posts:
20,009
Liked Posts:
9,558
Location:
Next to the beef gristle mill
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Bulls
Just because it is out there doesn't mean everyone is going to see a timely rollout of 4.0.

Smaller companies may have to wait a decade or more.
The duplex format requires a 100% active device swap out in the infrastructure.

That is why I had such wonderful things to say about Arris- they have been looking towards that for a few year- abandoning the mid split bandaid and looking at concurrent pathways.

You sound like you know your shit and keep up with the times.
You involved in network tech?

The way DOCSIS is specced allows for services and businesses to upgrade naturally. Doesn't matter if they roll out a full adoption or not, because everyone in between would use what is available to them. Also allows someone on a line that is physically limited to dwelling to be 50Mbit or so(for arguments sake) to upgrade their own hardware to support better performing components(wish I could just say speed, but there is more to it than that). So 50Mbit limit end to end, and user or supply-side upgrades modems, they will see some improvement because the network isn't just data speed, it's latency and compression, error correction, multiple connections through one line to keep constant streams going without interruption. And the ISP can do this on their natural upgrade paths, replacing the hardware within the same standard with better versions of it, and at some point, even carrier DOCSIS3.1 max certified hardware will see end-user performance improvements by using a 4.0 modem.
Similar to USB, how some devices don't need more than USB 1.1 power draws and packet depths and are still manufactured today despite (another 4.0) being on the cusp of USB 4.0 adoption. Aside from storage devices and a very select group of specific hardware, most things today still don't go beyond USB 2.0 spec. So it's going to be there just the same for DOCSIS, adoption as needed in places that need to offset network loads. Use a USB3.0 chipset, but a USB 3.1 device, there are still improvements. Bottlenecked and obviously not full capabilities, but better than the USB 3.0 certified counterpart (unless the part is built like shit to begin with, that's a constant regardless of all things).

The game isn't really changing until some form of JEDEC consortium occurs where enough influential manufacturers can agree to the true next gen memory(which affects everything). That is what *ALL* major tech standards are slowing on right now, because a few of new memory designs are a massive leap in performance over every manufactured standard we see today without requiring die shrinks to progress. ie: When DDR5 was delayed the first time, then scrapped(in all fairness, DDR5 isn't dead, it's just a name and spec, so the original draft is what was scrapped, not the name AFAIK), JEDEC committee members pushed the board to build a draft standard that will allow every corner of tech to take existing hardware specs, and get a massive boost in performance. So why would any network hardware standard get redeveloped and adopted with a minor upgrade, when refocusing for a few years will allow everyone on all layers to save trillions before committing to a full out standard. Not just $$ on constantly chasing their tails, but we're also talking about considerable drops in power consumption that go beyond anything manufactured today.

So yes, 10 years? It's a placeholder spec and standard. I think a lot of people hope JEDEC can simplify this complex path we're on, then start manufacturing those parts, shift hardware to that, and then adopt mainframe level upgrades that are more than what the start of spec promises for 2021.
For the consumer, it means that a lot of people who are just now getting upgraded speeds have a lot more homework thanks to the market being flooded with poor performing modems. Arris, Motorolla, Netgear, just brands really. They adopt and build boards on reference Intel, Broadcomm, Qualcomm, and so on create, then they customize the components. Arris has the least amount of bad modems on the market, I'll give you that. It's a safe brand, avoid the Puma6 models from everyone, and things are better.

I'm an electronics engineer, been working with a huge scope of specialty projects. In this day and age, networking is incorporated into everything. Plus, we talked before, I was a tech in the 90s for AT&T and Comcast pretty much fixing and migrating systems, one after another.
 

Burque

Huevos Rancheros
Joined:
Mar 11, 2015
Posts:
16,032
Liked Posts:
9,511
If you're going to buy your own modem, just be sure to avoid the shitty chipsets that span all brands. A mid-spec Docsis 3.1 is really the way to go now, don't bother with high end or Docsis 3.0 shit because the 4.0 spec is more than final, it's in production and being swung into the infrastructure slowly with consumer options available 2021 Q2-ish.

