More Compelling Evidence in the MJ vs. Kobe Lunacy

[Frank Breakfast Styleham]

Good to Great Players Michael Jordan Had as Teammates:
1. Scottie Pippen (Hall of Famer, Dream Teamer, Top 50)
2. Dennis Rodman (One of the greatest rebounders and lock-down defenders to ever live)
3. Horace Grant (Double Double Averages)

Good to Great Players Kobe Bryant Has Had as Teammates
1. Shaquille O'Neal (In the prime of his career, All-Star starting center, THE premier center at the time).
2. Dwight Howard (Arguably THE premier center in the NBA, All-Star starting center, if he recovers from surgery very easily in his prime)
3. Glen Rice (One of the greatest shooters to ever live)
4. Karl Malone (The best power forward to ever live second only to Tim Duncan who many consider a center)
5. Pau Gasol (One of the best forwards in the game, double double season averages)
6. Gary Payton (One of the greatest point guards to ever play)
7. Steve Nash (One of the greatest point guards to ever play)
8. Lamar Odom (Double Double season Averages, Voted Best 6th man in the NBA just a couple years ago)
9. Ron Artest (One of the top defensive players in the sport)
10. Antawn Jamison (20k Scorer)

Top 5 Centers Michael Jordan had as Teammates
1. Dave Corzine
2. Bill Cartwright
3. Luc Longley
4. Bill Wennington
5. Will Perdue/Granville Waiters


Top 5 Centers Kobe Bryant has had as teammates
1. Shaquille O'Neal (Prime, MVP, All-Star starter)
2. Andrew Bynum (Double Double machine)
3. Dwight Howard (Prime, All-Star starter)
4. Elden Campbell (Decent center)
5. Pau Gasol (Forward/Center, All-Star)

...What do you do with this information?

 

[Frank Breakfast Styleham]

And yet even with all that help Kobe has lost multiple Finals and has gotten blown out of a Finals elimination game while the other guy, with overwhelmingly less help is 6-0 and carried every single one of those teams as the Alpha Dog (where the only Finals' Kobe ever lost was when HE was the alpha dog and won 3 when someone else was the Alpha Dog and only has 2 of his own).

How can anyone say Kobe is equal or superior to Jordan?

Just doesn't make sense.

 

[Frank Breakfast Styleham]

Ignore it?

Those who say Kobe is equal or better than Jordan do just that and it makes no sense.

"Here are the facts but facts schmacts, I know what I see."

Alright...but...lol

 

[Frank Breakfast Styleham]

And that's not even counting the fact Kobe also played with Nick Van Exel and Eddie Jones - those guys aren't going to the Hall of Fame but those were All-Stars, in Jones' case MULTIPLE All-Stars AND All-NBA honors!

Has ANYONE in the history of the NBA had as much help as Kobe?

Has ANYONE played with more first ballot Hall of Famers and All-Stars?

I defy this forum to name one player who has had more than 10 All-Stars as teammates.

I'm going all in with Kobe Bean Bryant.

 

[Frank Breakfast Styleham]

Dwight Howard isn't the premier center? Steve Nash and Gary Payton aren't among the greatest guards to ever play? Glen Rice wasn't a great shooter? Karl Malone wasn't the 2nd greatest forward to ever play?

 

[Frank Breakfast Styleham]

I mean, I know GP and Nash weren't as good as Rory Sparrow, I would never dare blaspheme Sparrow! My apologies good sir.

 

[FirstTimer]

Those who say Kobe is equal or better than Jordan do just thatl

Who the hell cares?

 

[Happy Human 1001]

Good to Great Players Michael Jordan Had as Teammates:
1. Scottie Pippen (Hall of Famer, Dream Teamer, Top 50)
2. Dennis Rodman (One of the greatest rebounders and lock-down defenders to ever live)
3. Horace Grant (Double Double Averages)

no one ever shows Ron Harper any love

 

[clonetrooper264]

Frankie Breakfast Sandwich lives on...

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

wait, there's compelling evidence that mj is better than kobe?

do tell.......

 

[X]

Bolded for terribleness.

