Noah Spence

[Tall Glass Of Jeffery]

Khalil Mack is an example of a player that ticked all the boxes except that elite level competition.

Production - 100 tackles, 18.5 for loss, 10.5 sacks, 3 picks and 7 pds in 13 games his senior year.
Senior Bowl - DNP. Many thought this might hurt his stock. It didn't.
Combine - Blew it up. One of the top performers in the 40, vertical jump, broad jump and shuttle.
Off Field - Clean. No arrests, drugs or items that made his team look bad.

As for Spence:

Production - 63 tackles, 22.5 for loss, 11.5 sacks, 0 picks and 0 pds in 11 games his senior year.
Senior Bowl - Blew it up. Consistently won all week and had a good bowl game.
Combine - TBD
Off Field - Lied about having trace elements of Ecstasy, a hard drug, in his blood. Was later admitted to a treatment center (i.e. rehab) and was then cut by Ohio State.

Is Spence as good at Mack? I'm unsure. From watching some of Spence's old tape and remembering Mack as the prospect they are both similar at the point of attack, but Mack was extremely good in space. He could play any LB spot in any system whereas Spence seemed at his best going forward.

It's an interesting comparison, but I think there are some tangible differences between the two prospects.

I remember Mack getting a lot of Von Miller comparisons because they both could do it all. Miller was also exceptional in space, which was on display this past Superbowl when he would cover RBs/TEs step for step.

Only comparison I'm using is the small school comparison...not comparing them as players. I'm just saying I don't think him playing at a small school should hurt his stock and I've yet to here that label for him.

 

[Smokey Robinson]

No, Fangio doesn't value length. The 49ers GM values arm length as was stated on here in a link during the arm length argument of last year.

So we're clear though the Bears will pass on the best OLB edge rusher in this year's draft because his arm length is about 1/2 inch less than ideal than his height.

A half inch in arm length will cause the Bears to avoid drafting the best pass rusher that seems completely logical and reasonable it's a v whole 1/2 inch.

Bullshit. He has said it himself how valuable length is in a pass rusher. Name one pass rusher brought in to play under Fangio, in SF or CHI, with less than 34" arms. There aren't any. Spence has 31" arm length which is a hindrance as an edge rusher no matter how you slice it.

 

[BearsFan51]

Bullshit. He has said it himself how valuable length is in a pass rusher. Name one pass rusher brought in to play under Fangio, in SF or CHI, with less than 34" arms. There aren't any. Spence has 31" arm length which is a hindrance as an edge rusher no matter how you slice it.

Dude Fangio was the defensive coordinator for the 49ers for all of four years. You act like Fangio was there for a number of years in San Francisco and developed this decade's long profile of the ideal player.

Aldon Smith was an elite athlete with tremendous open field change of direction ability. Arm length isn't as important as guys who can get off the ball and bend the edge. James Harrison Elvis Dumerville and Dwight Freeney are prime example of the most important thing being that guy that can run the curl and get underneath the blocker. It's why Orlando Pace failed so miserably in Chicago he could no longer bend his knees or sink his hips enough to keep guys from getting under and around him.

Randy Gregory was the long armed prospect of a year ago and was the last guy drafted because he was the worst pass rusher. The Bears didn't take him in the second round when presented the opportunity because he couldn't play.

Is Noah Spence a great pass rusher yes, end of debate.

If you want to talk about Shillique Calhoun then let's have that discussion but this arm length only discussion on guys that are better overall pass rushers is stupid.

 

[BearsFan51]

Here's the Trent Baalke arm length article which is where the Fangio comparison comes from.
http://www.ninersnation.com/2014/2/...-arm-length-and-2014-nfl-combine-measurements

 

[da_bears6]

Dude Fangio was the defensive coordinator for the 49ers for all of four years. You act like Fangio was there for a number of years in San Francisco and developed this decade's long profile of the ideal player.

