The Bulls MO - same for the past 25 years

[houheffna]

I wish someone would tell me exactly what the Bulls have done that shows they are not trying to win a championship since 1998. Somebody give me an example. All this talk about resembling the Clippers and Reinsdorf not being serious about a championship, please tell me what could have been done differently. What player did they not pursue that would have helped them attain a championship? And pray tell, why would they sign Ben Wallace if they were not trying to win? Why?

 

[Newskoolbulls]

houheffna wrote:

I wish someone would tell me exactly what the Bulls have done that shows they are not trying to win a championship since 1998. Somebody give me an example. All this talk about resembling the Clippers and Reinsdorf not being serious about a championship, please tell me what could have been done differently. What player did they not pursue that would have helped them attain a championship? And pray tell, why would they sign Ben Wallace if they were not trying to win? Why?

The whole rebuilding after the dynasty was just an excuse to save money. Have a cheap product with very little payroll for years but knowing people will still come because we are a big city and people want to come see the banners etc. I am a JR guy but thats what happened.

 

[TheStig]

Shakes wrote:

The best way to make money is to win championships. JR is no chump, he knows that even Jordan can't be milked forever. The whole idea that JR is deliberately putting out a poor product because it'll make him more money is silly: this is the guy who knows first hand how much money you can rake in if you win the championship.

I don't think anyone is saying JR is deliberately trying to sabotage the team. JR however, makes most of his moves not for basketball reasons but for financial reasons. That and the fact that he feels he can get away with running this team like a small market club bothers me. We should be top 5 in payroll not just income.

 

[Shakes]

You don't win by spending money ... you win by spending money wisely. There's no point spending money just because you can, that road only leads to a Knicks style team.

Basically the proven way to win is to get a superstar and then surround them with the right pieces. We haven't had the superstar, so we'd be damn fools to spend big and lock ourselves in to the other pieces before we have that.

If Rose turns into a All-NBA first team sort of player and JR doesn't want to spend for a supporting cast then you can yell cheap.

 

[houheffna]

You don't win by spending money ... you win by spending money wisely. There's no point spending money just because you can, that road only leads to a Knicks style team.

Basically the proven way to win is to get a superstar and then surround them with the right pieces. We haven't had the superstar, so we'd be damn fools to spend big and lock ourselves in to the other pieces before we have that.

If Rose turns into a All-NBA first team sort of player and JR doesn't want to spend for a supporting cast then you can yell cheap.

What I don't understand is that not only should the team try to build around a superstar, they have to actually acquire one. Folks think the Bulls haven't tried. They did try, the banners were good for what? 2,3 years? I doubt seriously that Jerry Krause, who couldn't wait to build his own team, was going to build a team around banners and a statue. Its not a museum.

Whether its bad rep or bad communication skills, the Bulls sadly paraded every body they could in town to try to get them to sign. From TMac to Eddie Jones, Tim Thomas, Glen Rice and everybody else. Krause begin to act out of desperation so he signed Ron Mercer and Eddie Robinson because no one else would sign. That said, you want the team to dole out money for what? Besides a superstar, continuous spending bad money for mediocre players is not going to win a championship. This is a superstar league, I believe someone on here bought up "basketball hell" some of the people on this forum will have the Bulls end up in basketball hell if the Bulls listened to them.

why did he ?
yeah, i know, he loved SA.
but maybe if krause didn't have the reputation of being an asshole and reinsdorf didn't have a reputation of a cheap bastard who doesn't care about winning, duncan would have considered the bulls

Why would he leave a championship caliber team with a team offering him a max deal that no other team in the league can match to go to the Bulls? For what? He had already won a championship with the Spurs, he was the man, no need to leave town when you can win championships and get big bucks at home. No team was considered, because he loved where he was. That is how it works, but they did go after him.

 

[dunkside.com]

Shakes wrote:

The best way to make money is to win championships. JR is no chump, he knows that even Jordan can't be milked forever. The whole idea that JR is deliberately putting out a poor product because it'll make him more money is silly: this is the guy who knows first hand how much money you can rake in if you win the championship.

