Look at the Rockets....Look at the Bulls

[Fred]

This is an amazing tidbit from Mike McGraw (btw, Bulls are currently 18-21, Rockets 23-18). BTW, I think they've had a few more important injuries:

Saturday at Houston: Here's a rundown of the Rockets' top seven scorers: Aaron Brooks, 26th draft pick; Carl Landry, 31st pick; Trevor Ariza, 43rd pick; Luis Scola, 56th pick; Kyle Lowry, 24th pick; Shane Battier, 6th pick; and Chase Budinger, 44th pick. Kind of makes you wonder why the Bulls didn't do more with 12 top-nine draft choices between 1999-2008.

http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=351683&src=150

 

[houheffna]

I understand what you are saying and I am very much upset about the ineffectiveness of the drafting that was done and passing up on good, very good and even franchise players over the last few years...that said, most of those players were acquired through trades and free agency weren't they?

 

[BostonSteve]

You are forgetting that the Rockets don't have any top draft picks playing for them. When they have TMac and Yao, then those numbers change. But when your entire team consists of low draft picks, then your team leaders will all be low draft picks.

Put a bunch of mediocre players on one team, and the best players on the team are still mediocre players.

I'll agree that trading LaMarcus for Tyrus was a bad idea, but other than that, players like Joakim Noah, Ben Gordon, Luol Deng and Kirk Hinrich were all good picks. They are all good players. The problem wasn't with the draft choices, but the contract choices.

Also, just because one team passes up on a good player, it doesn't mean that the team screwed up if a bunch of other teams also passed up on that player. You don't always know who will become a star, and sometimes the team that winds up with him is just lucky.

 

[cool007]

You know a lot of it is bad luck as well. When the draft was loaded up top (LeBron/Wade/Bosh draft), we got 7th pick in that draft - very unfortunate.

Then the draft in 2006 when we swapped picks for our 2nd overall pick, they changed the rule to not have players be drafted out of high school, if they hadn't changed it, we would have drafted Oden/Durant - another UNFORTUNATE thing.

I think had we had opportunity at any of those player, we would have been pretty darn good by now.

Atleast something worked finally and we got Derrick Rose but now we have many holes to fill (we just had 1 big hole last year - big man) but now we have to fill good 3pt shooters role AS WELL AS talented big man that can score role.

if we don't either trade for those players or bring in this coming summer, look for us to be in the bottom of the playoff seeding for years to come.

 

[houheffna]

3pt shooters grow on trees man...its the low post threat we miss. You got good three point shooting going on right now...Salmons and Hinrich are both shooting over 37% I believe and are shooting better from range than the guy Salmons replaced...so I believe having a low post threat will fix a lot of their problems. They have had the same problem for 6 or 7 years now. Nobody commands a double team. That is sad that of all of those high draft picks, none of them commanded a double in a half court set. That impeded their success quite a bit.

Houston has an abundance of long range shooters and they have post up threats in Landry and Scola. A better put together team all around...

 

[Shakes]

Full respect to the rockets for how well they're coping without Yao and McGrady. But Fred, lets not overhype them as a franchise.

Since the Rockets and Bulls picked 1 and 2, both teams only have one second round appearance to show for it. The Rockets have made the playoffs one additional time, but in fairness their draft pick has made 5 all-NBA teams, ours was last seen on a motor cycle being a bloody idiot.

Basically given the huge advantage the rockets had in getting Ming over Williams, I'd say they've vastly underperformed relative to the Bulls.

 

[Fred]

Shakes wrote:

Full respect to the rockets for how well they're coping without Yao and McGrady. But Fred, lets not overhype them as a franchise.

Since the Rockets and Bulls picked 1 and 2, both teams only have one second round appearance to show for it. The Rockets have made the playoffs one additional time, but in fairness their draft pick has made 5 all-NBA teams, ours was last seen on a motor cycle being a bloody idiot.

Basically given the huge advantage the rockets had in getting Ming over Williams, I'd say they've vastly underperformed relative to the Bulls.

Of course, the Rockets have played in the superior conference for all of this time. They're playing in a FAR superior conference this year. In the past 10 years, they've had to play the Spurs and Lakers many more times than we have. What's been the toughest team we've dealt with over the past 10 years? Detroit? Hardly in the same class as the Spurs or Lakers.

 

[Fred]

houheffna wrote:

3pt shooters grow on trees man...its the low post threat we miss. You got good three point shooting going on right now...Salmons and Hinrich are both shooting over 37% I believe and are shooting better from range than the guy Salmons replaced...so I believe having a low post threat will fix a lot of their problems. They have had the same problem for 6 or 7 years now. Nobody commands a double team. That is sad that of all of those high draft picks, none of them commanded a double in a half court set. That impeded their success quite a bit.

Houston has an abundance of long range shooters and they have post up threats in Landry and Scola. A better put together team all around...