Thank you. I scrolled down to do exactly what you did, to the same names...but you beat me to it. So you get a thanks...and a happy dance :crazydance:

 

[Frank Breakfast Styleham]

(Stammering) I mean, 6-0 in the Finals with overwhelmingly less help ain't a bad place to start, no?

Never somebody's Robin? Always Batman? ALWAYS victorious in the Finals? Never getting beaten by 40 points in a FINALS ELIMINATION GAME? Never having the luxury of having the best center on earth as soon as he got into the league but having guys like Jawann Oldham and Granville Waiters when Kobe had Shaq and not to mention has a notorious controversy in one of those championship seasons (Game 6, Kings Lakers - Lakers getting 22 gift calls and STILL only winning by a few points...the Kings win that series it was over)?

Every single stat trumping Kobe in every category but games played after the same number of seasons played?

I found the following very interesting from that season after Kobe played his 15th.

Do with this what you wish:

This is Kobe's 15th season.

Michael Jordan played in 15 different NBA seasons, the same amount as Kobe has so far in his career.

Kobe has already played in more games than Jordan (1097-1072) and counting.

Here's what the cold hard objective facts tell us (and keep in mind, this is even counting those 2 years when Jordan only played 17 games due to an injury and only 18 for his first comeback).

Games Played
Jordan: 1072
Kobe: 1097
Advantage: Kobe Bryant

In 15 seasons (so far)...

POINTS
Jordan: 32,292
Kobe: 27,705
Advantage Jordan (4587 more points)

ASSISTS
Jordan: 5633
Kobe: 5129
Advantage Jordan (504 more assists)

REBOUNDS
Jordan: 6672
Kobe: 5803
Advantage Jordan (869 more rebounds)

BLOCKS
Jordan: 893
Kobe: 574
Advantage Jordan (319 more blocks)

STEALS
Jordan: 2514
Kobe: 1645
Advantage Jordan (869 more steals)

MVP Awards
Jordan: 5
Kobe: 1
Advantage Jordan (4, count em 4 more)

Playoff Averages

Games Played
Jordan: 179
Kobe: 198
Advantage Kobe Bryant

Points
Jordan: 33.4 PPG
Kobe: 25.5 PPG
Advantage Jordan

Rebounds
Jordan: 6.4 RPG
Kobe: 5.2 RPG
Advantage Jordan

Assists
Jordan: 5.7 APG
Kobe: 4.8 APG
Advantage Jordan

Steals
Jordan: 2.1 SPG
Kobe: 1.4 SPG
Advantage Jordan

Finals record as the main scoring option on team
Jordan: 6-0
Kobe: 2-2
Advantage: Jordan (4 more titles as a main man of team, never lost like Kobe has twice)

Shooting Percentage
Jordan: 50%
Kobe: 45%
Advantage Jordan (5% better)

Shooting Percentage in Playoffs
Jordan: 49%
Kobe: 45%
Advantage Jordan (4% better)

Finals MVP
Jordan: 6
Kobe: 2
Advantage Jordan (4 more - again I stress, Jordan didn't have the luxury of having the premier center in the league his rookie year going into his first several years. Kobe won those titles on Shaq's back).

Scoring Crowns
Jordan: 10
Kobe: 2
Advantage Jordan (8, count em 8 more scoring titles! Jordan almost loops Kobe on this category too. LET ME SAY IT AGAIN - HOW CAN ANYONE SAY KOBE COMPARES TO JORDAN OR IS BETTER THAN HIM? 10-2!))

Consecutive Scoring Titles
Jordan: 7
Kobe: 2
Advantage Jordan (how can Kobe be "just as good" when he only dominated the scoring in the league twice in 15 years?)

Even with 2 seasons of less than 20 games played, in as many seasons, Jordan's numbers are still superior to Kobe's.

Why exactly do people say Kobe is better than Jordan? If he was equal to Jordan or better than him, wouldn't we be seeing at least 1 statistical "ADVANTAGE KOBE?"

The only place Kobe surpasses Jordan is in games played.

Let the record show that anything Kobe does from here on out will be in more games played than Jordan.

Bear in mind too - Jordan's numbers are this superior, not only two of those years being a 17 game season and an 18 game season for him, but he also did it against the Dream Team generation!

wait, there's compelling evidence that mj is better than kobe?

do tell.......

