OT: Kobe as the Greatest Closer? Huh?

[Hendu0520]

Ok Friday June 12, on PTI Wilbon pointed to Kobe Bryant's pass to Derrick Fisher and referred to Kobe as the greatest closer in the game. What? Yes he is great but there is no way that he is the greatest closer in the game. And was Wilbon watching Game 4? Did he notice that if Howard hits a FT then Kobe would have been the choker in 2 consecutive games down the stretch.

According to 82Games.com He is 4th on the list of game winners since 03-04.
Lebron, Vince Carter, Ray Allen are all ahead of him. His percentage is 25% on game winners and the league average is 30%. All the players in the top 50 have a better percentage than him. Wow that is amazing to me to see. Also in another forum someone pointed out to me that the Lakers are worse than the Bulls in fourth quarter scoring but yet they are going to be the Champions? That is also a reflection of their best player.

The story after Game 3 was wow, Kobe lost it for the Lakers, he shot poorly, got blocked and turned the ball over down the stretch and the Lakers lost. Oh he just had 1 off night, even MJ had off nights. Ya but MJ never had 2 off nights in a row, never, ever! Was he tired? Nope he did the same thing he did in Game 2!! Only Game 2 Lee misses the layup Lamar Odom/Gasol come up big in OT and the Lakers win. Bail out number 1. But I wanna break down Game 4 to show you that yes 3 out of the 4 games so far that supposedly he will be remembered for leading his team to the Chip and dropping 35 8 and 8 every game ooohh, those assist stats are bogus anyway, look at the film, he gets an assist for every pass he makes, its a load of crap.

Well here is the end of Game 4: 4:48 left in the 4th. Kobe Bryant just hit a short 10 footer in the lane to give the Lakers a 79-76 lead, I repeat with 4:48 to go the Lakers have a 3 point lead.

Orlando scores on a dunk by Howard assist by J. Nelson to cut the lead to 1. 78-79 Lakers.

Lakers ball, Kobe gets the ball iso top of key, drives the lane on Peitrus. Howard, Turkoglu, and Rashard Lewis all collapse on Kobe in the paint, does he pass? Nope, Kobe gets blocked Orlando goes the other way and Lewis misses a wide open three pointer, oh bailed out this time Kobay.

Kobe brings it up now 3:30 remainging gives to Gasol who gets doubled and smartly kicks it back out to Kobe who was WIDE open at the top of the key. BRICK! He has never really been that great at spot up shooting, he has to put the ball on the floor, another reason he can't be like MIKE.

Turkoglu comes down and drives the lane and gets fouled. Bryant at this point is guarding Pietrus, not the best player? That's fine with me I would rest him for offense too, but stupid espn announcers love to say that Kobe always takes the top scorer down the stretch of the game when in fact Ariza does most of the time. Turkoglu misses one, now it is tied 79-79 with 3 min left.

Kobe decides on the next possession that he is tired and needs to take the play off. So he goes to the left elbow and just stands there and doesn't move. He watches Derrick Fisher make a wild move in the lane and get blocked the Magic run the fast break and DHoward gets a layup and the foul on guess who KOBE. So far he is closing this game really great. Ha! And Howard makes the FT 82-79 Magic 2:58 left, Didn't the Lakers have a 3 point lead just a minute ago? And don't they have the best closer in the game? Oh he will come up big here don't worry.

Out of a timeout Bryant gets the ball at the top of the key and drives against Pietrus again. This time only 3 people collapse, he jumps up like he wants to take the shot and then decides oh know I'll get blocked so he tries to force a pass to Gasol but Turk is there and was so surprised that he couldn't hold on and the Lakers got the ball back in a scramble, wheeew Fisher has it now, if I were you I would keep it away from that Kobe guy he keeps givin it to the other team. So Ariza decides he isn't passing to that fool and steps to the top of the key and drains a huge 3pointer, that's how your supposed to do it KOBE!! 82-82 2:20 left.

Turkoglu hits a three 85-82. 2:00 left, I guess its the Ariza vs Turk show.

Now the Lakers get it and Kobe goes to the block. His teammates give it to Gasol on the block though instead so Kobe cuts to the top of the key. Once again his man doubled Gasol off of Kobe but this time knowing Kobe would probably miss, Gasol decides to shoot a turnaround over Howard. Bad idea, Howard eats that up with a block and the Magic have the ball again. Maybe if Gasol had confidence that Kobe would make a shot he would have passed it.

