Jerry Krause/Joe Wolf debate

[Kush77]

I decided to make a new thread instead of it getting lost in a longer one.

Here's a story about what happened on draft night 87. According to that Krause did want Wolf but was overruled by Reinsdorf.

Interesting stuff.

Krause: Success easy to stomach - Through thick and thin
Chicago Sun-Times - Thursday, May 30, 1991
Author: Lacy J. Banks
Bulls operations chief Jerry Krause says people tend to measure his weight by how well the team plays.

"When we're winning, people say I look trimmer," Krause said. "They say, `My, you're losing weight.' But when we start losing, suddenly I'm that fat guy again. My weight doesn't change, mind you. But people's concept of me change according to how the team is doing."

So, people are commending Krause these days for looking a lot slimmer and for smiling. But Krause, a Chicago native, a former Bradley student and a 24-year veteran NBA scout and administrator, has reason to smile. This is his year of vindication. This is the year when he has done what he promised to do for owner Jerry Reinsdorf six years ago. He has built a championship team. And as such, a great weight of criticism has been lifted.

Krause gambled on playing a pat hand and it turned out to be a winner. He did not need any other players for this team to become champion of the Eastern Conference.

It's possible the team could have been better with veteran shooting guard Walter Davis in reserve. It's also possible Krause spent time chasing Yugoslavian star Toni Kukoc at the expense of his current team.

But the team won a club-record 61 games, won the Central Division, finished atop the Eastern Conference, drew record standing-room crowds and now battles for the league championship. And it is the same team that

started the season.

"I said all along this team is capable of winning the championship," Krause said.

Krause was fired as chief scout of the Bulls in 1976, but returned as operations chief in 1985 two weeks after Reinsdorf bought the team. He was fortunate to inherit Michael Jordan for the centerpiece.

Some critics say Jordan is so good it would be impossible to build a bad team around him. Other critics argue Krause, the NBA's Executive of the Year in 1988, has made far more bad deals than good deals among his 33 trades. For one, Krause admits unloading Rod Higgins twice was a mistake.

One thing was sure when Krause arrived. Jordan had very little chance of winning any championship on that team, which included guards Ronnie Lester, Quintin Dailey, Wes Matthews and Ennis Whatley; forwards Orlando Woolridge, Steve Johnson, Sidney Green, Rod Higgins and Charles Jones; and centers Dave Corzine, Caldwell Jones and Jawann Oldham.

"I saw bad chemistry," Krause said. "I saw players who were all skilled athletes. They were good players who could not play good together. I didn't think there was any pride in the organization. There was no pride in the uniform. Plus, we were capped financially.

"We needed to do a complete about-face. We brought in a whole new staff and changed everything the way we did it."

Krause's most pleasing deals:

Signing assistant coach Tex Winter. Krause's comment: "Tex was the first person I hired. I consider him a basketball genius." Drafting 6-9 power forward Charles Oakley. Comment: "The Oakley deal helped us . . . because we needed somebody to rebound and help us establish a physical team."

Signing restricted free agent point guard John Paxson. Comment: "He has the shooting talent, the ball-handling skills and the ideal character to complement Michael."

Drafting Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant. Comment: "Signing Pippen and Grant ( 1987 ) gave me a lot of satisfaction. They have developed well. They are among the best at their positions."

The drafting of Grant almost didn't happen because Krause, at the last minute, wanted to draft Joe Wolf but was overruled by Jerry Reinsdorf, who sided with the coaches, team sources said. Trading Oakley for 7-1 center Bill Cartwright. Comment: "Bill gave us the low-post center . . . needed to win a championship."

"There's not a bad apple in the bunch," Krause said of his players. "And when you have good apples, you can make some pretty good apple pie."

 

[Shakes]

I find it amusing that people are happy JR over ruled his GM in the draft, when they complain about him getting involved in the contract negotiations. If you want a GM to be hands on or hands off, you have to take the good with the bad.

 

[Kush77]

Shakes wrote:

I find it amusing that people are happy JR over ruled his GM in the draft, when they complain about him getting involved in the contract negotiations. If you want a GM to be hands on or hands off, you have to take the good with the bad.

