Sticky substances and how it pertains to the cubs the past few years

[beckdawg]

So something I was thinking about is I find it hard to believe that the cubs were greatly using this like other teams. I have always felt as though Theo was a very much "play the game the right way" type guy. And granted the cubs pitching has been markedly worse compared to other teams over that period. So, makes you wonder if the cubs weren't as bad at developing they just weren't getting the advantage other teams/players were. And this also sorta goes back to sign stealing and that whole fiasco. There's been no indication that the cubs were doing that to a cheesy level that other clubs were.

All this leads me to wonder if the effectively cheating teams cost this core a dynasty. There's already stuff coming out about Burnes having used sticky stuff. And there was a lot of drama about Yelich at home who hasn't been the same player post sign stealing stuff. Wainwright has already been accused as someone who's tried to get foreign substances from the angel's guy who was making it for people.

If you think about things... the cubs post 2016 really weren't that far off a lot of the years. And the impact some of that stuff has had makes you wonder if things were a level playing field if the cubs would more realistically have contended.

 

[knoxville7]

Yeah, I’m sure no cubs pitchers would ever do such a thing

 

[beckdawg]

Yeah, I’m sure no cubs pitchers would ever do such a thing

I mean if you have evidence of increased spin rates I'd love to see it. I'm not saying there's 0 chance that some cubs pitchers have but that's just not the type of pitchers the cubs have had. Like are we really thinking Hendricks cares about spin rate? They had Q who wasn't that type of pitcher. Lester wasn't that type of pitcher....etc

 

[CSF77]

I mean if you have evidence of increased spin rates I'd love to see it. I'm not saying there's 0 chance that some cubs pitchers have but that's just not the type of pitchers the cubs have had. Like are we really thinking Hendricks cares about spin rate? They had Q who wasn't that type of pitcher. Lester wasn't that type of pitcher....etc

Chatwood would have needed to to throw a strike. If he was using it he was doing it wrong.
Hendricks needs lower spin rates to get movement. Grip goes against that.
Lester was tossing lollypops by the end.
Q was injured for the most part and before that if he was it didn't do much for him.
Darvish is the only guy that could have because he would do crazy stuff with the baseball and threw 11 different pitches.

So it is a maybe on him. Jake lost velocity after 2016. I could see a guy like him going to it to get back to what he was. But with his results over the last few years highly doubtful.
Davies like Kyle needs lower spin for pitch movement.


So overall the Cubs have not had the type of pitcher that need higher spin rates. Guys that live off of the 4 seem and hard breaking stuff. Yu would have been the only guy that could have and the only way to know is if it comes out later on. The rest it works against them or it didn't do anything for them.

Even so. Yu had so much variety in pitches I doubt that he did. Add grip to a 4. Then have to remove it and add spit for a change then go back and reapply for a slider and then go to the rosin etc. That is way to obvious for a guy like him. It makes more sense for a power pitcher who needs spin rates on every offering to just apply in-between innings in the dugout away from cameras. Let it wear off naturally.

The guys who should be using a grip added are the fielders. I believe it only falls to the pitchers on illegal substances. A fielder is not restricted so in theory they could have a substance on their hands to add grip for more accurate throws. Then the ball gets removed from play. This was Bauer's argument on this. Only the pitchers are restricted. A catcher can use it so the ball can get affected on throw backs. There is pine tar on bats for grip. And so on. Eventually you would have to ban everything. His view point was let it be used. Hitters will adjust back to it. Substance has been around for ever so this is nothing unique. It is just being policed right now.

 

[knoxville7]

Sooo if you suck, you’re absolved of any potential accusations. Just like during the steroid era, there were guys using but whomst still sucked ass so they didn’t get run through the mud or accused

 

[Diehardfan]

Sooo if you suck, you’re absolved of any potential accusations. Just like during the steroid era, there were guys using but whomst still sucked ass so they didn’t get run through the mud or accused

Cheating is cheating. You can include pitch framing into the mix as well. The funny part of it is.....most baseball fans either don't know of it or even care. I've read where other than Darvish, the Cubs didn't have many high spin pitchers. Well, maybe not but it still seems a bit strange that a bunch of 30ish pitchers suddenly become one of the best bullpens in MLB.


If MLB keeps turning a blind eye to this, they might as well cut a deal with Vince McMahon.

 

[CSF77]

Sooo if you suck, you’re absolved of any potential accusations. Just like during the steroid era, there were guys using but whomst still sucked ass so they didn’t get run through the mud or accused

Spit balls, Vaseline, greenies, roids, grip adds and every other cheat invented.

This is not new. It is just another attempt to get a edge. But cheating has happened since the begining. You could say that the new tech used in pitching labs and the science of training athletic players is cheating because that was not around 100 years ago.

It is all bullshit.

MLB wants more runs in games. They lower the mound. Look over greenies. Look over roids. But now they act because pitchers have it good?

Like I said it is bull-la-shit. There is no honestly in the game. It is about generating excitement. That brings the fans in. 1998 was great for the game. Until narc boy decided to go viral because he didn't matter anymore and went narcissist.

 

[CSF77]

And remember. Tommy John surgery happened after the lowering of the mound. Injuries spiked on pitchers. Starters stopped going deep into games and teams adjusted by stockpiling bullpens.

You could say the choice to lower the mound cost unnecessary injuries just to score more runs.

It is all about point of view. Some things are ignored and others the pichforks come out. End of the day nothing has much integrity.