NEVER have I said that JR is deliberately putting a bad product on the floor. What I'm saying is that he is not willing to go the extra-mile and try to win a title. As long as the product is mediocre (a 1st round exit you'd have to agree is mediocre) the fans will keep coming to the arena which will put money in his pockets.

Financially he has absolutely no incentive to pay for a title. If it was a factory he was running, I'd agree with the idea that your product doesn't need to be top of the line, but just good enough so it sells and makes a profit for you. However he's running a basketball team, and sports were invented with the idea that you should compete to be the best, you should strive to defeat all others.

Running a team just for profit is an insult to the concept of sports.

houheffna wrote:

I wish someone would tell me exactly what the Bulls have done that shows they are not trying to win a championship since 1998. Somebody give me an example. All this talk about resembling the Clippers and Reinsdorf not being serious about a championship, please tell me what could have been done differently. What player did they not pursue that would have helped them attain a championship? And pray tell, why would they sign Ben Wallace if they were not trying to win? Why?

You've been telling me stories about how and why trade talks failed. I'll give you some facts:

- Elton Brand for a draft pick (Brand was already a 20-10 guy in just his 2nd year, yet he was traded away. Weak ass players like Hinrich and Deng were kept and paid - overpaid, that is)
- Chandler traded for PJ's corpse and his expiring contract
- PJ's expiring not used in a trade for someone that could help. And assuming that there was no trade available, they could have swapped him for Kurt Thomas' contract, which would have given them an expiring for next season to try and trade
- Gordon allowed to walk instead of at least trying to get a S&T and get something in return
- Jamal Crawford dealt away for basically nothing

PS:
1) I don't hate JR - I despise him. Sports is about winning, not profits.
2) Now I can buy all the books I want, so no thanks, I don't need aid packages.
3) I think I know far more about the US, capitalism and even racism in the US than you know about any issue outside of the US.

Shakes wrote:

You don't win by spending money ... you win by spending money wisely. There's no point spending money just because you can, that road only leads to a Knicks style team.

TRUE.

But you don't win by NOT spending money either.

And there are 2 things:

1) Bulls rarely spend money. More often they trade away players for picks and expirings (Brand, Chandler, Crawford, Curry - yeah, I wouldn't have kept the last 2, but that's not the point)

2) When they do, they overpay mediocre players: Hinrich, Deng, Nocioni. So they didn't prove too willing to spend or too smart about it.

Shakes wrote:

Basically the proven way to win is to get a superstar and then surround them with the right pieces. We haven't had the superstar, so we'd be damn fools to spend big and lock ourselves in to the other pieces before we have that.

Not quite.
In fact it's kinda rare to have a superstar that becomes a FA and changes teams. More often superstars are traded. Which is why the best thing to do is try to acquire as many assets as possible so when the opportunity comes along, you can make a move and trade for 1-2 players that can help you win.

Get picks, young players, players on decent contracts - and play an up-tempo high octane offense which helps inflate stats. Your assets will have even more value that way.

Shakes wrote:

If Rose turns into a All-NBA first team sort of player and JR doesn't want to spend for a supporting cast then you can yell cheap.

He will pay for a supporting cast. He just won't pay for a second star to help Rose take the team to the elite level - cause no superstar, not even Lebron, can win it all by himself.

So you can go ahead and make vacation plans for late May and June for the next decade, cause you won't risk missing the Bulls playing the Finals or even conference finals.

 

[houheffna]

You've been telling me stories about how and why trade talks failed. I'll give you some facts:

- Elton Brand for a draft pick (Brand was already a 20-10 guy in just his 2nd year, yet he was traded away. Weak ass players like Hinrich and Deng were kept and paid - overpaid, that is)
- Chandler traded for PJ's corpse and his expiring contract
- PJ's expiring not used in a trade for someone that could help. And assuming that there was no trade available, they could have swapped him for Kurt Thomas' contract, which would have given them an expiring for next season to try and trade
- Gordon allowed to walk instead of at least trying to get a S&T and get something in return
- Jamal Crawford dealt away for basically nothing

Elton Brand wasn't coming back after his third year, so Krause thought, that is why he traded him. Krause had a grand idea of Twin Towers 2k. Bad idea. But hardly a deliberate stunt to stay mediocre.