Turk comes down and hits a runner in the lane to make it 87-82 with 1:34 remaining.

Now comes the worst shot ever! With 1o remaining down 5 Kobe gets the ball on the wing about 35 ft from the basket, way behind the 3 point line. Doesn't make a move, lets the shotclock run down and launches a horrible, contested, jumper that had no chance of going in. Wow that was your decision, was he serious. If I were on his team I would have punched him in the face for taking that shot and accused him of point shaving. But lets move on.

This is when the Magic just hand it to the Lakers. Turk misses a layup and the Magic don't get back on D, Kobe makes a beautiful spin move, and behind the back pass to Gasol for a dunk. Ooh one good play finally. 87-84 Magic.

That was the game leading up to Howard missing the FT's and Fisher hitting the big shot. Game 2 was very similar to that.

Oh and in overtime, Kobe came out and hit his first 2 shots but then started to mess up again. With 1:57 left in ot he airballed a shot and he could have been called for a foul on the big pass to Fisher. Earlier in the playoffs Howard or Alston got a Flagrant for that which was later taken away but he did get called for a foul, and someone got called for swinging their elbows with the ball in the Celtics/Magic series as well.

Yes he is good but I just hate that everyone makes him out to be something he is not. I'd take Lebron or Dwayne Wade over him so I hate when people act like its fact that he is the best closer in the game, so false.

Oh and I heard something else as well in Sports Illustrated, about how he is learning to be a leader just like Jordan had to do. What? are you kidding me? Kobe is 30 and had played 4 or 5 more seasons than Jordan had who was in his 7th season and was 27 or 28 when he won his first Chip. By 30 MJ had 3 Finals MVP's on his way to 6. Kobay is getting his first and really is he happy with his performances so far?, other than game 1, I wouldn't be!

 

[MADman24]

Hendu0520 wrote:

Yes he is good but I just hate that everyone makes him out to be something he is not. I'd take Lebron or Dwayne Wade over him so I hate when people act like its fact that he is the best closer in the game, so false.

Oh and I heard something else as well in Sports Illustrated, about how he is learning to be a leader just like Jordan had to do. What? are you kidding me? Kobe is 30 and had played 4 or 5 more seasons than Jordan had who was in his 7th season and was 27 or 28 when he won his first Chip. By 30 MJ had 3 Finals MVP's on his way to 6. Kobay is getting his first and really is he happy with his performances so far?, other than game 1, I wouldn't be!

I can't see taking Wade over Kobe down the stretch, what if you need a 3? What if you need good man defense? Wade isn't a good 3point shooter and isn't nearly as good of a man-to-man defender, sure he racks up the steals and blocks but very rarely are those on his man and that is a product of how the Heat play.

On the leadership issue, I don't think it's possible to judge that fairly. Basically when a team wins a championship their best player is applauded for his leadership regardless of circumstance. You can't give tangible evidence to suggest any player is a good leader, unless you have inside information from multiple teammates and coaches and even then you may be reliant on how much they like or dislike that player. Leadership is usually the cop out analysts use when they can't explain what happen or more frequently simply to pat the star players on good teams on the back for something they may or may not possess.

I'm not saying he's MJ cause he's not but again judging guys on titles is silly, MJ was the best of his time because of his skills and on court dominance not because of his MVPs, finals MVPs and rings. So while I agree with your sentiment that MJ is better than Kobe you attack Kobe too much the guy is fantastic and is a damn good finisher even if statistically speaking he is not the best on game winners as their is alot more to closing then game winners as most games don't come down to the last shot.

 

[Hendu0520]

Agreed the last shot is not everything. But when people say he is a good closer they never have an example of why he is the best. I can list some stats that prove that he is not hands down the best, maybe I would take Wade over him maybe you wouldn't but it is debatable. I hate when Mike and Mike or Wilbon or these ESPN guys get on and just assume he is the best without ever backing it up. Give me a game or an example of him leading his team to a big victory? The last team to come back from 3-1 was Phoenix against Kobe's Lakers. Would Jordan, Lebron or Wade ever relinquish a 3-1 lead ever? Prob, not, and Wade led his team back from down 2-0 and did win mutiple games in that finals for the Heat. Kobe has never done anything close to that. He does great in February, when he had his 81 point game and his streak of 40 point games. He actually gets worse in crunch time where as most great plyers get better.