Aldon Smith was an elite athlete with tremendous open field change of direction ability. Arm length isn't as important as guys who can get off the ball and bend the edge. James Harrison Elvis Dumerville and Dwight Freeney are prime example of the most important thing being that guy that can run the curl and get underneath the blocker. It's why Orlando Pace failed so miserably in Chicago he could no longer bend his knees or sink his hips enough to keep guys from getting under and around him.

Randy Gregory was the long armed prospect of a year ago and was the last guy drafted because he was the worst pass rusher. The Bears didn't take him in the second round when presented the opportunity because he couldn't play.

Is Noah Spence a great pass rusher yes, end of debate.

If you want to talk about Shillique Calhoun then let's have that discussion but this arm length only discussion on guys that are better overall pass rushers is stupid.

Why can't all your posts be like this.

 

[BearsFan51]

Why can't all your posts be like this.

Pay attention more. I'm only occasionally a monumental prick.

 

[Wild_x_Card]

Pace also puts a premium on Length. He said as much last year when talking about Oline, Dline and CBs. Im pretty certain he'd make exceptions. If not he's just pigeon holing himself and will miss out on some prospects over the years.

 

[Pegger]

Is Spence more like Khalil Mack or Dee Ford?

 

[ZenBear34]

Is Spence more like Khalil Mack or Dee Ford?

He's closer to Mack. Ford was a pure, straight line rusher. I personally wasn't a big fan of Ford. He had no power to his game and if he didn't win with speed it as over.

I don't think Spence is quite on Mack's level as a prospect, but he's close. Spence reminds me a little of Terrell Suggs.

 

[BearsFan51]

Is Spence more like Khalil Mack or Dee Ford?

Ford was an underweight speed rusher who played with a ton of finesse. Spence was bull rushing OTs during the East West Shrine and Senior Bowl practice weeks.

Spence is 6-2 1/2 254-pounds, Ford played at around 235 for the Auburn Tigers.

 

[rawdawg]

Is Spence more like Khalil Mack or Dee Ford?

Neither really. Mack is better in space. Ford is all speed, no pass rush moves/technique. I think Spence is one of those guys that gets to the QB in a variety of ways. Good, not elite first step. Good, not elite speed. Good, not elite power. Elite pass rush moves. And he'll use it all to beat his man.

 

[Pegger]

Ford was an underweight speed rusher who played with a ton of finesse. Spence was bull rushing OTs during the East West Shrine and Senior Bowl practice weeks.

Spence is 6-2 1/2 254-pounds, Ford played at around 235 for the Auburn Tigers.

Dee Ford measured in at 6'2, 252lbs (with 32 7/8 arms and 10 1/4 hands) at the combine. I agree he played lighter, but at the same weight on his proday he performed well across teh board. I'm not saying that means they are the same, but physically they could be closer than we think.

As for Spence whipping up on the Shrime game participants IMO it doesn't mean much. Looking at the attendees and past draft history a majority of them won't be a UFDA let alone get drafted. The Senior Bowl is a bit more valid, but let's really put this into context. At one point or another he was put up against one of the following players:

Vadal Alexander
Le'Raven Clark
Spencer Drango
Joe Haeg
Kyle Murphy
Jason Spriggs
John Theus
Cole Toner
Willie Beavers
Joe Dahl
Josh Garnett
Nick Martin
Connor McGovern
Sebastian Tretola
Christian Westerman
Cody Whitehair

By all accounts he won most if not all his individual battles. My question back to you is how many of those players have a first round grade? I've seen Whitehair have late first consideration if he moves inside to guard, but not as a tackle. Maybe another way to look at this, how many of those players will probably go undrafted? My guess is a good bunch will be undrafted. Maybe to add some clarity there here's the 2015 OL attendees of the Senior Bowl:

