Ross vs Counsell

[Szlachcic]

Trying to figure out what Hoyer see in Counsell to just dump Ross and pay BIG contract to current manager .
Under Counsell I don't see an improvement in the club performance, in fact it gotten worse. The hitting and the defense regressed. I'm I missing something?

 

[knoxville7]

thats 100% correct. literally nothing counsell is doing seems any different/better than what Ross was doing for a fraction of the cost. I tried telling CCS this was going to be the case when they fired Ross and hired Counsell.

 

[Discus fish salesman]

Also, a big issue with Ross was bringing up young guys and not playing them. Counsell might be worse with this

 

[Diehardfan]

Regardless of who the manager is....it's all on Hoyer. In today's MLB, failing to address a bullpen that was horrid last year is just a total clusterfuck. Say what you want about this "great" minor league system he built, until a few guys actually step up and fill a few slots....it's just another **** up. Funny how the Brewers bring up guys and they actually can play while the "great" Cub farm players spend years in development.

 

[knoxville7]

Regardless of who the manager is....it's all on Hoyer. In today's MLB, failing to address a bullpen that was horrid last year is just a total clusterfuck. Say what you want about this "great" minor league system he built, until a few guys actually step up and fill a few slots....it's just another **** up. Funny how the Brewers bring up guys and they actually can play while the "great" Cub farm players spend years in development.

The failure was not acquiring an end of game reliever(no Nerris doesn’t count lol) to help slot everyone else accordingly.

The Merriweather injury hurt a lot, but that’s also on Hoyer for allowing for an injury to derail the entire bullpen

Hoyer also gets a knock for not being aggressive enough in finding another bat to add to last years lineup. The offense is so bad

 

[Diehardfan]

The failure was not acquiring an end of game reliever(no Nerris doesn’t count lol) to help slot everyone else accordingly.

The Merriweather injury hurt a lot, but that’s also on Hoyer for allowing for an injury to derail the entire bullpen

Hoyer also gets a knock for not being aggressive enough in finding another bat to add to last years lineup. The offense is so bad

LOL, I was glad as hell when he got Neris. At least he was doing something....but not as a closer. I was thinking maybe 7-8th inning guy. Just shows how shit this bullpen is.

It's like he didn't bother watching how playoff games were won last year.

 

[Bust]

Trying to figure out what Hoyer see in Counsell to just dump Ross and pay BIG contract to current manager .
Under Counsell I don't see an improvement in the club performance, in fact it gotten worse. The hitting and the defense regressed. I'm I missing something?

The first team meeting was hilarious! Counsell first time in front of the team "This is Cool, this is really cool . . . that's all" LOL!!

VS

“In this room,” Ross said, “14 first-rounders, 10 Gold Gloves, 10 All-Stars, 10 World Series champions, three Silver Sluggers, two Rookies of the Year, an ERA title, an All-Star Game MVP, an NLCS MVP and a standalone MVP. But that don’t mean shit coming into this season.”

David Ross’ pump-up speech to a Cubs team that already believes (and the doubters)

The Cubs showed a blueprint for success this season, with an Opening Day win featuring strong pitching, timely hitting and sharp defense.

www.nytimes.com

 

[CSF77]

The failure was not acquiring an end of game reliever(no Nerris doesn’t count lol) to help slot everyone else accordingly.

The Merriweather injury hurt a lot, but that’s also on Hoyer for allowing for an injury to derail the entire bullpen

Hoyer also gets a knock for not being aggressive enough in finding another bat to add to last years lineup. The offense is so bad

Jed can always trade for a closer. 2016 had the the same situation. Mason Miller for Alcantara, Triantos and Drew Gray.

 

[TL1961]

Also, a big issue with Ross was bringing up young guys and not playing them. Counsell might be worse with this

Counsell has Morel starting at third. Ross had Wisdom. Then Madrigal.

Counsell has Busch starting at first. Ross had Mancini and Hosmer.

Counsell has played PCA some in the OF. Ross wouldn’t put a rookie in with a gun to his head.

Counsell has Brown and Wesneski contributing in starting rotation and bullpen.

How is Counsell worse at playing young guys?

Do you even consider the facts before criticizing?

 

[TL1961]

Jed can always trade for a closer. 2016 had the the same situation. Mason Miller for Alcantara, Triantos and Drew Gray.

Jesus, you like to pay a lot.

 

[Szlachcic]

The closer is needed NOW!

 

[CSF77]

Jesus, you like to pay a lot.

He is arguably the best closer in MLB with team control

That pay is not over.

 

[Discus fish salesman]

Counsell has Morel starting at third. Ross had Wisdom. Then Madrigal.

Counsell has Busch starting at first. Ross had Mancini and Hosmer.

Counsell has played PCA some in the OF. Ross wouldn’t put a rookie in with a gun to his head.

Counsell has Brown and Wesneski contributing in starting rotation and bullpen.

How is Counsell worse at playing young guys?

Do you even consider the facts before criticizing?

We have no idea if Ross would've played Busch (he almost certainly would have).

Morel sucks and was also playing most of the time in some slot with Ross, he certainly shouldn't be at 3rd everyday because his defense is abysmal.

PCA should be playing everyday if he's up considering he's a top 30 prospect and he was being used like a back up.

The young pitchers were clearly going to play a role this year as going into last year they were somewhat viewed as probably a year away (Wicks, brown). Wesneski was used some last year and struggled. Assad was also used.

Feel free to have your opinions though without being an arrogant prick.

 

[CSF77]

The closer is needed NOW!

Wicks pitched last night and will need one more game. With a forearm strain that could lead to TJS so that is why they shut him down and are doing a slow build up.

With Brown tossing a 7 inning no hitter it allows Wicks to go into lower impact middle relief.

Add to it Horton will be forcing a rotation spot.

