When did we start to fall away from the Constitution?

supraman

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So I pose this question basically for academic debate. When and Why did this country start towards its march away from the the Constitution and the freedoms it guaranteed. Take for example the 2nd Amendment issue, if our government honored the Constitution it is a moot issue, people have the right to bear arms. PERIOD.



Now I'll admit I've never been big into politics until Obama hit the scene. Yes I voted for him and yes I made a mistake. but for me the good thing that came out of it was my interest in politics and the government. I'm a big believer in Ron Paul and the majority of his views (not all but most) and I look at the Constitution and then to today's government and it breaks my heart. I feel that if we still strictly following the Constitution that we would be the best nation in the world by far (yes we are still probably the best but we could be better).
 

roshinaya

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I don't get the American obsession about the constitution. It might have been special when it was written over 220 years ago, but today it's just one among many others and the idea that America is somehow better than the rest of the world is nothing more than an illusion and just arrogance.



A constitution should be a living document and should not be followed literary as some infallible document . It should be interpreted with the historical context in mind and the "spirit" of the text should be then adapted to the modern day.



- an Evil European Socialist Commie terrorist
 

Chief Walking Stick

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[quote name="roshinaya"]I don't get the American obsession about the constitution. It might have been special when it was written over 220 years ago, but today it's just one among many others and the idea that America is somehow better than the rest of the world is nothing more than an illusion and just arrogance.



A constitution should be a living document and should not be followed literary as some infallible document . It should be interpreted with the historical context in mind and the "spirit" of the text should be then adapted to the modern day.



- an Evil European Socialist Commie terrorist[/quote]



Is it still a law that you can sue someone over $20? Isn't that the minimum? If so that's pretty sad and obviously the constitution needs to evolve to where things are today. A gun back then was used a lot differently then how they are used today.
 

LordKOTL

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The question then is...what is the "spirit" of it? Some argue that the Establishment clause/freedom of religion clause counts only to flavors of Christianity, other say it should be universal. One could also argue that the right to bear arms--the spirit of it is so people could hunt, others could argue that it's there so the populace can stange an armed rebellion if the government falters.



Unfortunately, no one interprets it the same way.



I do think, on a more broad scale, that the US strayed from it's ideals the minute it took up the idea of political parties.
 

phranchk

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[quote name="supraman"]So I pose this question basically for academic debate. When and Why did this country start towards its march away from the the Constitution and the freedoms it guaranteed. Take for example the 2nd Amendment issue, if our government honored the Constitution it is a moot issue, people have the right to bear arms. PERIOD.



Now I'll admit I've never been big into politics until Obama hit the scene. Yes I voted for him and yes I made a mistake. but for me the good thing that came out of it was my interest in politics and the government. I'm a big believer in Ron Paul and the majority of his views (not all but most) and I look at the Constitution and then to today's government and it breaks my heart. I feel that if we still strictly following the Constitution that we would be the best nation in the world by far (yes we are still probably the best but we could be better).[/quote]

I don't think your example is a good one. The right to bear arms meant the right to wage war back then. It was basically the right of the people to raise up against their government.

The full text

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."



No where in that statement does it actually say that every citizen has the right to have guns. So it's not as simple as you suggest. I highly recommend reading David Souter's Harvard commencement speech about the difficulty in interpreting the constituion today.

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2010/05/text-of-justice-david-souters-speech/
 

sth

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I know we have to make sure we have our guns. General Gage is marching his red coats up to Lexington tomorrow. So form the militia. My friend Paul Revere rode by and told me. I need a new flint lock for my musket. Why are you bitching anyway the Supreme Court has given people free reign to have guns now anyway. Might I remind you in the original constitution black people counted as 3/5ths of a human being.
 

winos5

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Before the ink was dry on the original document would be my guess. Politics and struggles for power are hardly a modern concept.
 

jaxhawksfan

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Wino I agree



STH do you have any idea why blacks didn't count as a full person? It actually had to do with eliminating slavery. If blacks counted as a whole person, then congressmen from the southern states would severely outnumber those from northern states (according to the population) and there is no way in hell they would have abolished slavery. The founders were already working to try to end slavery when the document was written.



As for our resident foreigners, you have a right to your own opinion just like you have the right to go back home if it sucks so bad here. Apparently there is at least 1 good reason why you decided to make the USA your place of residence.
 

Guest

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[quote name="jaxhawksfan"]Wino I agree



STH do you have any idea why blacks didn't count as a full person? It actually had to do with eliminating slavery. If blacks counted as a whole person, then congressmen from the southern states would severely outnumber those from northern states (according to the population) and there is no way in hell they would have abolished slavery. The founders were already working to try to end slavery when the document was written.



As for our resident foreigners, you have a right to your own opinion just like you have the right to go back home if it sucks so bad here. Apparently there is at least 1 good reason why you decided to make the USA your place of residence.[/quote]



Agreed 100%. And if they aren't here, stay where they are.
 