Chandler was traded because Wallace was on the team, why would you need both players with large contracts, with the same type of game, and no offensive game on your team at the same time? Makes no sense whatsoever. Plus Skiles and Chandler did not get along so they traded Chandler, makes sense. The only mistake in that PJ trade was that they didn't try to keep J.R. Smith. That was a mistake, but again not a move to force mediocrity.

Gordon seemed to be most expendable after they got Salmons. A sign and trade is weak because Gordon is a free agent after the season. He might not want to go to Toronto, or anywhere the Bulls could deal with, why would he want to help them out? Plus, he might have cost himself serious money by accepting a sign and trade. I don't believe other teams would have paid him nearly 12mil per year like Detroit did. He didn't even talk to other teams. Why would Detroit make a trade for contracts for Gordon when they can get him in the offseason? Who would the Bulls want from Detroit that helps them win anything?

Jamal Crawford? Almost 20 mil in cap space was saved in that deal. They were not going to keep a ball hogging, jump shooting, no defending SG for the money he wanted. They didnt want to do it so they traded him to get cap space, so that they could sign their young players to long term deals. Otherwise they don't sign Chandler long term or sign and trade Curry to the Knicks without that money. Because we know how Reinsdorf feels about the lux tax.

However, I don't see in any of these moves where they turned down the opportunity to win a championship. They never had the players to win on that level, they never had the superstar to win on that level.

He will pay for a supporting cast. He just won't pay for a second star to help Rose take the team to the elite level - cause no superstar, not even Lebron, can win it all by himself.

What makes you say that? Is there some precedence for that statement? When has the Bulls not helped their superstar win a championship? Pippen, Rodman? What were they retained/acquired for?

Not quite.
In fact it's kinda rare to have a superstar that becomes a FA and changes teams. More often superstars are traded. Which is why the best thing to do is try to acquire as many assets as possible so when the opportunity comes along, you can make a move and trade for 1-2 players that can help you win.

Get picks, young players, players on decent contracts - and play an up-tempo high octane offense which helps inflate stats. Your assets will have even more value that way.

What basketball book did you get THAT from?

 

[TheStig]

Shakes wrote:

You don't win by spending money ... you win by spending money wisely. There's no point spending money just because you can, that road only leads to a Knicks style team.

Basically the proven way to win is to get a superstar and then surround them with the right pieces. We haven't had the superstar, so we'd be damn fools to spend big and lock ourselves in to the other pieces before we have that.

If Rose turns into a All-NBA first team sort of player and JR doesn't want to spend for a supporting cast then you can yell cheap.

Yeah, you have to spend it wisely but if you look at all the teams that made the semifinals last year, everyone was in the LT except for Denver, who missed it by a few dollars. It is a necessity these days to spend that money to be a contender. JR in the past didn't want to spend the extra money to put us over the top, he didn't want to pay to bring us gasol, who would have made us a contender and would have advance a team that made the 2nd round the year before. You have also this confidence in JR spending the money when the time is right but he hasn't yet for any of our previous 3 playoff teams when we were considered an up and coming team that should contend. We never could make that next step because we could never bring in another piece. In all the years of the LT, all the big markets have paid the tax except us, they all chose to put out a better product, instead of just making the largest profit by a wide margin.

 

[dunkside.com]

houheffna wrote:

Elton Brand wasn't coming back after his third year, so Krause thought, that is why he traded him.

you're quite the mind reader, aren't you ?!

houheffna wrote:

Jamal Crawford? Almost 20 mil in cap space was saved in that deal.

yeah, my point exactly. money saved trumps ANYTHING.

houheffna wrote:

When has the Bulls not helped their superstar win a championship? Pippen, Rodman? What were they retained/acquired for?

maybe you should pick up a book or 2. pippen (his rights to be more specific) was aquired in a trade for the rights for olden polynice. a trade with seattle. he (according to sam smith) was desperate for security so he signed 2 long term deals (no doubt, the choices were his, nobody forced him to sign) in the period when salaries were increasing exponentially. as a consequence he was severely underpaid for most of his contract with the bulls. bulls refused renegotiation and when he became a FA they just let him go.

