OT: Are the Pistons Really This Stupid?

[??? ??????]

This is one of the saddest, most dysfunctional teams in the league right now.

Right now their starters include: (Stats going into the Spurs game)

Rodney Stuckey - 19.0 PPG on 48.6 TS%
Rip Hamilton - 17.4 PPG on 44.7 TS%
Tayshaun Prince - 10.1 PPG on 46.6 TS%
Jason Maxiell - 5.1 PPG on 50.1 TS%
Ben Wallace - 4.3 PPG on 46.6 TS%

As I've stated in the past, if a player can't score above 50 TS%, they really shouldn't be seeing any minutes in the NBA, unless they are a defensive big men (so Ben Wallace gets a pass here). The Pistons only have ONE player in that starting five with a TS% greater than 50% (and Jason Maxiell will be below 50% too after his 1-5 shooting night against the Spurs).

Gordon's getting paid $11.6 million a year, and Charlie Villanueva $7 million a year, and both are coming off the bench.

The idiocy of this, is that these two players have been the Pistons best players this season.

Ben Gordon - 18.1 PPG on 55.7 TS%
Charlie Villanueva - 13.9 PPG on 52.0 TS%

Why would you pay these guys big money to come off the bench, let alone, after they've shown that they're your two best players?

Ben Gordon is placed in a bench player role that he looks completely uncomfortable with. He comes in the game in the first half and gets up maybe 3 shots in the first half. Then in the second half, when he comes in, the Pistons are down double digits, and he's expected to shoot them back into the game, after Stuckey, Hamitlon, and Prince have already solidified their bad shooting nights.

The only explanation I can think of is that they're playing Hamilton/Prince so they can trade them at the deadline. Jason Maxiell is only starting over Charlie V. because of some feud he had with Keuster.

The Pistons now have 11 losses in a row (yet are still only 4 games out of the playoffs, which shows the sad state of the East) and are in complete disarray.

How long can the Piston's idiocy of benching their big free agent acquisitions, and two best players continue?

 

[Shakes]

In fairness Hamilton and Prince have been injured, so their numbers are a small sample size. They're not as bad as they've played so far, plus they've been starters for a long time, so I imagine no coach is going to want to risk sending them to the bench and having a player revolt on his hands when he's already taking heat for a big losing streak.

Maxiell over Charlie V is pretty unexplainable though. Funnily enough their 6 game win streak before this losing streak started when they sent him to the bench, so I don't know if they're still thinking about that.

 

[houheffna]

Here we are again, looking at stats and not the games. If you think Hamilton doesn't deserve playing time because you are looking at stats...you are kidding yourself.

Stuckey is the best ball handler they have...he is a shoot first pg right now...a poor man's Baron Davis at his best.

Hamilton is the best wing player they have...he should be fine...but not good enough to trade.

Charlie V. is hurt and has been for a while...don't know how much he can handle additional responsibility as far as playing time.

Gordon has sucked for the last couple of weeks overall and he has had some of the worst games of his career. And no, no one is doubling him at all...he just sucks...they are letting him shoot...I can't see him playing this bad the remainder of the season, but he is not better than Hamilton...Hamilton is better right now.

 

[??? ??????]

Are you kidding? Teams are sending constant help when Gordon is running around screens.

Just in the Mavericks game, on the posession the Pistons had to try to tie the game, the Mavs doubled Gordon, with a third guy waiting for him to come around a screen as well, leaving Stuckey wide open to brick a three.

 

[houheffna]

Are you kidding? Teams are sending constant help when Gordon is running around screens.

Just in the Mavericks game, on the posession the Pistons had to try to tie the game, the Mavs doubled Gordon, with a third guy waiting for him to come around a screen as well, leaving Stuckey wide open to brick a three.

No they are not sending constant help...he is missing shots he used to hit...sounds familiar? He is having a down year so far...that is not his teammates fault...no way I start him over Hamilton...in the last couple of weeks, Hamilton is better as expected.

 

[TheStig]

I don't know how you can really say that when they haven't won a game since Rip came back. I haven't been watching them but the results speak for themselves.

 

[houheffna]

I don't know how you can really say that when they haven't won a game since Rip came back. I haven't been watching them but the results speak for themselves.

I HAVE been watching them...Gordon is no difference maker out there but Hamilton hasn't been that great either. And Gordon hasn't done very much in the clutch...maybe its the new surroundings...maybe he needs the Bulls....

 

[Hendu0520]

LOL, once again I guess PO3 should just announce that TS% is the most important stat ever known to man. That and +/- are just soooo acurate. I'll say it again, this is not Baseball, stats should back up observations not be the basis of your argument.

Like Heff said Prince and Hamilton have been injured and are working their way back, why would you bench the 2 players who are left from your championship team that are still in their primes? Prince and Hamilton play much better defense, and I guess that and rebounding doesn't count.