E Runs

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[quote name="winos5"]Before the ink was dry on the original document would be my guess. Politics and struggles for power are hardly a modern concept.[/quote]

Spot on! And lest we forget only white, landowning males could vote as well.



It's all bullshit, and it's bad for ya.
 

Spunky Porkstacker

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[quote name="jaxhawksfan"]Wino I agree



STH do you have any idea why blacks didn't count as a full person? It actually had to do with eliminating slavery. If blacks counted as a whole person, then congressmen from the southern states would severely outnumber those from northern states (according to the population) and there is no way in hell they would have abolished slavery. The founders were already working to try to end slavery when the document was written.



As for our resident foreigners, you have a right to your own opinion just like you have the right to go back home if it sucks so bad here. Apparently there is at least 1 good reason why you decided to make the USA your place of residence.[/quote]

Thank You Very Much :clap:
 

BiscuitintheBasket

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Want to get an idea of what the founders of this nation intended for how the gov't and general society was to look like, read the classics and the philosophers of that time. Almost all of the players that wrote the constitution quotes some or many classics and/or reference philosophers in their own writings.



Ultimately, if the true intent was to be a republic with the general populace to have a partial say, then the structure began to crack when the "two party system" took root; and completely broke when the representatives of the people started to vote party lines.



Something forgotten?

Something ignored?

Something is missing,

Something we don't have anymore

 

MassHavoc

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[quote name="supraman"]So I pose this question basically for academic debate. When and Why did this country start towards its march away from the the Constitution and the freedoms it guaranteed. Take for example the 2nd Amendment issue, if our government honored the Constitution it is a moot issue, people have the right to bear arms. PERIOD.



Now I'll admit I've never been big into politics until Obama hit the scene. Yes I voted for him and yes I made a mistake. but for me the good thing that came out of it was my interest in politics and the government. I'm a big believer in Ron Paul and the majority of his views (not all but most) and I look at the Constitution and then to today's government and it breaks my heart. I feel that if we still strictly following the Constitution that we would be the best nation in the world by far (yes we are still probably the best but we could be better).[/quote]

I believe it was 2 weeks ago last Tuesday at about 3:47am.
 

sth

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I have a history degree so I know. But the Constitution had to be Amended to change slavery. And amended to allow women to vote and many other things. The founding fathers put in amendments to allow things to change because they knew things had to change.
 

Ton

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That gov't that is best that governs least - Thomas Jefferson



The basics of the constitution have basically been thrown out the window without a care. Freedoms are slowly being taken away from the American people and most don't even realize it.



Hell anyone get a ticket in the mail for "blowing" a red light even if you actually didn't? You can go downtown and try and fight it but you know what the judge will tell you? "Everyone who is here for the camera tickets you can PAY at ---> those kiosks"



The constitution would slap him in the face.
 

Guest

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[quote name="sth"]I have a history degree so I know. But the Constitution had to be Amended to change slavery. And amended to allow women to vote and many other things. The founding fathers put in amendments to allow things to change because they knew things had to change.[/quote]





They also wrote the 9th Amendment which is supposed to protect everything else. Unfortunately through out history the Court has discounted the 9th when it can.
 

E Runs

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Pigs Deliver Lesson In Freedom - John Kass:



Every Fourth of July we Americans celebrate our liberty and our independence from an oppressive, overreaching government.



We do this through wonderful, time-honored rituals.



We wave the flag. We shoot off fireworks. We barbecue and eat watermelon in the shade. Someone brings out a radio or a tiny TV and soon we're enjoying baseball (or the World Cup).



We drink some beer and the kids gather round and sit upon the grass and listen to our stories. But few, if any of us, tell children of the most important Independence Day story of all:



How to Catch Wild Pigs.



The Americans who won independence with their blood and sacrifice didn't have to tell their kids how to catch wild pigs. They knew. Their kids knew.



But these days, especially now, our children need to know. But this sort of thing won't be taught in school. It's too subversive.



If you're one of these people who don't want to know how to catch wild pigs, you should stop reading this immediately. You might be a vegetarian. Or it might upset you for other reasons.



But the wild pigs have been on my mind lately, with federal government growing and growing. In the last decade, under a Republican and then a Democrat in the White House, the federal authority has grown beyond imagining.



Which brings me back to the story of the feral pigs.



I first read about it on the Internet a few years ago by an unknown author who deserves the thanks of every American. And I used the idea at the tail end of a column about the politics of the baby boomers.



When they were young, the boomers smoked pot in the streets, listened to Dylan and dreamed of taking great risks. But now they're old, and with age comes fear and it's become easier to yearn for the embrace of the federal leviathan.



Young people — I'm talking about teenagers like my sons — have no understanding of how things were before the cameras were everywhere, before the president ran the banks and the automobile industry and just about everything else.



So this Fourth of July, I'm going to tell my boys my own version of how to catch wild pigs.