 

[Frank Breakfast Styleham]

First Timer, Mr. Sparrow, Code Blue? Your opinion disgusts me.

 

[Frank Breakfast Styleham]

I doubt Dwight Howard is going to put up a 10 and 6 from now on. He's 25 years old! Nash is going to average at LEAST a double double in a Laker uniform, even with all those guys. And if he doesn't I'd be more than glad to come back on this forum and eat all the crow you want. Glen Rice was just a year away from an All Star season in Charlotte and was still dangerous as a shooter. Karl Malone got hurt so that one isn't as good, Gary Payton still had a year or two left in him.

But even so, Jordan had Pippen and Rodman, Kobe had Shaq, Dwight, Pau Gasol in the prime of their careers WITH an elite shooter, AND two of the top 10 point guards to ever play, PLUS elite defenders with All Star experience, PLUS one of the clutchest players to ever play PLUS two other All Stars.

I asked the forum to come up with a great player who has a more glittering list of teammates than Kobe and I'm not hearing anyone...

Tell you what. I'm gonna go out for a bagel and daiquburi - I'm gonna give you some more time to come up with a great player who had more help than Kobe, and when I settle in to my cozy abode later this evening, it is my hope this forum will produce the name of at least one great player who had more help than Kobe.

Kobe is one fortunate guy.

It's bagel time. Seeya suckers!

Has Kobe even played with Howard and Nash yet? Were guys like Payton, Rice, and Malone in their primes when they played with Kobe?

Your list of Top 5 Centers Jordan played with was terrible. No Robert Parish??? HOFer and Top 50 NBA player?

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

While Kobe did have more help than Michael overall, Michael was lucky enough to have more help than 90% of the other players in the NBA as well.

Scottie Pippen was a freak athlete and was bound to be at least an all-star even if he never played a game with Jordan.

Horace Grant was a monster in his prime.

Dennis Rodman was the greatest rebounding forward of all-time and a very high-IQ player on both ends of the court even though he was well past his prime.

The Bulls' benches were typically as good or better than all of the benches Kobe has had.

And Michael had Collins/Phil and Phil/Tex his entire career with the Bulls. Kobe has had Del Harris, Tomjanovic, and Mike Brown to go along with Phil.

And where the hell is Toni Kukoc? That guy was a great player.

 

[clonetrooper264]

wait, there's compelling evidence that mj is better than kobe?

do tell.......

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

(Stammering) I mean, 6-0 in the Finals with overwhelmingly less help ain't a bad place to start, no?

Never somebody's Robin? Always Batman? ALWAYS victorious in the Finals? Never getting beaten by 40 points in a FINALS ELIMINATION GAME? Never having the luxury of having the best center on earth as soon as he got into the league but having guys like Jawann Oldham and Granville Waiters when Kobe had Shaq and not to mention has a notorious controversy in one of those championship seasons (Game 6, Kings Lakers - Lakers getting 22 gift calls and STILL only winning by a few points...the Kings win that series it was over)?

Every single stat trumping Kobe in every category but games played after the same number of seasons played?

I found the following very interesting from that season after Kobe played his 15th.

Do with this what you wish:

This is Kobe's 15th season.

Michael Jordan played in 15 different NBA seasons, the same amount as Kobe has so far in his career.

Kobe has already played in more games than Jordan (1097-1072) and counting.

Here's what the cold hard objective facts tell us (and keep in mind, this is even counting those 2 years when Jordan only played 17 games due to an injury and only 18 for his first comeback).

Games Played
Jordan: 1072
Kobe: 1097
Advantage: Kobe Bryant

In 15 seasons (so far)...

