Running With The Bulls Episode #114

Kush77

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Hey guys,
Finally put up another episode of RWTB. It's been a few weeks. It's up on the frontpage and iTunes.

I talk about Ben Gordon and the Detroit thing. Also bring up the debates I've been having with they guys about the 1983 Sixers and the 1999 Spurs.

If you guys want to reply to any of it you can email me (kush77@comcast.net) and I'll read it on the show or you can call-in at 815-315-0490 if you'd like. I'll play it on the next show.

I've been real bust so far this summer so I won't be doing another show until right before 4th of July weekend.

Thank you B)
 

engies

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downloaded now will listen soon

thanks!
 

clonetrooper264

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My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Cubs
  1. Chicago Bulls
  2. Golden State Warriors
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Chicago Blackhawks
Just listened to the show, it was great, as always. Pretty much agreed with everything you said on the show. Thanks.
 

houheffna

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Why is everybody thanking you, is your show orgasmic or something? Just kidding, I listened to it, you make a great argument and you are kind of convincing, wrong but convincing.

People have short memories, in 2007, who was considered the best player on the team by most? It was Deng, it wasn't Gordon. Deng was a better all-around player, that is why he go the extension. The whole "We signed Deng, why wouldn't we sign Gordon?" argument is too much, Deng was bad money, so now we should spend bad money on Gordon...makes no sense.

If Gordon has been the best player on the team for 5 years, then what was Skiles doing putting him on the bench? Because there are no all-stars on this team, and its not who starts, its who finishes.

Comparing this backcourt to Thomas and Dumars? Seriously? I didn't expect that from you. I will say it again, Dumars drunk and high on acid is better than Gordon on the basketball court. Cannot believe you would dare compare the two. Gordon is not on Dumars level. Thomas was the best little man ever in my opinion. DRose has a long way to go to get to that level.

Again, love Pippen, great player, that 76er team had 4 all-stars that year. That was a great, great team. Moses would have tied Rodman in knots. I guess you think Pippen shuts down Dr. J? Not only do the Bulls have problems with the 83 76ers, they have problems with the Celtics and Lakers from that era also. Here is a question for you, who guards Kareem? Arguably the greatest player ever, who guards him? If Pippen was a beast at that time...what about Bird in '86? Bird could shoot right over Pippen and outrebound Pippen also. Bird won 3 straight MVPs. Pippen was a better athlete, Bird was a better basketball player. McHale might have had the best post moves ever. What about James Worthy, he did something Pippen didn't, show up offensively in the clutch. Again these guys are legitimate Top 50 players and are not to be ignored. And of course the greatest PG ever in his prime, Magic Johnson. Would have been tough.

That is the way I feel

Otherwise, great show.

I drink juice, I don't drink Bulls kool aid...
 

Kush77

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houheffna wrote:
Comparing this backcourt to Thomas and Dumars? Seriously? I didn't expect that from you. I will say it again, Dumars drunk and high on acid is better than Gordon on the basketball court. Cannot believe you would dare compare the two. Gordon is not on Dumars level. Thomas was the best little man ever in my opinion. DRose has a long way to go to get to that level.

No. I used the Pistons' backcourt as an example that you can win with a small backcourt. Just like I used the 1996 Sonics as an example with Hersey Hawkins and Gary Payton.

Oh, and everyone is thanking me because I have the most polite audience in podcasting. :p
 

houheffna

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In my past posts, I said that you can have undersized guards under one condition, they have to GUARD people. You named two backcourts with Gary Payton and Joe Dumars, both all league defensive players. I guess we will leave them as is and hope Rose is the one who can play defense, because as I have said before...Gordon couldn't stop a paraplegic.

Again, great podcast though.
 

houheffna

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You won't change your mind, you are diehard....but watch Andrew Toney, he might remind you of someone...
 

??? ??????

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The 1983 Sixers don't really rank up there with the 1996 Bulls statistically.