I guess the difference would be that JR overruled with prompting by the coaching staff.

Where his involvement in the contract negotiations, with a guy like D'Antoni, was probably unsolicited by Paxson.

But aren't you happy JR overruled in this case? I am. Good job JR. Or good job coaching staff for convincing JR to overrule his boy Jerry Krause.

 

[clonetrooper264]

I wish JR or the coaches or whoever would have intervened more often with Krause's tendencies to pick horrible big men...

 

[Shakes]

Kush77 wrote:

But aren't you happy JR overruled in this case?

Well yes, obviously Grant was the better player. I'm just saying that you can't cherry pick when JR gets involved.

 

[houheffna]

I too find it ironic...JR is accused of being too meddlesome. Yet, when he intervenes and its seen as a positive, its either overlooked or its dismissed as the obvious move to make. It seems if anything, JR meddling ways SAVED the dynasty more than he destroyed it...

But then again, his whole reputation goes down the toilet...because of Ben Gordon...

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

I too find it ironic...JR is accused of being too meddlesome. Yet, when he intervenes and its seen as a positive, its either overlooked or its dismissed as the obvious move to make. It seems if anything, JR meddling ways SAVED the dynasty more than he destroyed it...

But then again, his whole reputation goes down the toilet...because of Ben Gordon...

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

JR meddled in the Grant pick with the prompting of coaches. That's the difference that you and Shakes seem to be missing in the Grant situation.

 

[houheffna]

What difference does it make WHY he meddled? The owner of the team should only involve himself at the coach's behest? The owner should involve himself when he deems it necessary to do so. I don't know if Phil Jackson called JR and said, Krause is about to trade Pippen, could you intervene? I am also pretty sure JR didn't intervene when coaches wanted him to.

If the coaches decide when the owner should involve himself, the coaches are running the franchise, and that is not their jobs...

 

[Kush77]

But this is an apples and oranges argument.

The reason people have been mad at JR is because of a cheapness issue. The issue with Grant had nothing to do with money, so no one would be mad about that. Especially since it's the coaches that wanted Grant.

The point is who wanted Joe Wolf. right.

I didn't read all the new threads but I posted this because there was a debate as to who wanted Joe Wolf.

Wasn't Fred saying Krause and Hou saying Jordan? Correct me if I'm wrong?

I would have assumed Jordan because of his Carolina loyalty. But that wasn't the case.

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

What difference does it make WHY he meddled? The owner of the team should only involve himself at the coach's behest? The owner should involve himself when he deems it necessary to do so. I don't know if Phil Jackson called JR and said, Krause is about to trade Pippen, could you intervene? I am also pretty sure JR didn't intervene when coaches wanted him to.

If the coaches decide when the owner should involve himself, the coaches are running the franchise, and that is not their jobs...

Well from reading clip again it says JR sided with the coaches.

I said prompted. So I'm wrong.

Maybe JR actually did some scouting of Grant and decided he was better than Wolf? I don't know.

 

[houheffna]

Jordan wanting Joe Wolf has been out there for years, if that isn't the case, I stand corrected.

To me, its not worth researching just for the sake of being a contrarian to the article. If it is about finding out who wanted Wolf, that is one issue, if there are underlying implications being made with the article (Reinsdorf meddling, Krause's incompetence) that is another issue entirely.

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

Jordan wanting Joe Wolf has been out there for years, if that isn't the case, I stand corrected.

To me, its not worth researching just for the sake of being a contrarian to the article. If it is about finding out who wanted Wolf, that is one issue, if there are underlying implications being made with the article (Reinsdorf meddling, Krause's incompetence) that is another issue entirely.

Here's a fun game. What happens if the Bulls took Joe Wolf?

Does Oakley still get traded? We never have Cartwright. Do the Bulls in the title with Will Purdue in the middle?

Does Stacey King get more of a shot to be the starting PF or C. Do the Bulls even draft King in 89. Oh boy,

That's one move that could of changed a lot of stuff.

Or or or, does Joe Wolf become a start playing with Jordan? Hmmmmmm?

 

[Fred]

Great stuff Kush.