I don't think 3-point shooters grow on trees. The best team in the league right now at shooting the 3 is Cleveland. They are hitting it 40.9%. The worst team is New Jersey, at 28%. Last year, the spread was 40% from the best (Boston) to 32% worst.

The Bulls clearly did not get enough good 3-point shooting early this season to help Rose Thus, you read Rose quotes like "There's no room to drive" after the loss at Toronto. Salmons has been especially hot from 3-point line since his demotion, shooting it at almost 50% for an 8-game period. But the threat from Hinrich/Salmons/Deng isn't consistent enough for us to win 41 games, let alone a playoff game.

I guess it all comes down to this. I've heard a lot of nonsense that this team has been hurt by injuries. Hinrich has missed a total of 7 out of 39 games. Tyrus missed 23 out of 39. Every other Bull of note has played in all 39 games. The fact is, we've been remarkably HEALTHY when compared to the league. Let's take a look at last year's team, which won 41 games.

Hinrich missed 31 games due to injury.
Deng missed 33 games due to injury, and all 7 playoff games.
Drew Gooden missed 25 out of a potential 55 while he was on the Bulls.
Salmons only played in 26 games. He "missed" 56.
Miller played in 27 games. He "missed" 55.

Yet we won 41 games, and 3 playoff games. We won't win 41 this year, despite:

1. the vast improvement of Noah
2. the addition of Taj Gibson
3. a healthy Luol Deng

We won't win 41 because we lost one shooter. We need to bring in a shooter next year, even if we somehow get Bosh or Wade.

 

[houheffna]

You won't need 41 wins to go to the playoffs, play sorry basketball and get bounced out like you did last year...if playoffs are what you are worried about.

The Bulls went on a nice run but they were not a nice team last year...they went to the playoffs and played sucky basketball and so did the Celtics, who were clearly a better team. While I wanted the Bulls to win, them losing showed me that even with that "one shooter" they were no where close to a title. They can find another guy to hit open shots...that is what is needed. A player who when open can hit a shot from long range.

Those grow on trees....Krause had one in his backyard...

While I am not a big fan of the coach...injuries DO matter when you start out the year with a rookie who can't play, your best player is still recovering, then you lose your guard for a while and you lose one of your best frontcourt players. Gray, Pargo and even Miller have not shown that they deserve much playing time this season, they have a 40 year old who reminds me to get a membership at bally's whenever he takes of his warmups and steps on the court...injuries are a factor. This team has started the season with a 8 man rotation...injuries matter quite a bit.

What they need is a post player...I cannot bring myself to lament about one shooter when that one shooter got us nowhere in particular. We were not contenders and not a championship team. Why? No post game.....I am sorry but when the most dominant post threats we have had post Elton Brand are Othella Harrington and Michael Sweetney...some dude chucking up shots is the last thing on my mind.

 

[clonetrooper264]

I agree with Hou that the low post player is the most immediate need, but a really good 3 pt shooter is still good to have. BG was an elite 3 pt shooter while he was here and he would be a good player to have on any team. If you're looking for just pure 3 pt shooting, go grab Kyle Korver or Jason Kapono from their respective teams. The difference between those guys and BG is that BG is not just a 3 pt shooter, he's a scorer. He can score in a variety of ways whereas Korver and Kapono can only shoot 3's. This is why BG was a #3 pick while those guys were late first rounders. This is also why BG is paid more and has far better numbers...except for this injury plagued year (but even then he's still scoring more points than those guys ever did).

 

[RC_Skinny22]

Wow during the Clippers game the tv announcers listed the Bulls high draft picks. I can´t believe the Bulls had so many in that time. I mean you probably all know that but for me it´s the first time I really realized that. It´s just WOW!

Here it is:

2008: 1st pick (Derrick Rose)
2007: 9th pick (Joakim Noah)
2006: 2nd pick (Lamarcus Aldridge traded for Tyrus Thomas)
2004: 3rd pick (Ben Gordon) and 7th pick (Luol Deng)
2003: 7th pick (Kirk Hinrich)
2002: 2nd pick (Jay Williams)
2001: 2nd pick (Tyson Chandler) and 4th pick (Eddy Curry)
2000: 4th pick (Marcus Fizer) and 7th pick (Chris Mihm traded for Jamal Crawford)
1999: 1st pick (Elton Brand)

 

[houheffna]

Well, we have a scorer in the backcourt...no problem there...damn near an allstar...so who is gone is gone didn't win s--- with them anyway. Getting someone in the frontcourt is of the utmost importance. Korver and Kapono were brought up. Those guys would serve the purpose, though with Rose, I would rather have a Bruce Bowen type if he is limited offensively, but a shooter will be easy to get...

 

[jsain360]

Fred wrote:

houheffna wrote:

3pt shooters grow on trees man...its the low post threat we miss. You got good three point shooting going on right now...Salmons and Hinrich are both shooting over 37% I believe and are shooting better from range than the guy Salmons replaced...so I believe having a low post threat will fix a lot of their problems. They have had the same problem for 6 or 7 years now. Nobody commands a double team. That is sad that of all of those high draft picks, none of them commanded a double in a half court set. That impeded their success quite a bit.