POINTS
Jordan: 32,292
Kobe: 27,705
Advantage Jordan (4587 more points)

ASSISTS
Jordan: 5633
Kobe: 5129
Advantage Jordan (504 more assists)

REBOUNDS
Jordan: 6672
Kobe: 5803
Advantage Jordan (869 more rebounds)

BLOCKS
Jordan: 893
Kobe: 574
Advantage Jordan (319 more blocks)

STEALS
Jordan: 2514
Kobe: 1645
Advantage Jordan (869 more steals)

MVP Awards
Jordan: 5
Kobe: 1
Advantage Jordan (4, count em 4 more)

Playoff Averages

Games Played
Jordan: 179
Kobe: 198
Advantage Kobe Bryant

Points
Jordan: 33.4 PPG
Kobe: 25.5 PPG
Advantage Jordan

Rebounds
Jordan: 6.4 RPG
Kobe: 5.2 RPG
Advantage Jordan

Assists
Jordan: 5.7 APG
Kobe: 4.8 APG
Advantage Jordan

Steals
Jordan: 2.1 SPG
Kobe: 1.4 SPG
Advantage Jordan

Finals record as the main scoring option on team
Jordan: 6-0
Kobe: 2-2
Advantage: Jordan (4 more titles as a main man of team, never lost like Kobe has twice)

Shooting Percentage
Jordan: 50%
Kobe: 45%
Advantage Jordan (5% better)

Shooting Percentage in Playoffs
Jordan: 49%
Kobe: 45%
Advantage Jordan (4% better)

Finals MVP
Jordan: 6
Kobe: 2
Advantage Jordan (4 more - again I stress, Jordan didn't have the luxury of having the premier center in the league his rookie year going into his first several years. Kobe won those titles on Shaq's back).

Scoring Crowns
Jordan: 10
Kobe: 2
Advantage Jordan (8, count em 8 more scoring titles! Jordan almost loops Kobe on this category too. LET ME SAY IT AGAIN - HOW CAN ANYONE SAY KOBE COMPARES TO JORDAN OR IS BETTER THAN HIM? 10-2!))

Consecutive Scoring Titles
Jordan: 7
Kobe: 2
Advantage Jordan (how can Kobe be "just as good" when he only dominated the scoring in the league twice in 15 years?)

Even with 2 seasons of less than 20 games played, in as many seasons, Jordan's numbers are still superior to Kobe's.

Why exactly do people say Kobe is better than Jordan? If he was equal to Jordan or better than him, wouldn't we be seeing at least 1 statistical "ADVANTAGE KOBE?"

The only place Kobe surpasses Jordan is in games played.

Let the record show that anything Kobe does from here on out will be in more games played than Jordan.

Bear in mind too - Jordan's numbers are this superior, not only two of those years being a 17 game season and an 18 game season for him, but he also did it against the Dream Team generation!

wow, i think these numbers really gave me a new perspective into this whole debate. great job.

 

[FirstTimer]

Kobe>Mj

 

[ursamajor]

Even Kobe, both publicly and privately knows that he is nowhere near Jordan

Tapatalking

 

[Frank Breakfast Styleham]

Well, here's the thang that be chillin'.

Kobe has a lot of nerve coming out and taking shots at Smush Parker and Chris Mihm and Kwame, complaining he didn't have enough help.

Kobe, you had the luxury of being traded to a franchise who just happened to have signed the best center in the league as soon as you came into it. You won THREE championships on his giant Baq.

You have had Shaquille O'Neal, Andrew Bynum and now DWIGHT Howard on your team!

You have had 2 of the top 7 if not top 5 point guards to EVER play the game bringing the ball down the court for your team!

You have had one of the best forwards in the game for the last 5 years to go with one of the top defenders in the league.

No great player in the HISTORY of the NBA has had MORE HELP THAN YOU.

For every Smush Parker and Chris Mihm you played with momentarily you had 3 first ballot Hall of Famers and 6 All Stars at various points in your career.

For 98% of your career you were spoiled by a gluttonous franchise who seems to be able to get anyone they want to (save Chris Paul thankfully) for nothing while other stars are living on food stamps as far as help goes.

LeBron James had to LEAVE Cleveland so he could finally have some help. Kevin Garnett had to be traded from Boston before he could have some teammates who could help him more.

But for 15 seasons out of 17 you have feasted sumptuously with caviar and fine wine while other good players spent 15 of 17 seasons eating Raamen. And when that wasn't the case TWO times out of SEVENTEEN, you bring it up like you're some kind of victim.

Kobe NEEDS TO ZIP IT UP.