 

[Hendu0520]

And yes when you get up to being compared with the greatest players of all time rings and mvp's and awards do come in to play. All of which Kobe is behind most of the greatest. Lets compare him to Bird and Magic before we jump up to Jordan cause he isn't even close to them.

 

[dougthonus]

Kobe's clearly a great closer.

I don't think there's any arguing that. I don't think that means he hits the most game winners though. Many games are closed in the final three minutes prior to getting close enough for a game winner.

Is he the best closer in the league right now? I fear LeBron more than Kobe, but Kobe's cast is so much better that I'd fear the Lakers much moreso than the Cavs.

 

[MADman24]

Hendu0520 wrote:

And yes when you get up to being compared with the greatest players of all time rings and mvp's and awards do come in to play. All of which Kobe is behind most of the greatest. Lets compare him to Bird and Magic before we jump up to Jordan cause he isn't even close to them.

I don't care to compare eras I have really only done it once, in this forum on the topic, but I simply don't care who people think are the best of all time because it is impossible to fairly compare eras. However I understand why people compare him to Jordan, 1st of all both he is and Jordan are SGs so it is an easier comparison to make as opposed to Magic or Bird. Secondly he is coached by Phil Jackson. Lastly and most important he has clearly modeled his game after him and even his of court behavior rings of Jordan. It is really a natural comparison even if you think the edge goes to MJ or think it's a one-sided discussion.

 

[Hendu0520]

dougthonus wrote:

Kobe's clearly a great closer.

I don't think there's any arguing that. I don't think that means he hits the most game winners though. Many games are closed in the final three minutes prior to getting close enough for a game winner.

Is he the best closer in the league right now? I fear LeBron more than Kobe, but Kobe's cast is so much better that I'd fear the Lakers much moreso than the Cavs.

Ok I just gave you the last 4:48 of the game. Not just the final shot. The same thing happened in Games 2 and 3. So I am not just talking about the final shot. He messes up the final 3 minutes all of the time.

And maybe he is a solid closer but why is there no arguing, please I just want someone to give me an example. How about I give you guys one to start. Game 3 I think of the '04 Finals against Detroit he played very well down the stretch and hit a game winning three. But if we remember that series was the last games of the Shaq and Kobe era and the reason that team almost got swept in the Finals was because Kobe was going for the Finals MVP and trying to take the team from Shaq. So he was the reason they were down in the first place so that great game didn't help his team much.

Also I am just saying that I can't stand when people make the statement like Magic Johnson says "we are watching the greatest closer in the game right now". Please media stop saying that. I am not saying Kobe is horrible just giving examples of why no one on Earth should ever have that statement come out of their mouth, especially people who get payed to give us detailed analysis.

 

[Hendu0520]

MADman24 wrote:

Hendu0520 wrote:

And yes when you get up to being compared with the greatest players of all time rings and mvp's and awards do come in to play. All of which Kobe is behind most of the greatest. Lets compare him to Bird and Magic before we jump up to Jordan cause he isn't even close to them.

I don't care to compare eras I have really only done it once, in this forum on the topic, but I simply don't care who people think are the best of all time because it is impossible to fairly compare eras. However I understand why people compare him to Jordan, 1st of all both he is and Jordan are SGs so it is an easier comparison to make as opposed to Magic or Bird. Secondly he is coached by Phil Jackson. Lastly and most important he has clearly modeled his game after him and even his of court behavior rings of Jordan. It is really a natural comparison even if you think the edge goes to MJ or think it's a one-sided discussion.

True I agree with you Madman they are easy to compare, and to add to your point in history Kobe is probably the 2nd best 2guard of all time (Wade could pass him but not yet). The SG is the weakest position in history. Who else is there? Allen Iverson, Clyde Drexler, Mitch Richmond? Kobe is better than all of them.

 

[MADman24]

Hendu0520 wrote:

And maybe he is a solid closer but why is there no arguing, please I just want someone to give me an example. How about I give you guys one to start.

Also I am just saying that I can't stand when people make the statement like Magic Johnson says "we are watching the greatest closer in the game right now". Please media stop saying that. I am not saying Kobe is horrible just giving examples of why no one on Earth should ever have that statement come out of their mouth, especially people who get payed to give us detailed analysis.