Wild pigs are crafty creatures. They live free in the wilderness. They're cunning, and they're quick. And they have tusks. So they're dangerous.



When my father fought the Nazis in Albania during World War II, the Greek Army starved in those hard winter mountains. Theirs wasn't the hunger of missing a breakfast or a snack. They missed days and days of breakfasts, lunches and dinners while fighting battles in the cold.



One morning, another soldier spotted some boar tracks in the snow. He took a pack mule and a rifle, promising the guys he'd be back by sunset with dinner.



They found the soldier three days later, frozen solid, all but cut in half by the tusks. The giant boar was dead. The mule was dead.



They ate the boar and the mule — starving armies don't waste good meat — but nobody tracked wild pigs after that.



Even so, pork is a scrumptious and traditional Fourth of July food as we celebrate American freedom and liberty, serving barbecue on patriotic red, white and blue paper plates.



The thing is, if you want to catch wild pigs, please don't try to chase them down. They'll get angry. You might get hurt.



Don't track them like some hunter. Use your head, like a crafty Washington politician or bureaucrat.



Don't pursue them.



Instead, bribe them. With corn.



I'm told that if you just pour a few buckets of corn on the ground, sooner or later, the wild pigs will come trotting through the woods.



First, they'll sniff the corn and run away. Eventually, though, they'll find it delicious. The best part is that they'll tell all their friends. Soon you'll have a whole herd of them scarfing what they think is free corn.



Then, put up one side of strong fence. Naturally, the wild pigs will run away. But soon, they'll drift back to the corn.



A few weeks later, put up the second length of fence. They'll disappear, but they'll return, because they're used to the program. Then the third side. But keep spreading that corn. It's part of their routine.



Finally, it's time to put up the fourth side of the fence, the business side, the side with a gate.



Just keep adding corn, and soon they'll trot through the woods and through the gate. All you have to do is close the door.



They won't even notice they've been caught. That's when you begin the process of domestication.



The problem is that a plain fence can be so boring. So let's dress it up, say with a little placard over the gate. Perhaps we should inscribe fancy words on it, too.



What comes to mind is an expression often attributed to a wise Frenchman named Alexis de Tocqueville, who wrote about the American experiment with freedom and liberty after it began more than 200 years ago.



No matter who said these words first, they're perfect for the plaque on our fence. Here goes:



"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."



Happy Independence Day.
 

BiscuitintheBasket

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Analysis confirms "subjects-citizens" change in Declaration by Jefferson



http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/07/02/an ... =allsearch



[quote name="Emanuella Grinberg"]

Would the spirit of the Declaration of Independence have been any different if it referred to Americans as "subjects" instead of "citizens?"



Thomas Jefferson apparently thought so, and recent analysis of a rough draft of the Declaration has confirmed speculation that he considered both before settling on "citizens."



Recent hyperspectral imaging by scientists in the Library of Congress' Preservation Research and Testing Division performed on Jefferson’s rough draft shows he originally wrote the phrase "our fellow subjects." But he apparently changed his mind and heavily scrawled over the word "subjects" was the word "citizens."



"The correction seems to illuminate an important moment for Jefferson and for a nation on the eve of breaking from monarchical rule - a moment when he reconsidered his choice of words and articulated the recognition that the people of the fledgling United States of America were no longer subjects of any nation, but citizens of an emerging democracy," the Library of Congress said.



Hyperspectral imaging is the process of taking digital photos of an object using distinct portions of the visible and non-visible light spectrum, revealing what previously could not be seen by the human eye, according to the Library of Congress.



The correction occurs in the portion of the declaration that deals with U.S. grievances against King George III's incitement of "treasonable insurrections," according to the Library of Congress. The specific sentence is is not in the final draft, but a similar phrase stuck, and the word "citizens" is used elsewhere in the final document.



The word correction has been suspected for some time by scholars, according to the LOC. In "The Papers of Thomas Jefferson, Volume 1: 1760-1776," Julian P. Boyd wrote "TJ originally wrote ‘fellow-subjects,’ copying the term from the corresponding passage in the first page of the First Draft of the Virginia Constitution; then, while the ink was still wet on the ‘Rough draught’ he expunged or erased ‘subjects’ and wrote ‘citizens’ over it."

[/quote]
 

Maiden

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[quote name="jaxhawksfan"]Wino I agree



STH do you have any idea why blacks didn't count as a full person? It actually had to do with eliminating slavery. If blacks counted as a whole person, then congressmen from the southern states would severely outnumber those from northern states (according to the population) and there is no way in hell they would have abolished slavery. The founders were already working to try to end slavery when the document was written.



As for our resident foreigners, you have a right to your own opinion just like you have the right to go back home if it sucks so bad here. Apparently there is at least 1 good reason why you decided to make the USA your place of residence.[/quote]



I would like to add to our resident American residents that if you feel this country sucks so bad find a new country that has the beliefs and values you so desire. Don't try and change the greatest country in the world to fit your wants and needs.
 

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