I have felt that they should be doing a 6 man rotation for a while now. What this does is basically takes the 100 pitch counts and gives opertunity to get that extra inning with out freaking out on burning a arm.

This extra inning takes away from the tweener crowd.

In other words. Say they decide to move Hayden into the rotation. Then up the pitch max to 120. This gets most starts 6-8 inning range. This will in general require 1-3 pen arms. Even then they could put Wicks in if they need a 2 inning stint.

Now on a legit closer. They don't have one. The closest guy in the system is Daniel Palencia. He lacks a strike out pitch but hits 101 frequently.

Give him a fork or knuckle curve then we are talking a legit closer.

But that is not a real thing right now so trading for Miller would pay off and they might take Daniel in the deal as his top end is at that level and they are not on a win now scenario.

 

[CSF77]

We have no idea if Ross would've played Busch (he almost certainly would have).

Morel sucks and was also playing most of the time in some slot with Ross, he certainly shouldn't be at 3rd everyday because his defense is abysmal.

PCA should be playing everyday if he's up considering he's a top 30 prospect and he was being used like a back up.

The young pitchers were clearly going to play a role this year as going into last year they were somewhat viewed as probably a year away (Wicks, brown). Wesneski was used some last year and struggled. Assad was also used.

Feel free to have your opinions though without being an arrogant prick.

Mmm we don't know if Jed makes that deal if Ross was still managing.

I see it as

Ross: vets coach and gets along with the vets better. He would be a strong manager in Phi or LAD or SD where they have an established core that he can just lead

Craig: is still a first year with this team and there is a trust in the system's talent going on. They are expected to win now so I get leaning on the vets. His lacking is not filtering in opertunity. I am being a bit picky here as.Luis Vazquez should be in the rotation.

Morel tbh has struggled this year. Bad luck and adapting to 3B. The talent is there. His strike zone management is actually pretty good

So you add a bit of luck. BABIP is below MLB avg by a large margine. Things tend to avg out over a full season. He gets hot again the dynamic changes. MLB pitchers just walk him when he is lit. Getting them to pitch to him takes a guy behind him that you would rather avoid also.

 

[Diehardfan]

Mason Miller.....LOLOLOL Just shows you just how pathetic "Jed" is....I brought Miller up over a year ago. The first time I saw him. Probably could have gotten him on the cheap back then but good old "Jed" had his head up his ass and if he wants him now, it will cost him. Fucking fans are more knowledgeable.

• Diehardfan
• Apr 20, 2023
• Cubs vs. A's

Mason Miller. 24 yr old righty who throws in the 100s with great regularity and comes with a decent curve as well. Now running him out there every few days for 100 pitches will burn up that arm in no time...but bringing him in late in games could make for a long, financially fruitful career. The A's are in a rebuild, I wonder what they'd want for him.

 

[CSF77]

I didn't know much about him until Steele had him on his podcast. Great story having type 1 Diabetes and not figuring it out until 18. Got on insulin and became superman. So I really liked him and his mindset to the game. That is behind the scenes stuff but you really want to bring in team players that are good. Those guys are worth long term investments.

I don't get wrapped up in too much or too little prospect cost. If you get a top end player at his role and you get control then you pay. You don't go in looking to be cheap. That is for losers. Not when said player stabilizes your pen.

 

[TL1961]

We have no idea if Ross would've played Busch (he almost certainly would have).

Morel sucks and was also playing most of the time in some slot with Ross, he certainly shouldn't be at 3rd everyday because his defense is abysmal.

PCA should be playing everyday if he's up considering he's a top 30 prospect and he was being used like a back up.

The young pitchers were clearly going to play a role this year as going into last year they were somewhat viewed as probably a year away (Wicks, brown). Wesneski was used some last year and struggled. Assad was also used.

Feel free to have your opinions though without being an arrogant prick.

I asked a legitimate question which was brought about by your comments.

And you didn’t answer it.

Sorry if you think that’s being a prick.

You’re doing the fan thing of criticizing blindly because you don’t like the results.

You simultaneously defend Ross because he would have played Morel as much as Counsell does, and then say that Morel sucks and shouldn’t be playing. Interesting.

Morel unfortunately needs to play as the alternative is worse. And they rightly want to get him enough at bats to properly evaluate his potential. His HR power is real and his ceiling is higher than Wisdom or Madrigal by a mile. It’s rough now, but they’re smart not to play someone different every day.

 

[Discus fish salesman]

I asked a legitimate question which was brought about by your comments.

And you didn’t answer it.

Sorry if you think that’s being a prick.

You’re doing the fan thing of criticizing blindly because you don’t like the results.

You simultaneously defend Ross because he would have played Morel as much as Counsell does, and then say that Morel sucks and shouldn’t be playing. Interesting.

Morel unfortunately needs to play as the alternative is worse. And they rightly want to get him enough at bats to properly evaluate his potential. His HR power is real and his ceiling is higher than Wisdom or Madrigal by a mile. It’s rough now, but they’re smart not to play someone different every day.

I realize Morel has to play because they did nothing to address 3b again. Hoyer is who I blame for most of the cubs issues.

I actually like counsell and liked Ross. I just hate when guys like canario, pca, Vazquez come up and either barely see the field at all or aren't playing everyday (pca) as they should be. It's mismanagement of the resources. If they aren't going to be utilized, they should be in the minors playing everyday and getting developmental reps

 

[CSF77]

Poor decision on skipping Shota one cycle through the rotation. He was out of sorts out there. Then weight that with pulling Brown while a no hitter is intact.

Questionable stuff and I would lean towards too much caution going on.

I would have to rate him as a C so far. Just on some of his decisions. We have to remember that he had 3 high ended starters a top set up and closer in Milwaukee. Lacking that it tells another story.