The LeBron James Legacy

[Fred]

I'm kind of shocked at the pathetic reaction of some journalists in response to James' bad game 5. These specific journalists, led by hacks like Ric Bucher, are usually big Kobe fans. Here are a few opinions of mine that I view as facts. You may or may not agree:

1. Michael Jordan is the best player ever. LeBron is the 2nd best player I've ever seen. And he's only 25 years old. I've had several Kobe lovers email me since the last game, asking me if I still felt that LeBron was better than Kobe. Kobe's great, but he will never be as good as James. Special thanks to Bill Simmons for reminding me of Kobe's no-shows:

THE LIST OF KOBE NO-SHOWS

• Game 6 of the 2003 Spurs series: Lakers eliminated in a 32-point blowout (Kobe scores 20, commits seven turnovers).

• Game 3, Game 4 and Game 5 of the 2004 Finals: Kobe went 4-for-13, 8-for-25 and 7-for-21 as the Pistons finished off L.A.

• Game 7 of the 2006 Suns series: Lakers lose by 32, Kobe mysteriously stops shooting in the second half in a rarely seen Eff You To My Teammates performance.

• Game 4 of the 2008 Finals: Boston rallies back from 25 down to win in L.A. Kobe finishes 6-for-19.

• Game 6 of the 2008 Finals: Boston wins the title with a 39-point blowout, Kobe goes 7-for-22.

Every great player has bad games. James has done more with less than any other player besides Jordan.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/100512&sportCat=nba

2. Tonight could be the biggest non-Bulls game in Chicago Bulls history. If the Celtics win this series, it's either us or New York. If he comes here, I think we'll win several titles, and his legacy as the 2nd best ever will be solidified.

3. If the Cavs lose tonight, Reinsdorf must do whatever it takes to get LeBron James in Chicago. If that means hiring Calipari at 6 million per year, you do it.
http://www.mrsec.com/story/calipari-sits-courtside-at-cavs-game-last-night

If there is anyone in this Forum who would rather go in another direction, and not go after James, please show yourself and explain yourself. If you say you don't like the dance he does during games, I'm going to go into a rage that you haven't seen since the days of Steve Gorches.

 

[brett05]

Fred wrote:

Every great player has bad games.

Absolutely true.

James has done more with less than any other player besides Jordan.

That should read including Jordan, not besides. Michael's talented teammates >>>> James talented teammates. And wouldn't the right answer be Hakeem, the Dream as doing the most with the least?

Michael is still better then LeBron at this point though.

 

[Kush77]

Kobe is better than Lebron right now - career wise. LeBron needs to do more, bottom line. And if he gets upset again, well that doesn't look good for him.

Maybe Bill Simmons can point out the Gold Medal game in 2008 - with Kobe and James on the same team and the WORLD watching.

When Spain got to within 1 point, and the US on the verge of chocking - who took over the game. Not James. Kobe did. 4-point play and big shots down the stretch.

I'm not sure what's with the Kobe hate from people. Kobe is a better player than James.

I would take Kobe in his prime over James as of right now. James' prime is still going so that could change. Kobe is still a better scorer and the best scorer I've seen since Jordan.

I know people love to stroke it to the fact that LBJ is 325 lbs, but I still take Kobe until James accomplishes more.

All that said, I of course want the Bulls to sign him. But its amazing how the entire city has gotten into a tizzy over one ESPN guy making a comment. What happens if the Cavs win tonight?

 

[RPK]

[No message]

 

[houheffna]

When Kobe couldn't get out of the first round, he was considered the best player in the league. Now Lebron loses to Boston and has a lackluster game and he loses the title?

He is the best player in basketball. The best. That team he dragged to the finals a few years ago...nobody else has done that. That was the worst team I have ever seen in a championship round of a major sport in my lifetime. Football, baseball, hell, hockey...you name it. Even when Moses Malone beat the Lakers in 1982 (I think...) he did have Calvin Murphy...Lebron didn't even have that on his team.