Trenton Brown (OT), Florida
T.J. Clemmings (OT), Pittsburgh
Jamil Douglas (OT), Arizona State
Max Garcia (C), Florida
Rob Havenstein (OT), Wisconsin
Chris Jasperse (C), Marshall
Ali Marpet (OT), Hobart
Donovan Smith (OT), Penn State
Robert Myers (G), Tennessee State
Laken Tomlinson (G), Duke
La'el Collins (OT), LSU
Dillon Day (C), Mississippi State
Reese Dismukes (C), Auburn
Tayo Fabuluje (OT), TCU
Tre' Jackson (G), Florida State
Arie Kouandjio (G), Alabama
Shaq Mason (G), Georgia Tech
Ty Sambrailo (OT), Colorado State
Austin Shepherd (OT), Alabama
Daryl Williams (OT), Oklahoma

I'm a bit too lazy to check, but how many starts do you think that pool of OL talent had this past season?

The point I'm getting at is the level of competition when trying to understand if they can take the next step.

Oh yeah, For what it's worth Dee Ford was dominant at the Senior Bowl too.

 

[rawdawg]

Dee Ford measured in at 6'2, 252lbs (with 32 7/8 arms and 10 1/4 hands) at the combine. I agree he played lighter, but at the same weight on his proday he performed well across teh board. I'm not saying that means they are the same, but physically they could be closer than we think.

As for Spence whipping up on the Shrime game participants IMO it doesn't mean much. Looking at the attendees and past draft history a majority of them won't be a UFDA let alone get drafted. The Senior Bowl is a bit more valid, but let's really put this into context. At one point or another he was put up against one of the following players:

Vadal Alexander
Le'Raven Clark
Spencer Drango
Joe Haeg
Kyle Murphy
Jason Spriggs
John Theus
Cole Toner
Willie Beavers
Joe Dahl
Josh Garnett
Nick Martin
Connor McGovern
Sebastian Tretola
Christian Westerman
Cody Whitehair

By all accounts he won most if not all his individual battles. My question back to you is how many of those players have a first round grade? I've seen Whitehair have late first consideration if he moves inside to guard, but not as a tackle. Maybe another way to look at this, how many of those players will probably go undrafted? My guess is a good bunch will be undrafted. Maybe to add some clarity there here's the 2015 OL attendees of the Senior Bowl:

Trenton Brown (OT), Florida
T.J. Clemmings (OT), Pittsburgh
Jamil Douglas (OT), Arizona State
Max Garcia (C), Florida
Rob Havenstein (OT), Wisconsin
Chris Jasperse (C), Marshall
Ali Marpet (OT), Hobart
Donovan Smith (OT), Penn State
Robert Myers (G), Tennessee State
Laken Tomlinson (G), Duke
La'el Collins (OT), LSU
Dillon Day (C), Mississippi State
Reese Dismukes (C), Auburn
Tayo Fabuluje (OT), TCU
Tre' Jackson (G), Florida State
Arie Kouandjio (G), Alabama
Shaq Mason (G), Georgia Tech
Ty Sambrailo (OT), Colorado State
Austin Shepherd (OT), Alabama
Daryl Williams (OT), Oklahoma

I'm a bit too lazy to check, but how many starts do you think that pool of OL talent had this past season?

The point I'm getting at is the level of competition is still important.

Oh yeah, For what it's worth Dee Ford was dominant at the Senior Bowl too.

Spence played in the Senior Bowl, not the Shrine Game. Whitehair and Spriggs are 1st rounders, and at least half those guys are top 100 picks.

 

[Pegger]

Spence played in the Senior Bowl, not the Shrine Game. Whitehair and Spriggs are 1st rounders, and at least half those guys are top 100 picks.

RE: Shirne Game - You are right. I really pay no attention to that game and was just going off of the BF51 quote:

Spence was bull rushing OTs during the East West Shrine and Senior Bowl practice weeks.