Reinsdorf would have never overruled Kruause if the stench of the Sellers pick wasn't still smoldering, when the entire coaching staff wanted Dawkins, and Krause insisted on Sellers. The coaching staff was right on Dawkins, and they were right on Grant.

"Krause also made some picks that didn't sit well with fans. In 1986, Krause planned on selecting a tall forward named Brad Sellers in the NBA Draft. Sellers, Krause reasoned, was too good a pick to pass up, as he handled the ball very well for a big man, and also had a solid outside jumper. Jordan, on the other hand, pushed management to take a two-way guard from Duke named Johnny Dawkins. It looked like Krause would take Dawkins even as late as the morning of the draft; the coaches and players had made it clear that they wanted him and not Sellers, and Krause didn't particularly have a problem with Dawkins' game. The Bulls' head coach at the time, Doug Collins, even told Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski the night before the draft that the team would pick Dawkins. However, Krause ignored everyone and picked Sellers anyway, and spent the summer trying to sell him to Jordan."
- wikipedia

But look how history has been rewritten. How many people on this board besides myself and Kush knew that Krause didn't want Grant, that it was a Collins pick?

 

[houheffna]

I knew Doug Collins wanted Grant years ago...Reinsdorf's involvement is what I didn't know about. Krause being GM, it didn't really matter who else liked the pick...the pick was made...just as Aldridge wasn't picked up because Skiles didn't like him...Paxson still gets the blame ultimately. But again...those are "sources" that speak of Reinsdorf's involvment. So it makes sense to take it for what its worth...

Krause was also voted top executive so he did something right...

 

[Kush77]

Thanks for the props Fred, but I didn't claim to know.

I never knew about the Collins thing until you brought it up a few months back.

Like I posted earlier, I would have assumed Jordan would have pushed for Joe Wolf considering he loves his Carolina guys.

But I guess Jordan really didn't have any say in this 87 draft at all. It seems like it was coaches, Krause and JR.

Would Jordan really feel, at that point (finishing his 3rd year in the NBA) that he could suggest draft picks?

 

[TheStig]

Where do you guys find these old articles? I can't even find something from a couple of years ago.

 

[Shakes]

Also didn't the quote in the other thread say that JR didn't demand Krause pick Grant, he just told him that everyone else wanted Grant?

If it went down like that, if Krause wanted Wolf but went with Grant because of the majority opinion, then isn't that a credit to him? That he listened to those around him and knew when to trust their judgement over his own.

As far as meddling goes, I'd rather have an owner meddle in the contract negotiations (since presumably as a businessman that would be his strong suit) rather than basketball operations. If JR put his foot down and said "we're picking Grant" then that worries me regardless of whether it was correct.

 

[Fred]

Shakes wrote:

If it went down like that, if Krause wanted Wolf but went with Grant because of the majority opinion, then isn't that a credit to him? That he listened to those around him and knew when to trust their judgement over his own.

Again,

In 1986, Krause planned on selecting a tall forward named Brad Sellers in the NBA Draft. Sellers, Krause reasoned, was too good a pick to pass up, as he handled the ball very well for a big man, and also had a solid outside jumper. Jordan, on the other hand, pushed management to take a two-way guard from Duke named Johnny Dawkins. It looked like Krause would take Dawkins even as late as the morning of the draft; the coaches and players had made it clear that they wanted him and not Sellers, and Krause didn't particularly have a problem with Dawkins' game. The Bulls' head coach at the time, Doug Collins, even told Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski the night before the draft that the team would pick Dawkins. However, Krause ignored everyone and picked Sellers anyway

Therefore, isn't it more likely that Reinsdorf said, in so many words, "Hey moron..you went against your whole coaching staff last year when you took the bust Sellers. Since the staff, especially Collins who I respect, is adamanatly against this pick, I'm going to side with them on this one."

 

[Fred]

TheStig wrote:

Where do you guys find these old articles? I can't even find something from a couple of years ago.

It's the magic of Kush. Thank God for his efforts.

 

[pinkizdead]

i'm pretty sure kush has a time machine. On a related note, here's a piece of advice kush, MIND THE FLUX CAPACITOR!