Houston has an abundance of long range shooters and they have post up threats in Landry and Scola. A better put together team all around...

I don't think 3-point shooters grow on trees. The best team in the league right now at shooting the 3 is Cleveland. They are hitting it 40.9%. The worst team is New Jersey, at 28%. Last year, the spread was 40% from the best (Boston) to 32% worst.

The Bulls clearly did not get enough good 3-point shooting early this season to help Rose Thus, you read Rose quotes like "There's no room to drive" after the loss at Toronto. Salmons has been especially hot from 3-point line since his demotion, shooting it at almost 50% for an 8-game period. But the threat from Hinrich/Salmons/Deng isn't consistent enough for us to win 41 games, let alone a playoff game.

I guess it all comes down to this. I've heard a lot of nonsense that this team has been hurt by injuries. Hinrich has missed a total of 7 out of 39 games. Tyrus missed 23 out of 39. Every other Bull of note has played in all 39 games. The fact is, we've been remarkably HEALTHY when compared to the league. Let's take a look at last year's team, which won 41 games.

Hinrich missed 31 games due to injury.
Deng missed 33 games due to injury, and all 7 playoff games.
Drew Gooden missed 25 out of a potential 55 while he was on the Bulls.
Salmons only played in 26 games. He "missed" 56.
Miller played in 27 games. He "missed" 55.

Yet we won 41 games, and 3 playoff games. We won't win 41 this year, despite:

1. the vast improvement of Noah
2. the addition of Taj Gibson
3. a healthy Luol Deng

We won't win 41 because we lost one shooter. We need to bring in a shooter next year, even if we somehow get Bosh or Wade.

Its much easier to find a 3pt threat

 

[Fred]

houheffna wrote:

so who is gone is gone didn't win s--- with them anyway.

I've heard this point made in a ton of places over the past year, but I sure as hell don't agree with it. Couldn't Minnesota fans say the same thing about Kevin Garnett? They didn't win s--- with him. They haven't won s--- with Al Jefferson. Is he worthless? Should the Timberwolves let him walk for nothing? Why should we try and sign Joe Johnson? What has he won with Atlanta? He's won s----. I've never argued that we've had a Batman here in the past 6 years. But we had a Robin, and you don't let Robin walk for nothing but cap space.

I keep getting drawn back into this argument, but this organization should be HAMMERED by the decision to pull a 9 million per year contract off the table in October of 2008. But Reinsdorf has obviously won the PR battle. You don't put yourself into a situation to let a Top 20 scorer walk away for cap space.

 

[jsain360]

Fred wrote:

houheffna wrote:

so who is gone is gone didn't win s--- with them anyway.

I've heard this point made in a ton of places over the past year, but I sure as hell don't agree with it. Couldn't Minnesota fans say the same thing about Kevin Garnett? They didn't win s--- with him. They haven't won s--- with Al Jefferson. Is he worthless? Should the Timberwolves let him walk for nothing? Why should we try and sign Joe Johnson? What has he won with Atlanta? He's won s----. I've never argued that we've had a Batman here in the past 6 years. But we had a Robin, and you don't let Robin walk for nothing but cap space.

I keep getting drawn back into this argument, but this organization should be HAMMERED by the decision to pull a 9 million per year contract off the table in October of 2008. But Reinsdorf has obviously won the PR battle. You don't put yourself into a situation to let a Top 20 scorer walk away for cap space.

Its more like Albert or Commisioner Gordon, I could go along w/ Robin, he is one of the most useless super heroes ever

 

[TheStig]

Bullseye wrote:

Wow during the Clippers game the tv announcers listed the Bulls high draft picks. I can´t believe the Bulls had so many in that time. I mean you probably all know that but for me it´s the first time I really realized that. It´s just WOW!

Here it is:

2008: 1st pick (Derrick Rose)
2007: 9th pick (Joakim Noah)
2006: 2nd pick (Lamarcus Aldridge traded for Tyrus Thomas)
2004: 3rd pick (Ben Gordon) and 7th pick (Luol Deng)
2003: 7th pick (Kirk Hinrich)
2002: 2nd pick (Jay Williams)
2001: 2nd pick (Tyson Chandler) and 4th pick (Eddy Curry)
2000: 4th pick (Marcus Fizer) and 7th pick (Chris Mihm traded for Jamal Crawford)
1999: 1st pick (Elton Brand)

Its amazing to see so many squandered picks. Its just sickening what this organization has done. 2 allstar appearences for the whole group and they weren't even as a bull.

 

[TheStig]

I'd also like to add that Rick Adelman is one of the best coaches in the league. He is a true offensive genius and can get his teams to overachieve. That is a huge difference too, he is one of the five coaches who actually makes his teams better than the sum of their parts.