 

[CSF77]

And it begins

Rays Ace Tyler Glasnow Has a Partially Torn UCL, Blames MLB's Foreign Substance Enforcement Plans - Bleacher Nation

Maybe it's an unreasonable complaint, or maybe he's right, especially when it comes to sunscreen and rosin.

www.bleachernation.com

 

[beckdawg]

Sooo if you suck, you’re absolved of any potential accusations. Just like during the steroid era, there were guys using but whomst still sucked ass so they didn’t get run through the mud or accused

I mean feel like people should be given the benefit of the doubt unless there's evidence to support the claim. Also feel like we need to distinguish between sunscreen/rosen and the newer forms of it. I think it's probably more likely you could make the claim that cubs used the former but the latter seems highly unlikely to me.

Regardless, I think the biggest indicator should probably be whether or not players got markedly better when they came to the cubs because that's usually an indicator of something fishy. You look at Cole with the Pirates and after he was traded they are two different players. And as this pertains the cubs, I mean other than the bullpen this exact year have the cubs had anyone even close to like that?

 

[knoxville7]

I mean feel like people should be given the benefit of the doubt unless there's evidence to support the claim. Also feel like we need to distinguish between sunscreen/rosen and the newer forms of it. I think it's probably more likely you could make the claim that cubs used the former but the latter seems highly unlikely to me.

Regardless, I think the biggest indicator should probably be whether or not players got markedly better when they came to the cubs because that's usually an indicator of something fishy. You look at Cole with the Pirates and after he was traded they are two different players. And as this pertains the cubs, I mean other than the bullpen this exact year have the cubs had anyone even close to like that?

off the top of my head, Arrieta comes to mind. It’s been 6 or 7 years now, but when he and strop came over they were traded to us because Baltimore was giving up on them basically. I’m sure there’s been others as well.

 

[beckdawg]

off the top of my head, Arrieta comes to mind. It’s been 6 or 7 years now, but when he and strop came over they were traded to us because Baltimore was giving up on them basically. I’m sure there’s been others as well.

Arrieta had a 8.56 k/9 the year prior to the trade in baltimore. 2015(his best year with the cubs) he was only at 9.28 which isn't really that big of a jump. The difference from Arrieta wasn't stuff it was control. He routinely was over 4 bb/9 in Baltimore. Strop is almost an identical case only he had even worse control. He was upper 8's in k/9 but had bb/9 over 5.

That's not even remotely the same as Cole who was a 8.69 k/9 and 2.44 bb/9 pitcher in Pitt and then the next year was a 12.40 k/9 pitcher and 2.88 bb/9. In both cases for Strop and Arrieta, their k rate improved but it improved largely because they stopped walking people at a high rate. Cole's walk rate actually got worse and his k rate still went up.

 

[CSF77]

The issue is a increase in spin rates. That is what they are targeting. Cole and Verlander both increased after going to Houston. So you can assume with Houston's cheating atmosphere illegal substance was just another cheat for them.

I'm pretty sure the pitchers involved will not say anything.

 

[knoxville7]

Arrieta had a 8.56 k/9 the year prior to the trade in baltimore. 2015(his best year with the cubs) he was only at 9.28 which isn't really that big of a jump. The difference from Arrieta wasn't stuff it was control. He routinely was over 4 bb/9 in Baltimore. Strop is almost an identical case only he had even worse control. He was upper 8's in k/9 but had bb/9 over 5.

That's not even remotely the same as Cole who was a 8.69 k/9 and 2.44 bb/9 pitcher in Pitt and then the next year was a 12.40 k/9 pitcher and 2.88 bb/9. In both cases for Strop and Arrieta, their k rate improved but it improved largely because they stopped walking people at a high rate. Cole's walk rate actually got worse and his k rate still went up.

steroids didn’t help guys hit a homerun, it helped the ball travel slightly farther when contact was made. Guys still had to barrel up the ball. So jumping almost a full strikeout per 9 is a decent size jump. And you’re right, control was a bigger issue for Arrieta and if I recall he moved his starting spot on the rubber. But also, what would help a pitcher gain control? Perhaps a better grip?

for the record, I’m not accusing Jake or anyone else of anything. Just playing devils advocate and pointing out we have had guys who suddenly became all stars after being casted off from other teams

 

[CSF77]

steroids didn’t help guys hit a homerun, it helped the ball travel slightly farther when contact was made. Guys still had to barrel up the ball. So jumping almost a full strikeout per 9 is a decent size jump. And you’re right, control was a bigger issue for Arrieta and if I recall he moved his starting spot on the rubber. But also, what would help a pitcher gain control? Perhaps a better grip?

for the record, I’m not accusing Jake or anyone else of anything. Just playing devils advocate and pointing out we have had guys who suddenly became all stars after being casted off from other teams

Jake was banned from using the cutter by Balt. He added it back through the Cubs.

The cutter issue is a pitcher who uses it grips the ball at a slight angle to get the break. A 4 the pitcher has to be behind the ball. So that can be the issue with pitchers losing velocity as they are not positioning their hand on the 4. That is why some lose velocity.

In Jake's case he was a late bloom and had a short peak. Velocity dropped so he changed his pitching delivery to hide the ball better because he lost 3 MPH. Now he has gone to a sinker vs a 4 seam.

So I would guess it is just age. His peak was shorter and now he is on decline.

 

[CSF77]

But regarding Jake. He could be good still. He needs to master a change up. I would add the cutter back.

So sinker breaks right.
Cutter breaks left.
Change breaks like sinker.
Slider breaks heavier than cutter.

So he would have 2 pitchs that break each way.

Then the hammer would be for resetting a sequence. Throw the hitter off guard.