mlewinth
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Just a couple quotes from John Hollinger's article today on Insider.
Just a couple quotes from John Hollinger's article today on Insider.
TheStig
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I agree on the Kirk statements, a lot of us have said the same thing. But I think that is a really short sighted view of Joe Dumars moves. He is in year one of rebuilding. How long did it take us or any other team to rebuild. The guy clearly hasn't made all of his moves yet. So you gotta give him a pass for a couple of years.
Diddy1122
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TheStig wrote:
Dumars has ruined that team, it's that simple. And I applaud Hollinger for finally calling him on it. Make no mistake, Detroit will be bad for the next several seasons. They have no cap space, no PG, no depth other than an overload of SGs, will have no Center after next season with no money to pursue a decent big. Unless Joe can work some trade magic, the Pistons will not rise from the bottom of the Central. Dumars f'd up on a grand scale & it all started with firing Flip Saunders.
I give Dumars credit for building a team of tough, hard nosed, chip-on-their-shoulders players who played as a single unit & surprised the bickering, slumping Lakers in the Finals. But his last good player move was 6 seasons ago when he traded for Sheed. Other than that all he did was a little tweaking here & there. But blowing up a team that made 6 straight conference finals is utterly moronic. It's Krausean. There's no need to completely blow up a good team or to do it in the manner that he did.
Dumars has ruined that team, it's that simple. And I applaud Hollinger for finally calling him on it. Make no mistake, Detroit will be bad for the next several seasons. They have no cap space, no PG, no depth other than an overload of SGs, will have no Center after next season with no money to pursue a decent big. Unless Joe can work some trade magic, the Pistons will not rise from the bottom of the Central. Dumars f'd up on a grand scale & it all started with firing Flip Saunders.
I give Dumars credit for building a team of tough, hard nosed, chip-on-their-shoulders players who played as a single unit & surprised the bickering, slumping Lakers in the Finals. But his last good player move was 6 seasons ago when he traded for Sheed. Other than that all he did was a little tweaking here & there. But blowing up a team that made 6 straight conference finals is utterly moronic. It's Krausean. There's no need to completely blow up a good team or to do it in the manner that he did.
Diddy1122
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Oh & I just have to add him passing on Carmelo Anthony to take Darko. I mean I don't know anyone in the world at that time who would've made that move. It's beyond stupid. It reaches a level of stupidity not even Bush could reach. And people can argue they were a good team already, which is true, but wouldn't logic dictate that adding a superstar caliber player who just won a NCAA National Championship would only make your team even better? And if anyone says Melo wouldn't start because Prince was already there, you probably still need your food cut for you.
Shakes
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I think there was a need to blow it up, he just did it badly.
I partially agree on the Kirk thing, but he's intentionally making him out to be worse than he is. Hollinger is stepping into the realms of hyperbole when he calls 9 million a year "star money", and he knows the weaknesses of PER (ie that it under-rates low usage defensive players).
As far as what Hollinger wrote about Dumars, probably the only quibble I'd have is about Charlie V. 8/40 is a pretty fair price for him, and if he'd used the rest of his cap space on something other than paying nearly 12 million a year to a guy who plays the position of a guy he just extended for 11 million a year, maybe it'd be paying off. Basically I think it was a decent move sunk by his other stupid moves.
I partially agree on the Kirk thing, but he's intentionally making him out to be worse than he is. Hollinger is stepping into the realms of hyperbole when he calls 9 million a year "star money", and he knows the weaknesses of PER (ie that it under-rates low usage defensive players).
As far as what Hollinger wrote about Dumars, probably the only quibble I'd have is about Charlie V. 8/40 is a pretty fair price for him, and if he'd used the rest of his cap space on something other than paying nearly 12 million a year to a guy who plays the position of a guy he just extended for 11 million a year, maybe it'd be paying off. Basically I think it was a decent move sunk by his other stupid moves.
pinkizdead
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Re:John Hollinger - NBA's Most Overrated/Underrate
extending rip and tayshaun was unconscionable. he knew there was a lowering of the cap. their play was declining. With a market for expiring contracts, and an abundance of gaurd depth, they traded all the wrong players, and extended the wrong ones.
affallo is playing well in denver.
they got nothing for billups. basically they traded billups and sheed for gordon and charlie V. it appears they could have gotten more for billups. Austin daye hardly seems worth having. this was a weak draft, i mean thabeet went at the 2... has he even played significant minutes?
he seems on a path more simliliar to krause than paxson.
extending rip and tayshaun was unconscionable. he knew there was a lowering of the cap. their play was declining. With a market for expiring contracts, and an abundance of gaurd depth, they traded all the wrong players, and extended the wrong ones.
affallo is playing well in denver.
they got nothing for billups. basically they traded billups and sheed for gordon and charlie V. it appears they could have gotten more for billups. Austin daye hardly seems worth having. this was a weak draft, i mean thabeet went at the 2... has he even played significant minutes?
he seems on a path more simliliar to krause than paxson.