RE: OL Prospects at the Senior Bowl - Spriggs could be a first rounder. I've been reading more 2nd, but your point is still taken. I also think a bunch will be in the top 100 and feel this draft is deep in both DL and OL and starters could be had in rounds 3-5. I guess my point is that he still went against some players that won't be drafted. Beating those guys is still better than not beating them, but what does it really say? I referenced Dee Ford not saying I think he's like him, but threre's a player with some comparibles (size is close and Senior Bowl production seems close too). Are their games the same? No, but then again it was more posted to get people off the comparison that he's the next Khalil Mack/Von Miller.

 

[BearsFan51]

If you look at Ford and Spence on film it's more than apparent that they are completely different players physically. Spence is very thick and muscular especially strong in the legs. Ford is a one dimensional quick twitch player.

If you're looking for a reason to rip Spence go do it with someone else, I don't have time for B.S.

 

[Pegger]

I'm not hating on Spence. The post was created thinking because Von Miller blew it up then Spence's value should jump up. I'm more saynig that he's not Von Miller or even Khalil Mack. He's something else. When I compare him to Dee Ford it's merely to broaden the discussion.

My thoughts are that Spence will go at the end of the first, early second. Some teams will like him more than others and I think there's off field items that other prospects just don't have. I think there's a bunch of off field stuff that counters some of his bad (Academic All Star and how his father essentially guilted him to telling the truth), but that doesn't remove some of the bad.

Also, when you say you don't have time for this BS, but then reply it implies that despite not liking the topic you are willing to make time for this BS.

 

[Tall Glass Of Jeffery]

Dee Ford measured in at 6'2, 252lbs (with 32 7/8 arms and 10 1/4 hands) at the combine. I agree he played lighter, but at the same weight on his proday he performed well across teh board. I'm not saying that means they are the same, but physically they could be closer than we think.

As for Spence whipping up on the Shrime game participants IMO it doesn't mean much. Looking at the attendees and past draft history a majority of them won't be a UFDA let alone get drafted. The Senior Bowl is a bit more valid, but let's really put this into context. At one point or another he was put up against one of the following players:

Vadal Alexander
Le'Raven Clark
Spencer Drango
Joe Haeg
Kyle Murphy
Jason Spriggs
John Theus
Cole Toner
Willie Beavers
Joe Dahl
Josh Garnett
Nick Martin
Connor McGovern
Sebastian Tretola
Christian Westerman
Cody Whitehair

By all accounts he won most if not all his individual battles. My question back to you is how many of those players have a first round grade? I've seen Whitehair have late first consideration if he moves inside to guard, but not as a tackle. Maybe another way to look at this, how many of those players will probably go undrafted? My guess is a good bunch will be undrafted. Maybe to add some clarity there here's the 2015 OL attendees of the Senior Bowl:

Trenton Brown (OT), Florida
T.J. Clemmings (OT), Pittsburgh
Jamil Douglas (OT), Arizona State
Max Garcia (C), Florida
Rob Havenstein (OT), Wisconsin
Chris Jasperse (C), Marshall
Ali Marpet (OT), Hobart
Donovan Smith (OT), Penn State
Robert Myers (G), Tennessee State
Laken Tomlinson (G), Duke
La'el Collins (OT), LSU
Dillon Day (C), Mississippi State
Reese Dismukes (C), Auburn
Tayo Fabuluje (OT), TCU
Tre' Jackson (G), Florida State
Arie Kouandjio (G), Alabama
Shaq Mason (G), Georgia Tech
Ty Sambrailo (OT), Colorado State
Austin Shepherd (OT), Alabama
Daryl Williams (OT), Oklahoma

I'm a bit too lazy to check, but how many starts do you think that pool of OL talent had this past season?

The point I'm getting at is the level of competition when trying to understand if they can take the next step.

Oh yeah, For what it's worth Dee Ford was dominant at the Senior Bowl too.

From that list...Alexander, Clark, Drango, Murphy, Spriggs, Garnett, Martin, McGovern, Tretola, Westerman, and Whitehair are all for sure getting drafted.