Just because Gordon is being double teamed on the last play of the game doesn't mean he should start. He is a big time crunch time shooter doesn't mean that he is better than Rip.

The Pistons problem is the fact that they stacked their team with a bunch of guards. That formula has been proven to bring championships, ha, the great Joe Dumars lol for 2 years he made some great moves and all other years he has been horrible. NBA.com keeps leading the Joe Dumars hype machine calling Jerebko the greatest steal in this draft, lol.

 

[??? ??????]

Hendu0520 wrote:

LOL, once again I guess PO3 should just announce that TS% is the most important stat ever known to man. That and +/- are just soooo acurate. I'll say it again, this is not Baseball, stats should back up observations not be the basis of your argument.

Like Heff said Prince and Hamilton have been injured and are working their way back, why would you bench the 2 players who are left from your championship team that are still in their primes? Prince and Hamilton play much better defense, and I guess that and rebounding doesn't count.

Just because Gordon is being double teamed on the last play of the game doesn't mean he should start. He is a big time crunch time shooter doesn't mean that he is better than Rip.

The Pistons problem is the fact that they stacked their team with a bunch of guards. That formula has been proven to bring championships, ha, the great Joe Dumars lol for 2 years he made some great moves and all other years he has been horrible. NBA.com keeps leading the Joe Dumars hype machine calling Jerebko the greatest steal in this draft, lol.

TS% and +/- shouldn't be lumped. +/- is dependent on what your team does when you're out on the court. TS% is completely dependent on how well you put the basketball in the basket. The stat says that Gordon does a fairly good job at putting the ball in the basket, and Richard Hamilton does a piss poor job.

 

[Hendu0520]

TS% and +/- are linked because there are multiple factors that can affect those numbers and people usually just pick one. Example: Rondo has about a 50%TS and he has one of the worst jumpers in the league. Players that drive more tend to have a better shooting %. Multiple PG's have better TS% than SG's who mainly shoot jumpers because when you only shoot jumpers your shooting % goes down. Also it depends on your team and when and where you are taking said shots. Rip is not driving at all right now coming off his injury, and I hate his mask, I would bench him just for that, lol.

And TS% is one aspect of the game, how can you just use that and say a guy needs to be benched? I agree Rip hasn't looked better than Ben lately but he should get better.


+/- is the worst stat mainly to me bacause everytime I keep track I come up with a different number than 82Games or NBA.com, and there are waaaaay too many factors contributing to that stat which have nothing to do with the player. (Kirk Hinrich always seems to have a great +/-, that about sums up that stat to me) Something that has always confused me: let's say J. Salmons goes to the foul line and the Bulls are up 4. He makes 1 FT and DRose is subbed in, does the next FT count as the starting point for when Rose is in the game or because Salmons got fouled while he wasn't in the game it shouldn't start till after the 2nd FT right? What a dumb stat, I guess its kinda interesting though.

 

[Shakes]

The fact that your TS% goes down if you shoot lots of jumpers tells me you shouldn't shoot lots of jumpers, not that TS% is a bad stat.

Also +/- has historically tended to make Kirk look bad, not good. For example, the year he made the 2nd team all-D, the Bulls gave up fewer points per possession with him on the bench.

 

[houheffna]

Well I can tell you BG couldn't hit the side of a barn the way he has played lately...his last decent game was against Chicago. He has definitely taken a step back from last year and the Detroit fans are beginning the grumble a little bit...

 

[cool007]

I am sorry Houston but BOTH Prince and Hamilton have really SUCKED this year. When Pistons played their best was when they had Gordon/Stuckey/Rooks/Bynum and at times CV were playing the majority of the minutes. They were competitive and winning games.

With the lineup they have with Rip and Prince, they are beyond sucking.

The only reason I can think of is to up their trade value by thinking that they will start playing upto their capabilities and their value is up again so it would be easier to find a suitor.

If not, they are plain dumb. If they don't produce and help the team win or be atleast competitive then they should be going to the bench whether they whine in the media or whatever.

 

[vhans5219]

Prince and Hamilton are getting old and that's why the Pistons suck. They need to play the young guys more and if they do that they'll break out of their slump and they need to start Ben Gordon over Hamilton.

 

[jsain360]

houheffna wrote:

Well I can tell you BG couldn't hit the side of a barn the way he has played lately...his last decent game was against Chicago. He has definitely taken a step back from last year and the Detroit fans are beginning the grumble a little bit...

A lot of piston fans I've talked to asked if the Bulls have a return policy.

 

[houheffna]

I am sorry Houston but BOTH Prince and Hamilton have really SUCKED this year. When Pistons played their best was when they had Gordon/Stuckey/Rooks/Bynum and at times CV were playing the majority of the minutes. They were competitive and winning games.

With the lineup they have with Rip and Prince, they are beyond sucking.

The only reason I can think of is to up their trade value by thinking that they will start playing upto their capabilities and their value is up again so it would be easier to find a suitor.

If not, they are plain dumb. If they don't produce and help the team win or be atleast competitive then they should be going to the bench whether they whine in the media or whatever.

They have all sucked in the last couple of weeks...Gordon is not exempt. What it comes down too? They spent a lot of money unnecessarily and are now handcuffed. Essentially you traded away Billups to get Gordon...bad move...at least for the present.

 

[TheStig]

jsain360 wrote:

houheffna wrote:

Well I can tell you BG couldn't hit the side of a barn the way he has played lately...his last decent game was against Chicago. He has definitely taken a step back from last year and the Detroit fans are beginning the grumble a little bit...

A lot of piston fans I've talked to asked if the Bulls have a return policy.

Yes, we provide Kirk Hinrich and John Salmons as replacements.

 

[Hendu0520]

Shakes wrote:

The fact that your TS% goes down if you shoot lots of jumpers tells me you shouldn't shoot lots of jumpers, not that TS% is a bad stat.

Also +/- has historically tended to make Kirk look bad, not good. For example, the year he made the 2nd team all-D, the Bulls gave up fewer points per possession with him on the bench.

Really Shakes? Look at theleaders in TS% and tell me if it looks like the top 10 players in league? It's not a bad stat but the people who use it act like it is the holy grail of stats.

The leader in TS% is Mike Miller but we can throw him out because he only has played in 9 games. The 2 and 3 spots are held by Big Men Erik Dampier and Kendrick Perkins. Why and how could they be up there and most of the leaders are big men? Because big men shoot higher percentage shots.

Ty Lawson is one slot ahead of Lebron James. Tim Thomas and Juwon Howard have TS% of 59% wow I guess the Pistons should trade Tayshaun for them.

PO3 posted PPG and TS% as his only reasoning for benching Rip and Tayshaun and I simply hate when people do that. So you and PO3 should assemble a top 5 from TS% and I'll go off my observations who do you think will have a better team?

You guys would have to take Miller, Dampier, Perkins, Nash (your savior), and Nick Collison. What a team.

 

[Shakes]

Obviously you have to look at things like volume of shots too. Someone who takes 2 shots a game at 60% TS% isn't as valuable as one who takes 20 at 58%. I'm never said ts% is the only stat worth looking at, but I did argue against people who said it's a useless stat. The ability to score efficiently is clearly a major factor in winning games, the team that shoots better wins the majority of games.

The argument here is between Hamilton and Gordon, who take a comparable volume of shots and play a similar role. In such a case then the fact Gordon is shooting much better than Hamilton does tell us a lot. Instead of addressing the meat of that argument, you've gone off and made a straw-man that I'd rather have Dampier than Kobe or LeBron because he shoots a higher percentage.

FWIW I already said I wouldn't bench Hamilton on the basis that he's just coming back from injury and so isn't yet playing at his normal level, and if I was coaching the team the last thing I'd want is player unhappiness about their roles.

 

[st. park]

Hendu0520 wrote:

Shakes wrote:

The fact that your TS% goes down if you shoot lots of jumpers tells me you shouldn't shoot lots of jumpers, not that TS% is a bad stat.

Also +/- has historically tended to make Kirk look bad, not good. For example, the year he made the 2nd team all-D, the Bulls gave up fewer points per possession with him on the bench.

Really Shakes? Look at theleaders in TS% and tell me if it looks like the top 10 players in league? It's not a bad stat but the people who use it act like it is the holy grail of stats.

The leader in TS% is Mike Miller but we can throw him out because he only has played in 9 games. The 2 and 3 spots are held by Big Men Erik Dampier and Kendrick Perkins. Why and how could they be up there and most of the leaders are big men? Because big men shoot higher percentage shots.

Ty Lawson is one slot ahead of Lebron James. Tim Thomas and Juwon Howard have TS% of 59% wow I guess the Pistons should trade Tayshaun for them.

PO3 posted PPG and TS% as his only reasoning for benching Rip and Tayshaun and I simply hate when people do that. So you and PO3 should assemble a top 5 from TS% and I'll go off my observations who do you think will have a better team?

You guys would have to take Miller, Dampier, Perkins, Nash (your savior), and Nick Collison. What a team.

You are grossly misrepresenting the TS% stat. TS% is a very valuable statistic that directly measures a player's scoring efficiency. There's no subjectivity to the statistic, like you seem to think by comparing it to +/-. Like Shakes said, obviously, you have to look at the volume of shots as well; that with TS% will get a very accurate picture at the best scorers in this league. Juwon Howard, Tim Thomas, and Ty Lawson have taken very few shots. Since you've made the baseball comparison, it's like looking at a spot player who's had 100 AB, and has posted an OPS of .950. That player has played well, but you don't take him over a player with 500 AB with an OPS of .900. You have to look at it along with usage or volume; this is just simple logic.

Once again, the stats aren't the problem, if you know how to interpret them in proper context.