Time to build a new rig ???

[AussieBear]

the art of almost.

a once up and coming thick one with the name to drive dat search.. her name siri...

 

[Crystallas]

Well, get your performance targets and application preferences sorted out, and start putting together a budget to spec' out.

I haven't built a new main system in a while as well, making GTAV PC the moment where I go all in. And Windows 10 might have some preferences for optimization. Depends on how you want to do it. Especially when Windows 10 will be a performance upgrade in itself(not just the OS, but DirectX), and it's already classic shell compatible(so it can behave like 7 or XP, depending on what you like). The Iris Mesa drivers (X11R7.7/3.18+) are also very tasty, if you run linux or dual boot/virtual machine.

But yeah, budget is going to be #1. Then do you want 4K now, or 4K later. I run a 4K monitor, and it's not all that mature. But the VESA standards that improve 4K usage and get rid of the issues that existing configurations have, are being manufactured right now.

 

[AussieBear]

Well, get your performance targets and application preferences sorted out, and start putting together a budget to spec' out.

I haven't built a new main system in a while as well, making GTAV PC the moment where I go all in. And Windows 10 might have some preferences for optimization. Depends on how you want to do it. Especially when Windows 10 will be a performance upgrade in itself(not just the OS, but DirectX), and it's already classic shell compatible(so it can behave like 7 or XP, depending on what you like). The Iris Mesa drivers (X11R7.7/3.18+) are also very tasty, if you run linux or dual boot/virtual machine.

But yeah, budget is going to be #1. Then do you want 4K now, or 4K later. I run a 4K monitor, and it's not all that mature. But the VESA standards that improve 4K usage and get rid of the issues that existing configurations have, are being manufactured right now.

im not sure about budget, its more about trying to appeal to the wife when it comes to just wasting money on a toy in her eyes. however, when i can pull the im building it card and i already have a video card.. it may go over better. She'll still argue i dont need a new one and we need a bigger house and i want a new car yaddda yadda yadda.. shes just not into tech even though she uses it.. well after i show her how. :/

im not even sure what i want out of the rig, other than say 5 years of gaming. both of my machines (desktop/laptop) now are older 1st, 2nd gen i3s i got in 2010 and 2011 - they work for everything i currently do and i'll keep them. however, its just about time for an update though when it comes to pc gaming. im not worried about 4k when its comes to my pc for now, our home tv is 4k.

im thinking about going amd for a cpu this time around. the AMD FX Vishera 8-Core 4.0GHz or AMD FX-9590 Vishera 4.7GHz 8 core.

i loved gtav on the ps3.. id love to see the kind of mods that will be on the pc.. what kind of rig are you building for this?

 

[AussieBear]

forgot to mention im not opposed to intel cpus. i know the k's out perform the amds for the most part when it comes to gaming. im just looking long term, i think more games will come out maximizing those extra cores making the amd fx a good choice. who knows

 

[Crystallas]

Right now it's an Intel world for CPUs. Rory Reed (former AMD CEO) Shifted nearly all CPU development focus from x86 to ARM, when the CPU division was made up of 90% x86 engineers. :facepalm: Not the best idea when you're a company that is much smaller than David, in the David vs Goliath comparison. How bad is it? Well, that Vishera CPU is a 220W TDP CPU compared to 140W for Intel's current priceerformance comparison, and that power difference does add up over time. Plus, no AMD board supports the full range of new i/o standards right now. If you want to go AMD, you should wait for the new products to come out fairly soon built on Carrizo. CPUs are pretty much dead, it's all APUs from now on out. For gaming, that's more valuable than having extra CPU cores anyways, and they interact with a second GPU better, while being able to perform lower latency tasks on the APU in share with going to the PCIe lanes. In short, for gaming, APU with good GPU > more cores.

So I'm guessing you're looking at the $900 range, if you're settling on a $230 CPU. And that might be a cheap route for a great rig, although it's a dead-end build. Meaning, no CPU upgrades and major bottle necks on the existing motherboard with later upgrades.


This is my main system now. http://www.chicitysports.com/forum/showthread.php/34575-Just-ordered-parts-for-my-new-system And it's been *almost* 2 years, which, for me, my line of work, is a LONG time between major overhauls. So as far as what I'm going to build next, no idea. Nothing on the market blows me away and is a big enough upgrade to make it worthwhile, although with GTAV, my excuse will be going after better PCIe lanes for better multi-GPU support. But I need to figure this out soon, as I can still sell a lot of my existing parts to recoup costs.