Lebron might have to pull a Shaq and leave, but no doubt, he is the best player in the game right now...still would rather Kobe take the last shot though.

 

[Shakes]

I agree that one bad game doesn't change a thing. People want to rip on LeBron, but everyone is going to have the odd bad game. The other players are supposed to step up but nobody did. But yeah, lets blame the guy averaging 30/8/7 for the playoffs. He's clearly the problem.

Fred wrote:

2. Tonight could be the biggest non-Bulls game in Chicago Bulls history.

I think it's the only meaningful game the franchise has had since 1998.

 

[Kush77]

The people ripping LeBron doesn't make sense.

The reason this is happening is because he's a free agent and people have been talking about him leaving for over two years. Really since he signed just a 3-year deal with Cleveland.

If LBJ was under contract for the next three years, his poor game 5 wouldn't have been so blown out of proportion. Now we have to hear the folks at ESPN say every 5 minutes "Possibly LeBron's last game in a Cavs uniform."

But when it comes to Kobe vs. LeBron and rank in NBA history, LeBron hasn't passed Kobe. Doesn't he have to win a title first? I think so.

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

He is the best player in basketball. The best. That team he dragged to the finals a few years ago...nobody else has done that. That was the worst team I have ever seen in a championship round of a major sport in my lifetime. Football, baseball, hell, hockey...you name it. Even when Moses Malone beat the Lakers in 1982 (I think...) he did have Calvin Murphy...Lebron didn't even have that on his team.

I don't know. Allen Iverson in 2001 is up there too.
I know they had Mutombo but that was much more defense than offense. And the Sixers didn't have him for the whole year.
Eric Snow, Aaron McKie, George Lynch, Matt Geiger, Theo Ratliff. ugh. How that team got the Finals, that was something. And they actually stole Game 1 from the Lakers thanks to Iverson.

Iverson, Mutombo, Snow, McKie vs. James, Hughes, Z and Gooden. Both players pulled off a miracle, I'll say that.

I guess LeBron beating the Pistons in Det. was more impressive than what the Sixers did en route to their Finals. I could buy that argument as giving LBJ the edge with the 2007 Cavs. Also Philly having the better coaching Brown.

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

Even when Moses Malone beat the Lakers in 1982 (I think...) he did have Calvin Murphy...Lebron didn't even have that on his team.

I went to look that up and it was the 81 Rockets. Wow. I never knew this but that team was 40-42 and made it to the Finals. I never knew a sub-.500 team ever went to the Finals. They had Moses, Murphy, Robert Reid and Ann B. Davis ba bum bum ching. No seriously, they had Rudy T and Mike Dunleavy. And from the stats, no major time missed by anyone. Never knew that.

 

[Shakes]

I think you sell the 76ers short. Mutombo was the DPOY that year. He averaged near enough to 14/14/3 in the playoffs. That's some pretty damn good help to have on your team. Also they may not have had any big time scorers other than Iverson but they were a very strong offensive rebounding team. That's pretty much the way to build a team around a guy like Iverson who is going to have the ball a lot and miss a ton of shots.

I don't think LeBron's 2007 team was anywhere near as well constructed around him as Iverson's team. He got there on pure individual effort.

 

[Diddy1122]

The Lebron hype has seriously gotten WAAAAAY out of control. I admit I went alil drunk on Lebron hype yesterday as well but I have since sobered up. I would absolutely love to have him in a Bulls uni but let's not get carried away, it's still probably a long shot. Everyone needs to understand that him leaving Cleveland would make him villified in his home state. For a guy who claims undying love & support for all things Ohio that has to weigh heavily into his decision.

And Lebron is better than Kobe. I don't even see how it's that much of an argument. What this kid has done thus far has been unbelievable. His playoff numbers are better than anyone the league has ever seen not named Michael Jeffrey Jordan. Granted he hasn't won a title yet but he also didn't have the luxury of playing with a HOF center from the beginning of his career or have arguably the greatest coach of all time calling the plays. Don't get me wrong Kobe will go down as one of the all time greats, but Lebron has the potential to surpass MJ which is something Kobe will never do.