pippen was making 2.7 million in '98.
before that season he had already helped the bulls win 5 (FIVE) titles and was the undisputed no 2 behind jordan. yet he was paid just 2.7 million.

glenn robinson was making twice as much.
gugliotta was making twice as much.
keith van horn, as a rookie, was making as much as him.

so cut the crap.
pippen was underpaid and treated like shit.
he was a dumbass for signing those contracts, but when the guy makes you so much money and brings you 3, 4, 5, 6 titles, you can throw him a bone. if you don't, that's just exploiting him. if he brings you tens of millions and he gets 1-2%, that's exploitation.

and rodman was brought for perdue (which is a move for which i give krause a lot of credit). but should rodman have cost the bulls more, fuggedaboudit. he was making 2.5 mil at the time.

i really don't know why the hell am i wasting my time with you anymore. it's clear that you have your head up jr's ass so far that when you sneeze he thinks he got the hiccups. no matter how much evidence i bring, you, being the mind reader you are, know much better than me what everyone is/was thinking and exactly why things did or didn't happen in a certain way. if i wasn't an atheist, i'd say you're god almighty and all-knowing.

i really don't know if you're trolling or you really are that blind, but fanbois like you got me sick of realgm. this disregard all facts and logic and eat up everything we're fed by the bulls attitude makes me doubt the fact that the human race has evolved at all and makes me wonder how have some of its members survived this far without just walking onto incoming traffic or walking off buildings and bridges like the lemmings (the video game).

 

[houheffna]

You know what, I continue to discuss, you continue to insult, which only makes you look silly. You know what? I cry for Pippen. boo fucking hoo. he signed the contract, tell me when a player has gone to management and said, I ain't worth it, take this money back. How often does that happen? When has the Bulls gone to a player and requested he give some of his money back? Any franchise for that matter? Rarely if ever. They set Pippen up with a sweetheart of a deal where he was overpaid for his work in 1998. At one point he was making 20mil and he was scoring 10,11 points a game! Did he go back to the Blazers and say "hey look take at least 5 mil, I don't deserve this..." You are bringing up Tom Gugliotta, Tom friggin Gugliotta! I know about Pippen for Polynice, was watching when it happened. Over here in the good ol' USA, but he had to be resigned didn't he. And he was desperate, oh so sad, so very sad, get over it, he did. He came back to the Bulls, so he obviously got over whatever, probably because of that big ass contract. And you hold a grudge for him? Good for you....and by the way, as far as the Pippen example goes, I have books, got a dictionary, know what retain mean?

Did you read what they did with the money as a result of the Crawford trade? I pretty much explained it.


I am not blind, I have pointed out times where I have been frustrated with Reinsdorf, just like I have been frustrated with the owner of all of my favorite teams. However, I get over it and look at things from both sides. I am not trolling or blind, I am being reasonable. And I am stating my opinions, don't care where you are from Germany, Sweden, Serbia, Uganda...wherever the hell you are from, you need to learn some diplomacy and respect...get over it. Seriously. Religiosity has nothing to do with this, don't care if you are an atheist, but you should respect my opinion as I have yours. I have no quarrels with you, we are discussing sports, I think its sad that you are thousands of miles away and you are Sooooo heartbroken over how Reinsdorf mishandles people. As I have said before, many, many former players and employees swear by the guy, it is all in who you talk to, but whoever it is, their opinions matter no less than yours. Maybe communism has passed in your country, but you seem frustrated when you cannot control someone else's thoughts. Get used to democracy, and get used to me saying whatever I feel. Again, I simply disagree with you and you disagree with me. Nothing else to it. If you hate me because of that, that reflects on you, not me. There are others on this forum who dislike or even hate me for my opinions. I don't care. Respect me and I respect you. That is all.

 

[Shakes]

dunkside.com wrote:

Not quite.
In fact it's kinda rare to have a superstar that becomes a FA and changes teams. More often superstars are traded. Which is why the best thing to do is try to acquire as many assets as possible so when the opportunity comes along, you can make a move and trade for 1-2 players that can help you win.

Get picks, young players, players on decent contracts - and play an up-tempo high octane offense which helps inflate stats. Your assets will have even more value that way.

The best way to get a superstar is actually to tank, ie throw away all your assets for picks.

And spending money doesn't get you assets. Players value is tied up in their contract figures. The way to get assets is to get good players tied up on cheap contracts, which usually means rookie contracts, which again means trading your players for picks and/or tanking.

 

[dunkside.com]

houheffna wrote:

You know what, I continue to discuss, you continue to insult, which only makes you look silly. You know what? I cry for Pippen. boo fucking hoo. he signed the contract, tell me when a player has gone to management and said, I ain't worth it, take this money back. How often does that happen? When has the Bulls gone to a player and requested he give some of his money back? Any franchise for that matter? Rarely if ever. They set Pippen up with a sweetheart of a deal where he was overpaid for his work in 1998. At one point he was making 20mil and he was scoring 10,11 points a game! Did he go back to the Blazers and say "hey look take at least 5 mil, I don't deserve this..." You are bringing up Tom Gugliotta, Tom friggin Gugliotta! I know about Pippen for Polynice, was watching when it happened. Over here in the good ol' USA, but he had to be resigned didn't he. And he was desperate, oh so sad, so very sad, get over it, he did. He came back to the Bulls, so he obviously got over whatever, probably because of that big ass contract. And you hold a grudge for him? Good for you....and by the way, as far as the Pippen example goes, I have books, got a dictionary, know what retain mean?

Did you read what they did with the money as a result of the Crawford trade? I pretty much explained it.


I am not blind, I have pointed out times where I have been frustrated with Reinsdorf, just like I have been frustrated with the owner of all of my favorite teams. However, I get over it and look at things from both sides. I am not trolling or blind, I am being reasonable. And I am stating my opinions, don't care where you are from Germany, Sweden, Serbia, Uganda...wherever the hell you are from, you need to learn some diplomacy and respect...get over it. Seriously. Religiosity has nothing to do with this, don't care if you are an atheist, but you should respect my opinion as I have yours. I have no quarrels with you, we are discussing sports, I think its sad that you are thousands of miles away and you are Sooooo heartbroken over how Reinsdorf mishandles people. As I have said before, many, many former players and employees swear by the guy, it is all in who you talk to, but whoever it is, their opinions matter no less than yours. Maybe communism has passed in your country, but you seem frustrated when you cannot control someone else's thoughts. Get used to democracy, and get used to me saying whatever I feel. Again, I simply disagree with you and you disagree with me. Nothing else to it. If you hate me because of that, that reflects on you, not me. There are others on this forum who dislike or even hate me for my opinions. I don't care. Respect me and I respect you. That is all.

maybe my tone was too harsh, so sorry about that.
of course you're entitled to your own opinion. it's still frustrating though when you choose to defend someone like reinsdorf.
remember, i'm not saying he did anything illegal, or that he's a bad business man.
all i'm saying is that he's a bad owner for a sports franchise - the bulls.
and to prove me wrong i'd have to see the bulls make at least one finals appearance in the next few years.

 

[houheffna]

maybe my tone was too harsh, so sorry about that.
of course you're entitled to your own opinion. it's still frustrating though when you choose to defend someone like reinsdorf.
remember, i'm not saying he did anything illegal, or that he's a bad business man.
all i'm saying is that he's a bad owner for a sports franchise - the bulls.
and to prove me wrong i'd have to see the bulls make at least one finals appearance in the next few years.

I think we have to give Rose a chance to develop, I right now don't know what type of PG he will be, I just know he is more than likely an allstar. If they got lucky again like they did with Jordan, so be it. All I know is there is no business like winning. The reason the Celtics and the Lakers have very prosperous franchises is because of their winning traditions. I believe that Reinsdorf wants to win, because he makes the most money possible that way. The franchise is worth over half a billion dollars because of winning, period.

I used to feel the same way you felt. Back when the people would boo Jerry Krause so badly that his wife would cry and even MJ tried to stick up for him. It wasn't until I saw the little fat man scrambling around in 2000, trying to sign people and watching everything crumble around him that I felt remorse. He was really trying to bring in talent, he tanked two seasons and got a lottery pick for this...and it didn't work. He was reduced to trying to get Glen Rice to come to town because the big boys wanted nothing to do with him. It was sad but he put forth the effort. Watching that happen was like watching cancer spread over the whole franchise, and those were dark days for Bulls fans, he was left with getting players like Ron Mercer and a young Brad Miller, and fans were left with memories of dominance. I just cannot fault them for trying at that time to get premiere talent. And so I do see what I consider bad luck that just might have changed with the trade made at the deadline, which was a very good trade for the Bulls. We will see what happens. I am hoping for the best, so that neither you or I have to wonder about the intentions of management anymore. That is what is important.

 

[dunkside.com]

houheffna wrote:

I think we have to give Rose a chance to develop, I right now don't know what type of PG he will be, I just know he is more than likely an allstar. If they got lucky again like they did with Jordan, so be it. All I know is there is no business like winning. The reason the Celtics and the Lakers have very prosperous franchises is because of their winning traditions. I believe that Reinsdorf wants to win, because he makes the most money possible that way. The franchise is worth over half a billion dollars because of winning, period.

I used to feel the same way you felt. Back when the people would boo Jerry Krause so badly that his wife would cry and even MJ tried to stick up for him. It wasn't until I saw the little fat man scrambling around in 2000, trying to sign people and watching everything crumble around him that I felt remorse. He was really trying to bring in talent, he tanked two seasons and got a lottery pick for this...and it didn't work. He was reduced to trying to get Glen Rice to come to town because the big boys wanted nothing to do with him. It was sad but he put forth the effort. Watching that happen was like watching cancer spread over the whole franchise, and those were dark days for Bulls fans, he was left with getting players like Ron Mercer and a young Brad Miller, and fans were left with memories of dominance. I just cannot fault them for trying at that time to get premiere talent. And so I do see what I consider bad luck that just might have changed with the trade made at the deadline, which was a very good trade for the Bulls. We will see what happens. I am hoping for the best, so that neither you or I have to wonder about the intentions of management anymore. That is what is important.

But WHY didn't the big boys want to deal with Krause ?
You think they had a bias against fat people ?
NO. It's because of his reputation. It's because of the way he treated people. What goes around, comes around. Ain't Karma a bitch ?

Earlier you told me how he had no reason to reward Pippen with a raise.
Care to give that idea a little more thought ?
What do you think were the other players saying/thinking ?
"Wow, look at how the Bulls are treating a top 50 all time player, a player who helped them get all those titles and helped them make all that money. I can't wait to have to deal with Krause for my contract"
or
"If Krause calls, tell him I'm off hunting polar bears in the tropical forest. On the moon."

Honestly, I don't give a crap for Krause's feelings, just like he didn't give a crap for other people's feelings. If you've been screwing people over for a living, don't play the sympathy card. When it's your time to get screwed, just bend over and take it.

In the end, however you want to spin it, it still comes to the Bulls either being incompetent, or not trying. As I explained earlier, if the GM was incompetent and not merely obeying Reinsdorf's will, he'd have been fired. Krause was fired way too late, and Paxson is still handling the signing and trades (Gar just took over day-to-day duties according to a press release that I read some time ago).

 

[houheffna]

But WHY didn't the big boys want to deal with Krause ?
You think they had a bias against fat people ?
NO. It's because of his reputation. It's because of the way he treated people. What goes around, comes around. Ain't Karma a bitch ?

Earlier you told me how he had no reason to reward Pippen with a raise.
Care to give that idea a little more thought ?
What do you think were the other players saying/thinking ?
"Wow, look at how the Bulls are treating a top 50 all time player, a player who helped them get all those titles and helped them make all that money. I can't wait to have to deal with Krause for my contract"
or
"If Krause calls, tell him I'm off hunting polar bears in the tropical forest. On the moon."

Krause was not a nice guy, he got fired at the right time, he had a chance to build and rebuild. It was fair because he was the GM for 6 championships, like it or not he had a lot to do with those championships. Now I have to ask you where you are getting your info concerning Krause and the "big boys"? Who is reading minds now? And does one speak for all? Plus that was another era. That doesn't explain why they don't have a franchise player today. I don't think Reinsdorf is at fault for that. What franchise player was he responsible for turning away? How do you know the culture of the Bulls organization and how they operate? Reading minds....your argument is no more or less valid than mine because its all hearsay.