Record: 1996 Bulls (72-10) > 1983 Sixers (65-17)
O-Rtg: 1996 Bulls (115.2) > 1983 Sixers (108.3)
D-Rtg: 1983 Sixers (100.9) > 1996 Bulls (101.8)
Point Differential: 1996 Bulls (14.3) > 1983 Sixers (7.4)
Simple Rating System: 1996 Bulls (11.80) > 1983 Sixers (7.53)
Pythagoreon: 1996 Bulls (70-12) > 1983 Sixers (60-22)

Playoff Records:

Bulls: 15-3
Sixers: 12-1 (first round bye)

I want to talk about the point differential right now. The Bulls in 1996 were just ridiculous. The 76ers, not so impressive. Just looking at this year's NBA we have:

Cleveland Cavs - 10
Boston Celtics - 8.2
Los Angeles Lakers - 8.1
Orlando Magic - 7.3

I just don't see how anyone can really say the 1983 Sixers are a better team than the 1996 Bulls. It's madness.
 

houheffna

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Sorry no reply to a bunch of stats, notice how Kush breaks down the matchups, thats basketball. I am not trying to process a bunch of stats...

And are you not the guy that said that Gordon was a better scorer than Carmelo last year...based on stats? Nope, can't do it...

Not saying that you don't make valid points at times, but when it comes to a bunch of stats, I am just not feeling it.

I will tell you what a friend told me, quit comparing different eras. I try to, but these conversations are a lot of fun. So I will plead the fif and ignore the stats.

Just asking, how do you pronounce your name, I started to ask if those were wingdings in your name but I don't want to appear disrespectful. I am just not familiar with those words.
 

TheStig

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houheffna wrote:
Sorry no reply to a bunch of stats, notice how Kush breaks down the matchups, thats basketball. I am not trying to process a bunch of stats...
And are you not the guy that said that Gordon was a better scorer than Carmelo last year...based on stats? Nope, can't do it...

Not saying that you don't make valid points at times, but when it comes to a bunch of stats, I am just not feeling it.

I will tell you what a friend told me, quit comparing different eras. I try to, but these conversations are a lot of fun. So I will plead the fif and ignore the stats.

Just asking, how do you pronounce your name, I started to ask if those were wingdings in your name but I don't want to appear disrespectful. I am just not familiar with those words.
No that was PO3 and he didn't say better, he said more efficient. Which BG is because Melo is more of a volume scorer.
 

Hendu0520

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Well Heff I do agree that the '83 76ers give a good series and they are a better team than any of the '80s Lakers and Celtics teams, for one year at least. But they still lose to the '96 Bulls.

The Bulls were 1st in D, 1st in O and only lost 2 times to a great team in the Finals but were never really challenged. Your roster is great down to 6 guys, after that there is a cliff. We could play all of our guys and remain just as deadly. Two other huge factors are the 3 point shooting, which in all fairness to the 76ers was not really part of the game like it is now, but if they were to play that's how the 76ers would play they don't know any other way, so that would be a huge weakness. The other thing is foul trouble for Moses. Jordan and Pippen got big men in foul trouble all of the time, that was their specialty, your backup was Clemon Johnson uh oh, that would be scary. If it went 6 or 7 they would tire Moses and Dr. J out to win the series.

The 76ers have arguably 2 huge ingredients that would give the Bulls trouble: Cheeks was a quick PG, although he didn't have a great oustide shot. And of course Moses was a big time Center who could score so that gives the Bulls problems as well. A third ingredient is Dr. J, he was there star guard/forward, who was fabulous. A big three like that and another 20ppg scorer in Toney (you keep comparing him to BG but Toney didn't shoot many 3ponters at all) and with a defensive Jones off the bench the 76ers were a great team. I was a little harsh on them in the other post because they didn't win 2 in a row, but when I got to thinking they match up better against the Bulls then the Lakers and Celtics.

Yes Scottie Pippen shuts down Bird and Magic. If you remember small, quick PG's and big Center's were the main problems for the Bulls. So slow Magic and slow Bird would not kill us like a Gary Payton did. They would be overwhelmed by the greatest perimeter defender of all time and Jordan there when he needs a break the 2nd greatest perimeter defender of all time.

Kareem by '83 was old, injured and had dropped to about 20ppg and 8rpg roughly, Magic was the team leader by then. I think you are forgetting that the 90's Bulls were built to slow big time centers, they played in one of the best Center's eras of all time. They had a 3 headed monster of 7 footers on both 3peat squads. The '96 team had 4, Longley, Wennington, Salley, Edwards, and they would even throw Dickie Simpkins in to foul Shaq and Ewing. Not to mention arguably the greatest power foward/big man one on one defender ever in Rodman. I think the Lakers give the Bulls more trouble because of Kareem and Magic but they handle Worthy, Wilkes, Nixon, just fine and later Byron Scott(he was like John Starks) and A.C Green are no problem as well.