 

[houheffna]

I went to look that up and it was the 81 Rockets. Wow. I never knew this but that team was 40-42 and made it to the Finals. I never knew a sub-.500 team ever went to the Finals. They had Moses, Murphy, Robert Reid and Ann B. Davis ba bum bum ching. No seriously, they had Rudy T and Mike Dunleavy. And from the stats, no major time missed by anyone. Never knew that.

Yep, and that is what happens when you sit around applying for jobs online all day.

 

[Kush77]

Shakes wrote:

I think you sell the 76ers short. Mutombo was the DPOY that year. He averaged near enough to 14/14/3 in the playoffs. That's some pretty damn good help to have on your team. Also they may not have had any big time scorers other than Iverson but they were a very strong offensive rebounding team. That's pretty much the way to build a team around a guy like Iverson who is going to have the ball a lot and miss a ton of shots.

I don't think LeBron's 2007 team was anywhere near as well constructed around him as Iverson's team. He got there on pure individual effort.

I know he was DPOY but he didn't score, he wasn't an offensive player and neither was any of the rest 76ers outside of Iverson. No one could stop AI.

And they didn't have Mutombo the full season, yet AI had the 76ers, minus Mutombo, in a position to have the best record in the East, which they locked down with Mutombo.

The Cavs could rebound too. They had Z, LeBron, Varajeo and Gooden. They wern't hurting.

To me the 2001 76ers and the 2007 Cavs are on par. But if you want to give the Cavs the edge for upsetting the Pistons, so be it. I'm not gonna argue with that.

 

[Kush77]

Diddy1122 wrote:

And Lebron is better than Kobe. I don't even see how it's that much of an argument. What this kid has done thus far has been unbelievable. His playoff numbers are better than anyone the league has ever seen not named Michael Jeffrey Jordan. Granted he hasn't won a title yet but he also didn't have the luxury of playing with a HOF center from the beginning of his career or have arguably the greatest coach of all time calling the plays. Don't get me wrong Kobe will go down as one of the all time greats, but Lebron has the potential to surpass MJ which is something Kobe will never do.

LeBron hasn't won a title yet how can you say he's better than Kobe right now career wise? Starting his carrer with a HOF center is something I would say as well, until Kobe won a title last year as the main man. That can't be a criticism anymore. Kobe did it as a number 1.

As far as all-time greats I rank Kobe ahead of LeBron right now. It's silly to say LeBron ranks ahead of him when he hasn't even won a title and is on the verge of being upset two straight years.

 

[Shakes]

I agree that Iverson didn't have any pure offensive players around him, but the team was at least average offensively and actually slightly better than the Cavs (relative to the league at the time, keeping in mind rule changes have meant scoring is up now).

Basically I think when you have a guy who needs the ball so much like Iverson it's hard to even add more offensive players: look at how the Nuggets were less than the sum of the parts when they tried Iverson and Melo. So I think the 76ers team was actually better than the names would suggest, Iverson and a bunch of offensive rebounding and defense is basically the perfect team for him. Where as with LeBron we've seen with later Cavs teams improvement in wins just how bad the 2007 team was constructed.

 

[Kush77]

Shakes wrote:

I agree that Iverson didn't have any pure offensive players around him, but the team was at least average offensively and actually slightly better than the Cavs (relative to the league at the time, keeping in mind rule changes have meant scoring is up now).

Basically I think when you have a guy who needs the ball so much like Iverson it's hard to even add more offensive players: look at how the Nuggets were less than the sum of the parts when they tried Iverson and Melo. So I think the 76ers team was actually better than the names would suggest, Iverson and a bunch of offensive rebounding and defense is basically the perfect team for him. Where as with LeBron we've seen with later Cavs teams improvement in wins just how bad the 2007 team was constructed.

Good points. you're saying the Sixers, while we agree they're not super talented, were PERFECTLY built for Allen Iverson. And they also had the perfect coach for that team. The Cavs were far from perfect - Hughes was not a fit with LBJ - yet LBJ still got them to the Finals. Point taken.

I couldn't remember how many games that Cavs team won so I looked it up and they did win 50. The Pistons only won 53. I thought the gap was bigger for some reason.

 

[RC_Skinny22]

I also would prefer Kobe to Lebron.

In my eyes Kobe is the more intelligent player. He is a better scorer and his technique skills are better. Lebron "only" has his body. Lebron has to learn how to shoot the basketball better. And nobody is shooting it better like Kobe. Bryant is a player with finesse and this is why he is so damn clutch.

That also makes it more easy to guard Lebron than Kobe.

And let´s be honest: Lebron´s D? I have never seen a player fouling or goaltending during his blocks that much and nobody calls it. This is because of his hype.

 

[Diddy1122]

Kush77 wrote:

LeBron hasn't won a title yet how can you say he's better than Kobe right now career wise? Starting his carrer with a HOF center is something I would say as well, until Kobe won a title last year as the main man. That can't be a criticism anymore. Kobe did it as a number 1.

As far as all-time greats I rank Kobe ahead of LeBron right now. It's silly to say LeBron ranks ahead of him when he hasn't even won a title and is on the verge of being upset two straight years.

Yes Kobe did it as #1, with a legit all star center next to him. If you gave Lebron Pau Gasol the Cavs wouldn't lose a single game in the playoffs. It's an absolute travesty what the Cleveland organization has done to this kid. He has done anything & everything to get the team to the finals, which he did by himself at the age of 22, & the organization has consistently let him down. He's never had a consistent #2 option. Kobe has always had this in his championship seasons. And I must say it again, the greatest coach of all time. Hell I'm betting that if Lebron had a better coach than that hack Mike Brown, he would have a ring already. Kobe is one of the greats, no doubt, but when all is said & done I'm almost 100% sure that Lebron will be the 2nd best player of all time, if not the best.

 

[houheffna]

Wow, all of this Kobe love....where was it when folk were saying that Duncan is better? I am just wondering here. "Kobe is a rapist", "Kobe is a bad teammate", "Kobe is no better alltime than Pippen", "Jordan did everything Kobe does...MUCH,MUCH better", "Kobe destroyed a championship team"....lol. Just a bunch of dumb s---.

I still think Lebron is the best player on the planet right now. He is 25...I don't even remember what I was doing at that age! I started watching extensively when he was around that age. Kobe was pretty damn good at this age...Jordan was great at this age already. Lebron has to take that next step, this summer will affect his legacy greatly. He stays in Cleveland....nobody is scared of him there now. He lost there and lost there badly this season.

Yes Kobe did it as #1, with a legit all star center next to him. If you gave Lebron Pau Gasol the Cavs wouldn't lose a single game in the playoffs. It's an absolute travesty what the Cleveland organization has done to this kid.

I don't know about all that dude. Orlando would still give them a good run if they had Pau or not. And what travesty? They were not able to put the best talent around him...Boozer double crossed them and left. They pursued every avenue possible. That was the way the chips fell, Lebron is not some victim here...

 

[Diddy1122]

houheffna wrote:

I don't know about all that dude. Orlando would still give them a good run if they had Pau or not. And what travesty? They were not able to put the best talent around him...Boozer double crossed them and left. They pursued every avenue possible. That was the way the chips fell, Lebron is not some victim here...

I seem to remember them not wanting to give up a certain JJ Hickson in a possible Amare deal that was on the table. How's that looking for them right now? Maybe travesty wasn't the best word but Ferry has not done a good job of putting better talent around him it's that simple.

As for the Boozer double cross, give me a friggin' break. Jim Paxson was a friggin' moron for letting him out of his deal. Boozer is not a back stabber for getting the best deal he could possibly get. Any GM in their right mind would never release a player of Boozer's caliber who would become unrestricted after doing so. That's all on Jim Paxson.