I'm not arguing that he is the best because I don't think he is, I think LeBron is but I can't actually justify that with anything other than saying he is the best overall player and games I've watched them both play. 82games has a clutch stat and that could help strengthen my argument but Kobe ranks highly in that stat as well, they traded places from 1st and 2nd from this year to last. I think this is one of those things open to debate.

As far as Magic and Wilbon I think you are forgetting those people getting paid to give analysis are not getting paid to give detailed analysis first off because many of them probably aren't willing to do it or don't care for it and secondly because they are more for the average fan more so than let's just say most of the people on this board. I've yet to see the NBA equivalent of Ron Jaworski on tv breaking down film in depth and I don't think that day is coming anytime soon.

True I agree with you Madman they are easy to compare, and to add to your point in history Kobe is probably the 2nd best 2guard of all time (Wade could pass him but not yet). The SG is the weakest position in history. Who else is there? Allen Iverson, Clyde Drexler, Mitch Richmond? Kobe is better than all of them.

Jerry West, Oscar Robertson also played 2guard as well as point, Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, George Gervin are probably the other elites but really the list is rather short as far as people who can be considered in the same league as MJ and Kobe but then again any list gets awfully short under those circumstances.

 

[houheffna]

Ok Friday June 12, on PTI Wilbon pointed to Kobe Bryant's pass to Derrick Fisher and referred to Kobe as the greatest closer in the game. What? Yes he is great but there is no way that he is the greatest closer in the game. And was Wilbon watching Game 4? Did he notice that if Howard hits a FT then Kobe would have been the choker in 2 consecutive games down the stretch.

According to 82Games.com He is 4th on the list of game winners since 03-04.
Lebron, Vince Carter, Ray Allen are all ahead of him. His percentage is 25% on game winners and the league average is 30%. All the players in the top 50 have a better percentage than him. Wow that is amazing to me to see. Also in another forum someone pointed out to me that the Lakers are worse than the Bulls in fourth quarter scoring but yet they are going to be the Champions? That is also a reflection of their best player.

You are looking at stats WAY too much. Ray Allen? Vince Carter? Seriously. Kobe is the best in the clutch not only according to Wilbon, but according to The Logo himself. I wouldn't think twice about asking Lebron (you consider him clutch? Cause I remember a lot of shots and freethrows that guy missed...) to pass the ball to Kobe.

Another thing, until Carter, Allen and Lebron can do it on the grandest stage like Kobe did it, not a home game against Milwaukee, but a game against the Blazers in the WCF with Shaq on the bench...then we can talk about that. But no way I take anyone over Kobe.

Once again, I quote Vin Scully: "Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lamppost: for support, not illumination."

(Hendu, I do not think you are a drunk, just so you know. I respectfully disagree is all)

And I still feel that Kobe is the only player who can emulate Jordan on the basketball court. Athletically, Kobe can do just about everything Jordan could do on the basketball court.

 

[Hendu0520]

houheffna wrote:

Ok Friday June 12, on PTI Wilbon pointed to Kobe Bryant's pass to Derrick Fisher and referred to Kobe as the greatest closer in the game. What? Yes he is great but there is no way that he is the greatest closer in the game. And was Wilbon watching Game 4? Did he notice that if Howard hits a FT then Kobe would have been the choker in 2 consecutive games down the stretch.

According to 82Games.com He is 4th on the list of game winners since 03-04.
Lebron, Vince Carter, Ray Allen are all ahead of him. His percentage is 25% on game winners and the league average is 30%. All the players in the top 50 have a better percentage than him. Wow that is amazing to me to see. Also in another forum someone pointed out to me that the Lakers are worse than the Bulls in fourth quarter scoring but yet they are going to be the Champions? That is also a reflection of their best player.

You are looking at stats WAY too much. Ray Allen? Vince Carter? Seriously. Kobe is the best in the clutch not only according to Wilbon, but according to The Logo himself. I wouldn't think twice about asking Lebron (you consider him clutch? Cause I remember a lot of shots and freethrows that guy missed...) to pass the ball to Kobe.

Another thing, until Carter, Allen and Lebron can do it on the grandest stage like Kobe did it, not a home game against Milwaukee, but a game against the Blazers in the WCF with Shaq on the bench...then we can talk about that. But no way I take anyone over Kobe.

Once again, I quote Vin Scully: "Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lamppost: for support, not illumination."