 

[AussieBear]

Right now it's an Intel world for CPUs. Rory Reed (former AMD CEO) Shifted nearly all CPU development focus from x86 to ARM, when the CPU division was made up of 90% x86 engineers. :facepalm: Not the best idea when you're a company that is much smaller than David, in the David vs Goliath comparison. How bad is it? Well, that Vishera CPU is a 220W TDP CPU compared to 140W for Intel's current priceerformance comparison, and that power difference does add up over time. Plus, no AMD board supports the full range of new i/o standards right now. If you want to go AMD, you should wait for the new products to come out fairly soon built on Carrizo. CPUs are pretty much dead, it's all APUs from now on out. For gaming, that's more valuable than having extra CPU cores anyways, and they interact with a second GPU better, while being able to perform lower latency tasks on the APU in share with going to the PCIe lanes. In short, for gaming, APU with good GPU > more cores.

So I'm guessing you're looking at the $900 range, if you're settling on a $230 CPU. And that might be a cheap route for a great rig, although it's a dead-end build. Meaning, no CPU upgrades and major bottle necks on the existing motherboard with later upgrades.


This is my main system now. http://www.chicitysports.com/forum/showthread.php/34575-Just-ordered-parts-for-my-new-system And it's been *almost* 2 years, which, for me, my line of work, is a LONG time between major overhauls. So as far as what I'm going to build next, no idea. Nothing on the market blows me away and is a big enough upgrade to make it worthwhile, although with GTAV, my excuse will be going after better PCIe lanes for better multi-GPU support. But I need to figure this out soon, as I can still sell a lot of my existing parts to recoup costs.

900 doesnt sound bad, but i could go more. its just that the aussie dollar isnt worth shit right now (we are at .76 to 1 usd), so im paying a premium. i might wait like you suggested, its just bad timing for me since im looking a buying a new car and we might be buying a bigger home.
then add in i want to buy two extra monitors, ill probably want to upgrade my speaker system, and ill probably throw in a oculus rift with it comes out - the wife wont like it at all.

 

[AussieBear]

my other thought about having 8 cores is related to the new consoles having 8 cores. developers will be building to optimize those 8 cores for awhile. so i thought that either an 8 core amd or even an intel would be alright at least during the new consoles life cycle. its just the i7 5960 is 1400-1800 here right now and if i can spend a few hundred for a amd, its hard to say no.

 

[Jester]

I just built my new system a few months ago and it screams. It cost me ~1500 but I use it all the time. It's hooked up to my 70" LED TV and looks incredible. I wouldn't be able to go back to a desk and monitor.

 

[Crystallas]

my other thought about having 8 cores is related to the new consoles having 8 cores. developers will be building to optimize those 8 cores for awhile. so i thought that either an 8 core amd or even an intel would be alright at least during the new consoles life cycle. its just the i7 5960 is 1400-1800 here right now and if i can spend a few hundred for a amd, its hard to say no.

It doesn't really work that way. The purpose of having more cores, is to process a thread outside of the main core. It's similar to the memory argument.

If two threads can be processed in a single core of a faster CPU than the same two threads in two cores, then why would you want more cores? The software doesn't care if you have one core or twenty(given the assumption that the CPU init/drivers allow multithreading, all modern systems do, and the compiled code uses a switch to allow multithreading when possible, again all modern compilers do).

Just like the memory argument. If I can complete a memory intensive task because I run X-amount of floating point operations in a second, and I can do 50% more in a second than another system with twice as much memory. This doesn't mean the system with more memory is faster.
Which is why you have desktops with 2 cores, 4gb of ram, and 1gb of GPU memory outperforming the current consoles, sometimes by a LOT.

 

[AussieBear]

It doesn't really work that way. The purpose of having more cores, is to process a thread outside of the main core. It's similar to the memory argument.

If two threads can be processed in a single core of a faster CPU than the same two threads in two cores, then why would you want more cores? The software doesn't care if you have one core or twenty(given the assumption that the CPU init/drivers allow multithreading, all modern systems do, and the compiled code uses a switch to allow multithreading when possible, again all modern compilers do).