MikeMeraz
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mlewinth wrote:
Thanx for ruining our chances to trade Hinrich Hollinger!!!:angry:
Thanx for ruining our chances to trade Hinrich Hollinger!!!:angry:
houheffna
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I agree that Kirk is overpaid...and overrated because of it...I also agree that Dumars is a serious f--- up. No other way to look at it. Charlie V has been worth the money but he was not necessary. Dumars overpaid for a guy that was also on Hollinger's overrated list at one time, and they could still improve at that position, though they have 23mil per year invested in it! Stuckey is not good, Teyshaun looks old already, Maxiell has regressed...its obvious that Dumars has to draft and draft well in the future...which he doesn't have a track record of doing either.
TheStig
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Rome wasn't built in a day and you can't rebuild a franchise over an off season. Therefore, I don't see how you can expect them to rebuild overnight. I don't understand extending Rip personally but I am sure he is going somewhere with it and lets not act like he got a 5 yr extension. He got a 3 yr extension. Rip isn't trash either and has some value. Give the guy another year or two, how many years were we rebuilding. Who knows, maybe they strike it rich like we did this offseason and get wall and sign a guy like haywood. Suddenly, things don't look so bad. You never know and its just way to earlier to judge.
And Flip Saunders? Please, the guy is the most over hyped coach in the league. His teams have never overachieved and always crumble.
And Flip Saunders? Please, the guy is the most over hyped coach in the league. His teams have never overachieved and always crumble.
Kush77
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Re:John Hollinger - NBA's Most Overrated/Underrate
I typically defend Joe Dumars because I think he made some good moves.
The whole Chauncey Billups things kills me though. They weren't going ANYWHERE with Chauncey. So why was trading him a bad thing??? They lost with the great Chauncey Billups in the ECF for three straight years. I also believe Flip Saunders was the coach for all three of those years. So parting ways with Flip and Chauncey doesn't make me think he's an overrated GM.
I didn't understand why he extended Hamilton.
the biggest mistake that Dumars made imo was not sitting on the cap space until 2010. Why not? You could of had a lottery pick (which looks like they'll get anyway) and had a chance at the crop of FAs. I think it was worth it over signing Gordon and Villenueva. I can live with the Gordon signing but CV sucks and always has.
I typically defend Joe Dumars because I think he made some good moves.
The whole Chauncey Billups things kills me though. They weren't going ANYWHERE with Chauncey. So why was trading him a bad thing??? They lost with the great Chauncey Billups in the ECF for three straight years. I also believe Flip Saunders was the coach for all three of those years. So parting ways with Flip and Chauncey doesn't make me think he's an overrated GM.
I didn't understand why he extended Hamilton.
the biggest mistake that Dumars made imo was not sitting on the cap space until 2010. Why not? You could of had a lottery pick (which looks like they'll get anyway) and had a chance at the crop of FAs. I think it was worth it over signing Gordon and Villenueva. I can live with the Gordon signing but CV sucks and always has.
Diddy1122
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Re:John Hollinger - NBA's Most Overrated/Underrate
Kush77 wrote:
I wouldn't call anyone from that team great, that includes Billups. They were just a great collection of good, smart players who played hard & played together. Letting Flip & Chauncey go doesn't make Dumars an overrated GM. It's a combination of everything. I mean honestly other than getting Sheed & drafting Prince, the guy has done nothing in my eyes the last 5+ years to make him GM of the decade. He traded Billups to a good team for AI, the worst possible player for the system they were trying to run. He drafted Stuckey, who sucks as a PG yet they keep starting him there. He drafted Daye which was a total waste of a pick. And don't get me started on Darko. And to top it all off, he wasted all his money on a mediocre FA class & now they are capped out for the next 3 years. Dumars IS overrated. RC Buford is by far the best GM in the league & he barely gets any mention at all. I'd be surpised if more than 2% of basketball fans out there even knew who he is.
Kush77 wrote:
I wouldn't call anyone from that team great, that includes Billups. They were just a great collection of good, smart players who played hard & played together. Letting Flip & Chauncey go doesn't make Dumars an overrated GM. It's a combination of everything. I mean honestly other than getting Sheed & drafting Prince, the guy has done nothing in my eyes the last 5+ years to make him GM of the decade. He traded Billups to a good team for AI, the worst possible player for the system they were trying to run. He drafted Stuckey, who sucks as a PG yet they keep starting him there. He drafted Daye which was a total waste of a pick. And don't get me started on Darko. And to top it all off, he wasted all his money on a mediocre FA class & now they are capped out for the next 3 years. Dumars IS overrated. RC Buford is by far the best GM in the league & he barely gets any mention at all. I'd be surpised if more than 2% of basketball fans out there even knew who he is.
houheffna
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You can't rebuild over an offseason, but you can mess a franchise up over an offseason and Dumars went a long way to doing that if he doesn't draft well. We will see who takes Hamilton, in the meantime, Dumars bid against himself and overpaid for a guard who cant start over an old Hamilton and splits playing time with Will Bynum off the bench and then they got Terry Mills 2k...for what? They essentially traded Billups for Gordon....horrible decision. If this is a sign of things to come...you can hang it up...
Kush77
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Re:John Hollinger - NBA's Most Overrated/Underrate
houheffna wrote:
gordon could start over Hamilton, but they choose to start Hamilton. Gordon is clearly having a down year because of injuries.
But I agree that Dumars didn't spend the money well. Adding Gordon and CV wasn't going to make them any better off in the East. It was spending money just for the sake of spending money.
houheffna wrote:
gordon could start over Hamilton, but they choose to start Hamilton. Gordon is clearly having a down year because of injuries.
But I agree that Dumars didn't spend the money well. Adding Gordon and CV wasn't going to make them any better off in the East. It was spending money just for the sake of spending money.
Kush77
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Re:John Hollinger - NBA's Most Overrated/Underrate
Diddy1122 wrote:
He did draft Stuckey, that was a good value pick at 15 even if you're not crazy about him as a player. Stuckey can score, probably should be a 2 guard.
He did make a bold move replacing Rick Carlisle with Larry Brown. It takes some balls to fire a coach that had back-to-back 50-win seasons. If Larry Brown failed Dumars would have got ripped apart by fans and media. But Brown helped them win a title and get to another Finals.
And if we are looking at the entire decade he did get Billups and Ben Wallace. Let Wallace go at the right time. Traded Jerry Stackhouse after the two best years of his career for Rip Hamilton.
Overall Dumars has been good. But that Darko pick killed what could have been a Detroit dynasty.
Diddy1122 wrote:
He did draft Stuckey, that was a good value pick at 15 even if you're not crazy about him as a player. Stuckey can score, probably should be a 2 guard.
He did make a bold move replacing Rick Carlisle with Larry Brown. It takes some balls to fire a coach that had back-to-back 50-win seasons. If Larry Brown failed Dumars would have got ripped apart by fans and media. But Brown helped them win a title and get to another Finals.
And if we are looking at the entire decade he did get Billups and Ben Wallace. Let Wallace go at the right time. Traded Jerry Stackhouse after the two best years of his career for Rip Hamilton.
Overall Dumars has been good. But that Darko pick killed what could have been a Detroit dynasty.
Diddy1122
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Re:John Hollinger - NBA's Most Overrated/Underrate
I'm not arguing the first half of the decade. He did an amazing job then. But the past 3 seasons after were mediocre & the past 2 seasons downright awful.
If you are looking at an entire decade you need to take all seasons into account. And if you do that logic points to RC Buford. Small market team, best record of any sports team other than Yankees over the past 10 years, 2 championships, Ginobli in the 2nd round, Parker in the late 1st round, Oberto in the 2nd round, managed to keep the greatest PF in the game in town for his entire career, & has kept flexibility under the salary cap every season. I just cannot understand how anyone in their right mind would think Dumars is better.
I'm not arguing the first half of the decade. He did an amazing job then. But the past 3 seasons after were mediocre & the past 2 seasons downright awful.
If you are looking at an entire decade you need to take all seasons into account. And if you do that logic points to RC Buford. Small market team, best record of any sports team other than Yankees over the past 10 years, 2 championships, Ginobli in the 2nd round, Parker in the late 1st round, Oberto in the 2nd round, managed to keep the greatest PF in the game in town for his entire career, & has kept flexibility under the salary cap every season. I just cannot understand how anyone in their right mind would think Dumars is better.
Kush77
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Re:John Hollinger - NBA's Most Overrated/Underrate
Diddy1122 wrote:
Should the GM of the decade be Mitch Kupchak? Drafted Bynum, traded for Gasol, brought back Phil Jackson. Rebuilt the Lakers around Kobe? Just throwing that out there.
Diddy1122 wrote:
Should the GM of the decade be Mitch Kupchak? Drafted Bynum, traded for Gasol, brought back Phil Jackson. Rebuilt the Lakers around Kobe? Just throwing that out there.
TheStig
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houheffna wrote:
Fortunately, trades (both Wallaces and Rip), MLE signings (billups) and not so hot draft picks (okur, prince). I don't know if he is a genius or a Special person for his moves but its too early to tell. Historically, he has done the most of the least. So we shall see but I would be surprised if he doesn't at least build a solid playoff team. But give it a couple of years to unfold.
Fortunately, trades (both Wallaces and Rip), MLE signings (billups) and not so hot draft picks (okur, prince). I don't know if he is a genius or a Special person for his moves but its too early to tell. Historically, he has done the most of the least. So we shall see but I would be surprised if he doesn't at least build a solid playoff team. But give it a couple of years to unfold.
Diddy1122
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Re:John Hollinger - NBA's Most Overrated/Underrate
Kush77 wrote:
I would say no. I mean just look at San Antonio. They have the Alamo & the Spurs, that's it. It's not like they have an owner who's just going to throw money around the way that Buss & Dolan do. Buford built that team around Duncan with excellent scouting, drafting, FA signings, all the while staying right at the LT threshold. And in San Antonio of all places!
Kush77 wrote:
I would say no. I mean just look at San Antonio. They have the Alamo & the Spurs, that's it. It's not like they have an owner who's just going to throw money around the way that Buss & Dolan do. Buford built that team around Duncan with excellent scouting, drafting, FA signings, all the while staying right at the LT threshold. And in San Antonio of all places!
TheStig
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Re:John Hollinger - NBA's Most Overrated/Underrate
Diddy1122 wrote:
I gotta agree, Buford gets it. He has absolutly the best scouting in the league with guys like Ginobli, Parker, Blair, Scola, Hill and Barbosa. Thats not including pick ups like Jackson or Brown. They have done so much with so little outside of TD. They just for the first time spent the LT. Its an incredible run.
The lakers have just had so much more to work with. Kobe and Shaq only wanted to go to LA, bynum was a lotto pick and they just have so much more money and assets to spend. They also haven't had an impressive drafts outside of Kobe and Bynum.
Diddy1122 wrote:
I gotta agree, Buford gets it. He has absolutly the best scouting in the league with guys like Ginobli, Parker, Blair, Scola, Hill and Barbosa. Thats not including pick ups like Jackson or Brown. They have done so much with so little outside of TD. They just for the first time spent the LT. Its an incredible run.
The lakers have just had so much more to work with. Kobe and Shaq only wanted to go to LA, bynum was a lotto pick and they just have so much more money and assets to spend. They also haven't had an impressive drafts outside of Kobe and Bynum.
Kush77
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Re:John Hollinger - NBA's Most Overrated/Underrate
Diddy1122 wrote:
You're really looking at it from a small market standpoint and I would buy that if this was MLB. They sellout in S.A. and would still make money if they had to go over the LT. I'm sure they would if they had to but they lucked out with good value contracts in Manu and Parker.
For example, If Duncan was a FA after the 2005 season and giving him a max would send them over the tax, they of course would sign him. the same with Parker. Staying at the LT is nice for the owners but I don't think the Spurs have been in any kind of financial dire straits during this decade where staying under the LT would get you extra credit.
Diddy1122 wrote:
You're really looking at it from a small market standpoint and I would buy that if this was MLB. They sellout in S.A. and would still make money if they had to go over the LT. I'm sure they would if they had to but they lucked out with good value contracts in Manu and Parker.
For example, If Duncan was a FA after the 2005 season and giving him a max would send them over the tax, they of course would sign him. the same with Parker. Staying at the LT is nice for the owners but I don't think the Spurs have been in any kind of financial dire straits during this decade where staying under the LT would get you extra credit.
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