And I still feel that Kobe is the only player who can emulate Jordan on the basketball court. Athletically, Kobe can do just about everything Jordan could do on the basketball court.

Ok I agree, but when did I say that Carter and Allen are better than Kobe? I just was giving examples of why it is arguable that he is not the best closer. I am not using stats way too much I gave you a few that are bolstering my observations of the game which I also wrote down for you.

I agree that Kobe is a great athlete and a great player, but I have a problem when people just say he is the best right now and don't back it up. You are using an example from 2000 when Shaq was the leader of the team and Kobe averaged 15 ppg against the 76ers in the finals and I don't even think he averaged 20ppg in those playoffs, next example please. And if Portland didn't just collapse in Game 7 they don't win that one either. Lebron has led a terrible team to the Finals and to the Eastern Conference Finals yearly, and clearly does not have the help that Kobe does. If you trade Kobe and Lebron straight up it's not even close the Lakers probably sweep through the playoffs and the Finals. Wade has led his team and don't tell me he didn't, Kobe hasn't come close to the level of winning in big games like the 4 straight and being down in game 3 in the 4th as the Heat were. Please if you can give me an example of what Wade did then I will say Kobe is the best, but he doesn't instead he has series like this one, where despite his good, but inflated stats he is not playing very well down the stretch at all.

 

[Hendu0520]

Yes CHARLES BARKELY IS THE MAN! He just said on NBA TV he didn't put Kobe in the top 10 of all time and when they broke it down Kenny put him at 10. That's about right arguably 10, but Kenny put him over Hakeem Olajuwon and Charles went crazy, now that's an interesting argument Kobe or Olajuwon? I go with the Dream, but you all knew I would say that, lol. Or how about Barkley vs Kobe? That's a tough one, Barkley never really had a lot of help and he had Mr. Jordan winning all of those titles.

OH but they too think he is the best closer, darn it maybe I am crazy but they still didn't give any examples.

 

[??? ??????]

Kobe Bryant wasn't so great of a closer a few years ago...

Being a great closer is largely a function of your teammates. I think Ben Gordon is an example. This guy has hit as many big shots as anyone in the league, but so many of them have ended up being meaningless because of his crappy teammates.

Boston, Game 5 is a great example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNpg7PF5oPs

We should have been heralding Ben Gordon for hitting the game winner in Game 5, instead we are talking about how Rondo got away with murdering Brad Miller's face.

One of Ben Gordon's limitations on the court is his teammates. His teammates are all crappy defenders (save Hinrich and Deng), and almost never get that stop on the other end, which limits his ability to be the hero.

Compare that to 04-05 and 06-07, where when Gordon hit the big shot, his teammates would get the big stop, making his shots with still time remaining on the clock being the effective game winners (followed by the foul game). Or when the Bulls were tied with another team, or slightly down, his teammates would get the stop, allowing him to be the hero.

If you want to be a great closer, you need a good defenders around you that will get the stop so you can be the hero.

 

[houheffna]

Ben Gordon has had some of the monumental mishaps in the history of "clutch" basketball. Where he will not pass the ball even when double, triple teamed.

I don't know what to say to you about Kobe that hasn't been said. You call that Lakers game 7 a Portland collapse, but you won't recognize that Detroit practically gave up in the conference finals to an inferior team? Kobe has played in a much tougher conference against tougher opponents over the last 10 years. He averaged under 20ppg his first 3 years in the postseason and averaged over ever since. He is a 25ppg guy for his career in the playoffs. Having him #10 all time is about right. I have said consistently that he is the second best SG in the history of the game. I love Olajuwon too, my second favorite team is the Rockets, hell, my name is Houston!

Lebron has had a few moments in the clutch, but he is not Mr. Clutch all of a sudden, I would still rather have Kobe. And according to stats guess who is a more efficient scorer in the fourth quarter than Gordon? Derrick Rose...and Danny Granger is second best in the league! You would rather have Granger shoot than Kobe?

 

[houheffna]

One of Ben Gordon's limitations on the court is his teammates. His teammates are all crappy defenders (save Hinrich and Deng), and almost never get that stop on the other end, which limits his ability to be the hero.

Wow, so Gordon's crappy teammates are holding him back now? Where does Gordon stack up defensively, is he one of those crappy defenders? Bryant is a damn good defender, so was Jordan.