Just like the memory argument. If I can complete a memory intensive task because I run X-amount of floating point operations in a second, and I can do 50% more in a second than another system with twice as much memory. This doesn't mean the system with more memory is faster.
Which is why you have desktops with 2 cores, 4gb of ram, and 1gb of GPU memory outperforming the current consoles, sometimes by a LOT.

im not trying to argue with you about cores since im not an engineer and i frankly dont know much about them. im just trying to better understand your position, perhaps your education on the matter will school me on the subject. i get what you are saying in sense, but if a game is specifically develop to optimize those 8 cores wouldnt that be different than what you are saying. i mean take cites xxl, they finally added mutli core support and it improves game performance compared to their past releases which didnt.

i know in benchmark terms a 4 core i5 4690k (unclocked) easily outperforms the 8 core fx 8350 (unclocked) especially games designed to maximizes single cores as you speak of, but a game like bf4 (which optimizes those 8 cores) has the 8 core amd shining. I mean stock, the 8350 becomes near par with the I5 in BF4 but when the 8350 is overclocked to around 4.5 ghz its performing near the i7 4770k. I think this is good since the AMD FX-9590 is the stock competitor of the I7.

having those 8 cores may also be good if people are streaming the game, having their own music running in the back ground and are rendering some video at the same time right..

As you said, a down side would be running costs, which may be 2X as much, amd does have a more power friendly E version too.

its really a tough call for me.. go with the proven 4 core k intels or gamble that all future cpu intensive games optimizes those cheap ass amd8 cores. I could just cough up more for an 8 core intel though and solve both problems.

 

[Crystallas]

You'll find examples where Vishera holds its own or does better, that's because Intel doesn't multithread faster than AMD per transistor cycle. Unfortunately because AMD has changed their design and focus philosophy from IMO, the best in semiconductor history, to some experimental concept that put them behind. They're such a tiny company, they can't afford to make such mistakes. So even if their designs were superior, the lithography fell so far behind that the larger die area made a huge difference.

Small companies can't afford to constantly push to new die shrinks ahead of the competition. It's just not possible. As intel released 22nm CPUs, AMD just started rolling out 32nm. Now intel is on 14nm, and AMD is pushing out 28nm. That's a huge gap because were nearing the end of lithographic fabrication because it physically wont be possible to shrink much further and still mass produce the products. Something we have known for 30 years nearing 11nm due to material limitations, and even with all of the life support and advancements, the best known theoretical lithography will be around twice the projections from the 1980s at 3-6nm. So being around twice the theoretical die per size at this part of the game is an unbelievable advantage in performance. AMD would need to make an agreement with Samsung/Global Foundries/TSMC to build on their best offerings. And of course, none of that will happen, because intel will swing their weight around and do everything to make sure it doesn't happen(like they have a number of times already and lost a number of anti-trust cases). Intel does not play fair.

 

[AussieBear]

You'll find examples where Vishera holds its own or does better, that's because Intel doesn't multithread faster than AMD per transistor cycle. Unfortunately because AMD has changed their design and focus philosophy from IMO, the best in semiconductor history, to some experimental concept that put them behind. They're such a tiny company, they can't afford to make such mistakes. So even if their designs were superior, the lithography fell so far behind that the larger die area made a huge difference.

Small companies can't afford to constantly push to new die shrinks ahead of the competition. It's just not possible. As intel released 22nm CPUs, AMD just started rolling out 32nm. Now intel is on 14nm, and AMD is pushing out 28nm. That's a huge gap because were nearing the end of lithographic fabrication because it physically wont be possible to shrink much further and still mass produce the products. Something we have known for 30 years nearing 11nm due to material limitations, and even with all of the life support and advancements, the best known theoretical lithography will be around twice the projections from the 1980s at 3-6nm. So being around twice the theoretical die per size at this part of the game is an unbelievable advantage in performance. AMD would need to make an agreement with Samsung/Global Foundries/TSMC to build on their best offerings. And of course, none of that will happen, because intel will swing their weight around and do everything to make sure it doesn't happen(like they have a number of times already and lost a number of anti-trust cases). Intel does not play fair.

thanks for the input, it made me read up more on the subject.

Question is, what cpu/gpu combo are you going to build your gtav rig around?

I think after gathering the current data available, the amd fx will be a decent short term build (1-3.5 years) option for me. It wont cost much since i already have a gpu for now and this will leave me in a spot to see how the skylake and further cannonlake intels and amds do with gaming in general. I guess at the same time if the amd can carry me 3.5 years, i wont be paying a premium for skylakes and the such by buying right out of the gate. Plus i can hold off and see if theres pci 4.0 and cheaper ddr4 etc etc in three years time. As you had said though apus seem to be the future, hopefully this dosent kill off the desktop as this dinosaur knows it.