As for the Celtics,
Dominique Wilkins used to kill the Celtics, yah he couldn't stop Bird but Wilkins would mostly outplay Bird he just had less help. Pippen was a better defender than Wilkins and Boston didn't have a quick PG. Tiny Archibald, Dennis Johnson were older, they weren't as quick as Gary Payton and Tim Hardaway who used to give the Bulls trouble. Parish wasn't a great low post scorer and they didn't have a PG that was gonna kill us. McHale was great but Rodman matches up perfectly with him, no worries there, I see Mchale doing his famous whining face a lot, ha. I think Kush pointed out in the other post that the Bulls averaged 113 in '86 against the C's. And even though they got swept, every game was close and Jordan's help was Orlando Woolridge, the '96 Bulls probably sweep the C's.
 

houheffna

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No that was PO3 and he didn't say better, he said more efficient. Which BG is because Melo is more of a volume scorer.

http://www.bullspodcasters.com/forums?func=view&catid=5&id=19045&limit=15&start=15


unless he has you on legal retainer....he said "better", YOU said "efficient". He said "better" and tried to use stats to prove it. Too much.


But what I say is madness?

I do have a witness online...

http://www.bizofbasketball.com/?option=com_content&view=article&id=325&Itemid=1
 

houheffna

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Well Heff I do agree that the '83 76ers give a good series and they are a better team than any of the '80s Lakers and Celtics teams, for one year at least. But they still lose to the '96 Bulls.

The Bulls were 1st in D, 1st in O and only lost 2 times to a great team in the Finals but were never really challenged. Your roster is great down to 6 guys, after that there is a cliff. We could play all of our guys and remain just as deadly. Two other huge factors are the 3 point shooting, which in all fairness to the 76ers was not really part of the game like it is now, but if they were to play that's how the 76ers would play they don't know any other way, so that would be a huge weakness. The other thing is foul trouble for Moses. Jordan and Pippen got big men in foul trouble all of the time, that was their specialty, your backup was Clemon Johnson uh oh, that would be scary. If it went 6 or 7 they would tire Moses and Dr. J out to win the series.

The 76ers have arguably 2 huge ingredients that would give the Bulls trouble: Cheeks was a quick PG, although he didn't have a great oustide shot. And of course Moses was a big time Center who could score so that gives the Bulls problems as well. A third ingredient is Dr. J, he was there star guard/forward, who was fabulous. A big three like that and another 20ppg scorer in Toney (you keep comparing him to BG but Toney didn't shoot many 3ponters at all) and with a defensive Jones off the bench the 76ers were a great team. I was a little harsh on them in the other post because they didn't win 2 in a row, but when I got to thinking they match up better against the Bulls then the Lakers and Celtics.

Yes Scottie Pippen shuts down Bird and Magic. If you remember small, quick PG's and big Center's were the main problems for the Bulls. So slow Magic and slow Bird would not kill us like a Gary Payton did. They would be overwhelmed by the greatest perimeter defender of all time and Jordan there when he needs a break the 2nd greatest perimeter defender of all time.

Kareem by '83 was old, injured and had dropped to about 20ppg and 8rpg roughly, Magic was the team leader by then. I think you are forgetting that the 90's Bulls were built to slow big time centers, they played in one of the best Center's eras of all time. They had a 3 headed monster of 7 footers on both 3peat squads. The '96 team had 4, Longley, Wennington, Salley, Edwards, and they would even throw Dickie Simpkins in to foul Shaq and Ewing. Not to mention arguably the greatest power foward/big man one on one defender ever in Rodman. I think the Lakers give the Bulls more trouble because of Kareem and Magic but they handle Worthy, Wilkes, Nixon, just fine and later Byron Scott(he was like John Starks) and A.C Green are no problem as well.

As for the Celtics,
Dominique Wilkins used to kill the Celtics, yah he couldn't stop Bird but Wilkins would mostly outplay Bird he just had less help. Pippen was a better defender than Wilkins and Boston didn't have a quick PG. Tiny Archibald, Dennis Johnson were older, they weren't as quick as Gary Payton and Tim Hardaway who used to give the Bulls trouble. Parish wasn't a great low post scorer and they didn't have a PG that was gonna kill us. McHale was great but Rodman matches up perfectly with him, no worries there, I see Mchale doing his famous whining face a lot, ha. I think Kush pointed out in the other post that the Bulls averaged 113 in '86 against the C's. And even though they got swept, every game was close and Jordan's help was Orlando Woolridge, the '96 Bulls probably sweep the C's.


I think you are a bit off with this. Who the heck shuts down, not contain, SHUTS DOWN, Magic and Bird. I was a Pippen fan, but he wasn't on their level. If he can shut them down, he must have been a better player. Also, those guys both were 2 or 3 inches taller than him. I don't think he shuts any of them down. That is too much homerism for me. Rodman couldn't stop McHale. Rodman is about 5 inches shorter than McHale, and McHale may have had the best post moves in NBA history. These are great players, all time greats, Rodman didn't make the list, and according to some on the list, Pippen shouldn't have been on it. No one debates the greatness of these guys. Bird and Magic were 3 times MVP each, most have them ranked top 5 all time. Bird would have given Pippen a rough go, believe that. Magic, greatest PG ever, rendered mute by Pippen....don't think so. We will have to disagree about that one.
 

??? ??????

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houheffna wrote:
No that was PO3 and he didn't say better, he said more efficient. Which BG is because Melo is more of a volume scorer.

http://www.bullspodcasters.com/forums?func=view&catid=5&id=19045&limit=15&start=15


unless he has you on legal retainer....he said "better", YOU said "efficient". He said "better" and tried to use stats to prove it. Too much.


But what I say is madness?

I do have a witness online...

http://www.bizofbasketball.com/?option=com_content&view=article&id=325&Itemid=1

Gordon was a better scorer last year. Carmelo Anthony's volume (2.1 PPG greater) isn't enough to make up for the efficiency trade off going from Gordon to Melo.

I don't care if Carmelo is a ten times more skilled offensive player. Gordon still did a better job of putting the ball in the hoop than Carmelo did.

And what does that say if Carmelo is a more talented, more skilled player than Gordon but not producing as good of offensive results?

Granted Carmelo was much better in the playoffs, but Gordon was great in the playoffs as well.
 

houheffna

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Dude, pull the plug, let it go. Your argument was futile and exhibited one of the finest examples for the total nullification of sports statistical analysis in the history of mankind.
 

Fred

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houheffna wrote:
You won't change your mind, you are diehard....but watch Andrew Toney, he might remind you of someone...

If Ben Gordon couldn't hit 3's at a 40%+ rate, he'd be very similar to Andrew Toney.
 

houheffna

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If Ben Gordon couldn't hit 3's at a 40%+ rate, he'd be very similar to Andrew Toney.

Yeah, same with Michael Jordan...if he had hit 40% of his shots, he would have been Gordon too. I am being very sarcastic.


If Andrew Toney was the starting SG for the Chicago Bulls, the Bulls win that game 7 against Boston.

1982 Eastern Conference Finals vs. Boston was one of the great clutch performances in NBA history.
 

TheStig

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??? ?????? wrote:
houheffna wrote:
No that was PO3 and he didn't say better, he said more efficient. Which BG is because Melo is more of a volume scorer.

http://www.bullspodcasters.com/forums?func=view&catid=5&id=19045&limit=15&start=15


unless he has you on legal retainer....he said "better", YOU said "efficient". He said "better" and tried to use stats to prove it. Too much.


But what I say is madness?

I do have a witness online...

http://www.bizofbasketball.com/?option=com_content&view=article&id=325&Itemid=1

Gordon was a better scorer last year. Carmelo Anthony's volume (2.1 PPG greater) isn't enough to make up for the efficiency trade off going from Gordon to Melo.

I don't care if Carmelo is a ten times more skilled offensive player. Gordon still did a better job of putting the ball in the hoop than Carmelo did.

And what does that say if Carmelo is a more talented, more skilled player than Gordon but not producing as good of offensive results?

Granted Carmelo was much better in the playoffs, but Gordon was great in the playoffs as well.
How can BG be the better offensive player if the only advantage he has is scoring efficiency? Wouldn't that just make him the more efficient scorer?
 

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