Also, DOCSIS 4.0 hardware is making its way to the commercial market *NOW* and some of the lower bin chipsets for next gen are being used in Docsis 3.1 *compatible* modems at a fraction of the cost but are having random drop/reboots, which is why they were B-Binned parts and bare some consumer risk as well, IIRC the 1150 netgear is one with mixed parts hit-or-miss and it's pricey. This is similar to when Draft-N WiFi spec was sold all over before the spec was completely certified. About 30% of those router chipsets wound up being fantastic for 10 years, but the rest had gremlins galore.

Oh, and never buy refurb/renewed* modems. They are likely locked to an account and your provider wont unlock them for you no matter how much you ***** and moan.

So if I have a Netgear docsis 3.0 that is probably three plus years old should I be looking to get rid of that for some reason?
 

Crystallas

Three if by air
Staff member
Donator
Joined:
Jun 25, 2010
Posts:
20,009
Liked Posts:
9,558
Location:
Next to the beef gristle mill
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Bulls
So are you saying that the standard one they rent to you won't be dog shit?

You can buy the same hardware they rent. But you're not always going to get the latest and greatest thing available. You might pay for Xfinity 300Mbps service, and get a device that is certified for 300Mbps, but that doesn't account for other factors that improve network experience. Where you can just as easily buy a 1Gbps modem, albeit service is capped, you'll save on rent and still see better overall performance. This is the dillema that most people work out that leads them to buying their own hardware. Rent and performance. Also, there are times they push out wifi modems, and if you live in an apartment complex, any Comcast customer can connect to your device, which can slow your service down and cause your equipment to draw more power, etc.

It's just smarter to buy your own *AND* do your homework first. Key thing being homework, because this is something you will use a lot, so it's in your interest to buy the best modem for your situation.
 

Crystallas

Three if by air
Staff member
Donator
Joined:
Jun 25, 2010
Posts:
20,009
Liked Posts:
9,558
Location:
Next to the beef gristle mill
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Bulls
So if I have a Netgear docsis 3.0 that is probably three plus years old should I be looking to get rid of that for some reason?

DOCSIS is a spec, so look at your modems certified caps first. Simple approach, if you are paying for 500Mbps service, but your modem is capped at something like 384Mbps, you're going to be limited. Still plenty fast, very usable.

The fact of the matter is, DOCSIS 4.0 brings very little to the table downstream. It's 80% an upstream improvement. DOCSIS 3.1 vs 3.0 isn't as significant. So if you find yourself streaming a lot, stuck doing a lot of xooming, that upstream is going to factor. Then you might do the math, see when your device pays itself off, and decide to upgrade at whatever point and time.
 

Burque

Huevos Rancheros
Joined:
Mar 11, 2015
Posts:
16,032
Liked Posts:
9,511
DOCSIS is a spec, so look at your modems certified caps first. Simple approach, if you are paying for 500Mbps service, but your modem is capped at something like 384Mbps, you're going to be limited. Still plenty fast, very usable.

The fact of the matter is, DOCSIS 4.0 brings very little to the table downstream. It's 80% an upstream improvement. DOCSIS 3.1 vs 3.0 isn't as significant. So if you find yourself streaming a lot, stuck doing a lot of xooming, that upstream is going to factor. Then you might do the math, see when your device pays itself off, and decide to upgrade at whatever point and time.


Well I am running 250 mbps down and I am getting mostly all of it according to various online speed tests.

My household doesn't seem to have any bottlenecks that I can find. If my wife is streaming something and playing on her phone full bore I am still able to do everything that I want without any lag so I am assuming that from functionality we are talking about people punching above my weight in bandwidth.

My biggest concern is actually ping over bandwidth.

I do not have trouble with that very often unless the vpn is acting funny. It does have a minor effect on base ping, but I seem to be able to game without too much trouble and if it is ever a problem I can always exclude the game from the vpn. I haven't had to do that as of yet, but there was a time when I would just turn it off while gaming and then back on when doing other things from the same machine.

In any case it sounds like what you are referring to is more corporate side than consumer side.


What are your thoughts on 5g, and companies like Verizon being able to put a device in your house that runs unlimited data at 5g for 40 a month with no wires. I have to admit that I am interested in cutting the cable cord as soon as possible and I have even spoken with my wife about the fact that we are going to have to start doing all her tv watching on demand. She seems down with that so long as she can still get the shows she wants to see. Do you think this will be a bad ping choice with good dl speeds or will it be good all around?
 

Top