 

[Crystallas]

thanks for the input, it made me read up more on the subject.

Question is, what cpu/gpu combo are you going to build your gtav rig around?

I think after gathering the current data available, the amd fx will be a decent short term build (1-3.5 years) option for me. It wont cost much since i already have a gpu for now and this will leave me in a spot to see how the skylake and further cannonlake intels and amds do with gaming in general. I guess at the same time if the amd can carry me 3.5 years, i wont be paying a premium for skylakes and the such by buying right out of the gate. Plus i can hold off and see if theres pci 4.0 and cheaper ddr4 etc etc in three years time. As you had said though apus seem to be the future, hopefully this dosent kill off the desktop as this dinosaur knows it.

You still can't go wrong with the Vishera.

My main rigs are 90% work, 10% entertainment and gaming. So my system will not be good to base anything off of, as it is of purpose specification. For my tasks, my 2 year old Opteron dual CPU server is still outperforming the newest Xeon servers. But there are features I want and will use on some of the newer boards without running into bus bottlenecks(like PCIe lanes mostly). Maybe a Dual Xeon 8860 when those come out, as long as the prices aren't Special person and someone releases a decent board, other than intel themselves and supermicro. GPU, also not sure because the 300s aren't out yet. It's such a big investment, I'll need to run some of my own tests on whatever board/cpu combo to verify that it's even worth it. I try to stick to hardware with the most open firmware available, and that is nearly always AMD/AMD, because I'm a linux person and the open tools are just worlds more mature and stable. It's not even close, unless you compare the best of one end vs the worst of the other.

 

[Happy Human 1001]

do test builds with http://pcpartpicker.com/parts/partlist/

that site has a compatability filter, so when you choose a part (mobo, cpu, whatever) on your next choices, you will only see compatible options

 

[Happy Human 1001]

Also, I cannot recommend ViewSonic monitors highly enough, they are generally steals compared to their competition.

 

[MassHavoc]

FYI, it may still be going on right now, but if you are in the mood to buy an SSD, amazon is having a big sale right now. Sandisk are down and it looks like Samsung which I prefer for some reason, is moving to match. saw the Evo 500 gig for like 186 earlier.

 

[AussieBear]

FYI, it may still be going on right now, but if you are in the mood to buy an SSD, amazon is having a big sale right now. Sandisk are down and it looks like Samsung which I prefer for some reason, is moving to match. saw the Evo 500 gig for like 186 earlier.

i already have a 120 g ssd.. 500 gigs would be nice though.

my current set up though will probably go in my new tower. 120 gig ssd and 3 tb hd.. i use the ssd for my os and generally for any new games that i play all the time. it does suck that some of these newer games have 40-50 gig files.. why cant these aaa fucks learn to compress their shit like everyone else

 

[Ares]

A woman I used to work with asked me to build her son a computer and teach him how to build like a year and a half ago.... kid picked it up and got into it.

He sends me messages on Steam from time to time about building or replacing his components and whatnot.

Lol last week he tells me his WD 1TB 7200 drive is dying so he bought a 1TB SSD.... hes like "The SSDs are better right?" I was like "Well yeah but.... I mean a 1TB SSD is kind of overkill lulz"

 

[clonetrooper264]

A woman I used to work with asked me to build her son a computer and teach him how to build like a year and a half ago.... kid picked it up and got into it.

He sends me messages on Steam from time to time about building or replacing his components and whatnot.

Lol last week he tells me his WD 1TB 7200 drive is dying so he bought a 1TB SSD.... hes like "The SSDs are better right?" I was like "Well yeah but.... I mean a 1TB SSD is kind of overkill lulz"

1TB SSD? What is this madness...?

 

[Ares]

1TB SSD? What is this madness...?

Hes probably gonna use it for everything which isn't a good idea.... you don't want to use an SSD for regular storage duties.... put your OS and your games and programs that will demand alot of disk IOPS if you are using the machine for something else like maybe heavy video editing or SQL Server or something.

Have a regular cheaper drive or set of drives in RAID where you store junk like videos, pictures, documents, porn, etc.... 20$ says the kid has like 500GB of porn hes gonna store on a fucking SSD :lmao: