2009 GM Survey

[houheffna]

I looked at the survey and here are the important points...

1. John Salmons got a little bit of love.
2. John Salmons got more love than who he replaced.
3. Message to Bulls fans who miss BG from NBA GMs....Dont miss him..
4. Houheffna agrees with NBA GMs...have a nice day!!!

http://www.nba.com/news/features/gmsurvey.predictions/index.html

 

[jsain360]

The predictions were spot on IMO, but I think the Spurs will win the championship this season, as Duncan and Manu make their last run for rings, a lot of people are handing the Lakers another title, but if the Spurs can stay healthy, they are my pick, adding R-Jeff, Dice, and Blair are huge additions, they have the talent to over take the Lakers.

 

[theCHI_Life84]

one question i thought would have been interesting to ask:

which injured player that missed most of last season will make the biggest comeback?

 

[pinkizdead]

What about the gm predictions from last year? i think i remember most of them being more than a bit off.

 

[??? ??????]

jsain360 wrote:

The predictions were spot on IMO, but I think the Spurs will win the championship this season, as Duncan and Manu make their last run for rings, a lot of people are handing the Lakers another title, but if the Spurs can stay healthy, they are my pick, adding R-Jeff, Dice, and Blair are huge additions, they have the talent to over take the Lakers.

Spurs are my pick too, as long as they stay healthy. I think it will be Duncan and Manu's last run at the championship (barring some mauling of another team in a trade (see Gasol), or them finding another sleeper pick late in the first/second round (see Parker/Ginobili).

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

I looked at the survey and here are the important points...

1. John Salmons got a little bit of love.
2. John Salmons got more love than who he replaced.
3. Message to Bulls fans who miss BG from NBA GMs....Dont miss him..
4. Houheffna agrees with NBA GMs...have a nice day!!!

http://www.nba.com/news/features/gmsurvey.predictions/index.html

Based on what? That GMs didn't give Ben Gordon a lot of votes for best offseason move or most underrated move? Notice that most of the votes went to players that went to title contenders, Artest, Shaq, Jefferson. Something tells me if Gordon signed a below market deal (like Artest did) with a title contender, he'd have more votes than he got.

I agree with most GMs that the Lakers will beat the Celtics in the Finals.

But john Salmons as one of the best on the ball defenders in the league? I don't know, apparently there's a GM that's a big John Salmons fan because 3.6% of 30 GMs is 1.08 GMs.

 

[houheffna]

Well, what about best pure shooter? Kapono, Joe Johnson, Kyle Korver (Kapono?) but no love for BG? Just found it interesting.

As far as Salmons, Hinrich should have gotten that vote if any Bull should have gotten it. But Salmons gets after it, actually kept Pierce from runnin' wild...with a pulled groin. Salmons is a good player. And a suitable replacement for the time being. Anyway, isn't that a coincidence though man? No love for BG, from actual paid experts....

 

[??? ??????]

houheffna wrote:

Well, what about best pure shooter? Kapono, Joe Johnson, Kyle Korver (Kapono?) but no love for BG? Just found it interesting.

As far as Salmons, Hinrich should have gotten that vote if any Bull should have gotten it. But Salmons gets after it, actually kept Pierce from runnin' wild...with a pulled groin. Salmons is a good player. And a suitable replacement for the time being. Anyway, isn't that a coincidence though man? No love for BG, from actual paid experts....

Perhaps this survey could be used as proof that NBA GM's are collectively stupid then? Record for most three pointers in the first five years of a career. I'll take those results over what some NBA GM's say.

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

Well, what about best pure shooter? Kapono, Joe Johnson, Kyle Korver (Kapono?) but no love for BG? Just found it interesting.

As far as Salmons, Hinrich should have gotten that vote if any Bull should have gotten it. But Salmons gets after it, actually kept Pierce from runnin' wild...with a pulled groin. Salmons is a good player. And a suitable replacement for the time being. Anyway, isn't that a coincidence though man? No love for BG, from actual paid experts....

If I was voting for best pure shooter I wouldn't have voted for Joe Johnson or Kapono or BG. My vote to Ray Allen there. But a guy can be a great pure shooter and be a role player too. So I don't know if that's a knock on BG. Maybe that "streak shooter" myth about BG hurt him in that one.

I agree about Salmons, he played good D vs. Pierce. I'm not knocking him, but I don't think he's the best on the ball defender in the league.

And I'm sure a lot of these GM didn't spend much time with this. It was a NBA.com poll, I'm sure some of them had their assistants fill it out. Just like the college coaches do for their preseason teams. Remember that whole Tim Tebow not getting every SEC coach 1st place vote for first-team QB? It was Steve Spurrier an he said the mistake happened because the SID filled it out for him.

And like you said, if anyone on the Bulls gets the vote for best defender, it would be Kirk Hinrich. With all that said, I hope Salmons proves that GM right.

 

[houheffna]

Perhaps this survey could be used as proof that NBA GM's are collectively stupid then? Record for most three pointers in the first five years of a career. I'll take those results over what some NBA GM's say.

The point I am making is that many of you on this forum overrate BG's value. So much so that it clouds your vision. I shouldn't have to explain why Lamar Odom is a better basketball player than Gordon is. That should be common knowledge. Let alone explaining why Joe Johnson (who can shoot very well by the way) is a better shooting guard or Kevin Martin's abilities and being analogous to Gordon's when concerning the uniqueness of their talents.

And once again, if people depend solely on stats, you don't need scouts or GMs....

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

Perhaps this survey could be used as proof that NBA GM's are collectively stupid then? Record for most three pointers in the first five years of a career. I'll take those results over what some NBA GM's say.

The point I am making is that many of you on this forum overrate BG's value. So much so that it clouds your vision. I shouldn't have to explain why Lamar Odom is a better basketball player than Gordon is. That should be common knowledge. Let alone explaining why Joe Johnson (who can shoot very well by the way) is a better shooting guard or Kevin Martin's abilities and being analogous to Gordon's when concerning the uniqueness of their talents.

And once again, if people depend solely on stats, you don't need scouts or GMs....

I don't agree that Lamar Odom is better than Ben Gordon. What the hell has Lamar Odom ever done? The guy was non-existent in the 2008 NBA Finals and hasn't come close to living up to his potential at the 4th pick in the 99 draft.
I have no recollection of Lamar Odom taking over a game or hitting any big shots in his career. He's been traded a few times and no one seemed too interested in him this offseason. If he was such a prize you'd think he would have been signed right away. But he was one of the last big free agents to sign.

What makes Odom better than Gordon? He gets more rebounds? He should, he's 6'10.

I like Joe Johnson and we agree on him. I've seen Joe Johnson lead a team and hit big shots. But you can't tell me Odom is better than BG, no way. What are you basing it on, just pure skills? As if this were a basketball clinic and we were rating all of their abilities?
Based on that Tim Duncan is a far more skilled player than Shaq in my opinion, but if I had my choice between the two of them in their prime, I'm taking Shaq.
When it comes to career achievements, it's not close, Odom has underachieved. Sure he was on a title team, but if Gordon played for the Lakers he'd have a ring too. Lamar was along for the ride.

You think we overrate BG, but yo think Odom is better. I can't buy that one.

 

[houheffna]

Who you would take is who you would take. Yes, I am basing it on skill, that is my fault. Maybe that is because I am used to watching a team that had the best player in the league who happened to best fundamentally in his time also in Michael Jordan.

Prime example of your point. Kobe is a better player fundamentally but Jordan is a better player. Point taken. Neither Odom or Gordon are top 25 players so it doesn't really matter, that argument is futile.

So to be better than Gordon you have to "lead a team". I don't get that, lead a team where, he never led the team anywhere. He was part of a core group that led the team, but he didn't lead the team anywhere, the team didn't go anywhere. Hinrich led nobody, neither did Deng. They were all part of a core that didn't accomplish that much....

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

Who you would take is who you would take. Yes, I am basing it on skill, that is my fault. Maybe that is because I am used to watching a team that had the best player in the league who happened to best fundamentally in his time also in Michael Jordan.

Prime example of your point. Kobe is a better player fundamentally but Jordan is a better player. Point taken. Neither Odom or Gordon are top 25 players so it doesn't really matter, that argument is futile.

So to be better than Gordon you have to "lead a team". I don't get that, lead a team where, he never led the team anywhere. He was part of a core group that led the team, but he didn't lead the team anywhere, the team didn't go anywhere. Hinrich led nobody, neither did Deng. They were all part of a core that didn't accomplish that much....

Gordon has had moments, big moments, whether it's game-winning shots, game-tying shots during key times in games. Regular season and playoffs.

Ben Gordon's clutchness in Game 4 against Boston, while injured, is a marquee moment in his career. Or even his Game 2 shootout with Ray Allen. Sure, the Bulls lost the game, but we don't discredit Chuck Person's performance when he went head-to-head with Larry Bird in the 1991 first round. That was a marquee moment. Lamar Odom hasn't had any moment.

The Bulls won 49 game and went to the second round, Ben Gordon was a key figure in that. What did they accomplish at the end of the day, a second-round exit. But I guess then we could turn the argument on Joe Johnson and say he has achieved the same amount as Gordon. Second round exit. I think he went to the WCF with the Suns in 05 but that was being the 4th, maybe 5th option on that team.

If you want to say Lamar Odom has more basketball skills, then I'd agree. But I'm looking at achievements, things people will remember, marquee moments. Along with stats. I don't think Odom compares to Gordon. I guess to make it simple, Gordon is better at his position than Odom is at his in my opinion.

as for the Kobe vs. Jordan. In what areas do you think Kobe is more fundamentally sound?

 

[houheffna]

Kobe is a better long-range shooter and ballhandler. Two paramount skills for a shooting guard.

If you want to look at big moments, then look at Salmons in game 6 of the same series. He also showed that he can play with the big boys, justifies even more BG's leaving. I don't get so caught up in those moments that I don't see the big picture. That is all perception, one of my friends said that a lot of Gordon's heroics make up for the fact that he is a poor man on defender. That is his way of looking at it.

So who is better, Pippen or Kukoc? Kukoc had better moments, never had a problem getting off of his ass in crunchtime. Kukoc had the ability to deliver, to the point that Phil trusted him more than Pippen. Yet I will take Pippen, who played Robin to Jordan's Batman, but his fundamental abilities caused more problems than Kukoc's clutch abilities. Odom causes defenses more problems than Gordon does from beginning to the end of a game. That is why I believe he is a better player. And Odom has shown some awareness defensively, he can play on the floor and in the post on both sides of the court. I would rather have Odom personally, but that's me. As far as achievements, Odom has a championship, and he played a critical role on that team. He was the third option on a championship team and Phil Jackson said constantly that when Odom is going strong, no one could beat them. Wake me up when Gordon makes it past the 2nd round of the playoffs...

 

[Dpauley23]

Houheffna you have to be one of the biggest jokes on this forum. Wake me up when Gordon gets past second round? Why don't you wake me up once Gordon get legit superstar next to him. How many times did Odom get past 1 round without one top 3 players in the game? Only one year with a up and coming star in Dwyane Wade. While Odom might be a better defensive player considering he only plays defense for about 3 times a game it seems like Gordon would be better defender as he tries on every single play

 

[houheffna]

What I have said consistently is that Gordon/Deng/Hinrich are all decent players. All of them. No one player from that group led the team, it was a core of players that lead the team. Odom can play defense, like most players he is lazy about it, but Phil has said time and time again that Odom is integral to the team's success. Why? Because he is very talented, granted, the Odom as Scottie Pippen thing didn't work. His inconsistency is why he is not a legitimate star in this league, but when he plays ball, the Lakers are unbeatable. People say BG would be third option on a championship team...not that one. Odom has that locked down, playing only half as good as he could. MY OPINION is Gordon will not be missed after some games are played and some roles are refined on this team. That will take a little time, but it will happen. Do I think he should be booed when he comes back...not really, no. Do I think he was victimized by the Bulls? No. Do I think he victimized the Bulls? No. Rose tried to play defense on every single play. I don't give A's for effort. I give A's for effectiveness.

And by the way dude, quit acting like a little bitch. Grow up. Your idiocy is not missed when you are gone. Neither is your ass kissing.

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

Kobe is a better long-range shooter and ballhandler. Two paramount skills for a shooting guard.

If you want to look at big moments, then look at Salmons in game 6 of the same series. He also showed that he can play with the big boys, justifies even more BG's leaving. I don't get so caught up in those moments that I don't see the big picture. That is all perception, one of my friends said that a lot of Gordon's heroics make up for the fact that he is a poor man on defender. That is his way of looking at it.

So who is better, Pippen or Kukoc? Kukoc had better moments, never had a problem getting off of his ass in crunchtime. Kukoc had the ability to deliver, to the point that Phil trusted him more than Pippen. Yet I will take Pippen, who played Robin to Jordan's Batman, but his fundamental abilities caused more problems than Kukoc's clutch abilities. Odom causes defenses more problems than Gordon does from beginning to the end of a game. That is why I believe he is a better player. And Odom has shown some awareness defensively, he can play on the floor and in the post on both sides of the court. I would rather have Odom personally, but that's me. As far as achievements, Odom has a championship, and he played a critical role on that team. He was the third option on a championship team and Phil Jackson said constantly that when Odom is going strong, no one could beat them. Wake me up when Gordon makes it past the 2nd round of the playoffs...

Yeah, John Salmons had a great Game 6. but you comparing 1 game from a guy who played a half season with the Bulls to Ben Gordon's 5-year career. You can't compare it. Gordon has had big moments for the Bulls that we will remember. What is Lamar Odom remembered for? Nothing. He's done nothing in his career.

He won a title on a team with the best player in the league and an all-star PF/C. If Ben Gordon was on the Lakers he'd have a ring too. So you can't say just because Lamar Odom has a title he's more accomplished. When Lamar Odom was expected to carry a team, or be a focal point, that team went nowhere. Ben Gordon on the other hand was the main guy on a team that won 49 games and 47. So in that respect Gordon has accomplished more.

And you don't need to say Gordon isn't a #1 guy or that you;ll never win a title with Gordon as your #1. I know that, and I never claimed that Gordon was a #1 guy. But he was in the situation, and was more successful than Lamar Odom.

And the Pippen/Kukoc comparison is a terrible example. So in that comparison Pippen is Odom and Kukoc is Gordon right? I would never argue that Kukoc is better than Pippen because Pippen is clearly the better player, with accomplishments. Odom is not better than Gordon so that's not a good example. Scottie Pippen was the reason the Bulls won, Toni Kukoc is also a reason the Bulls won. Ben Gordon is the reason the Bulls won. Has Lamar Odom ever been the reason a team has won? No.

Your trying to make my argument simplistic. I'm not saying because a guy has hit game-winning shots that he's a better player. That would be like me saying Steve Kerr is better than Kirk Hinrich because he hit a big shot, I'm not saying that. You still have to have the production to go along with it. Ben Gordon has been more productive than Lamar Odom in his career, has had more clutch moments than Odom and has accomplished more as a main guy on a team than Lamar Odom. You can say Odom won a title but he wasn't the reason the Lakers won. Lamar Odom also has more titles than a lot of guys.

Gordon also causes defenses just as many problems as Odom if not more. And since Gordon is a more consistent player than Odom, that makes it even more true. I wonder how Gordon would do if opposing defenses had to worry about Kobe and Gasol?

 

[houheffna]

Ben Gordon is the reason the Bulls won. Has Lamar Odom ever been the reason a team has won? No.

You make it seem as if Ben Gordon was the sole reason the Bulls won, he helped the Bulls win, just as Odom helped the Lakers win. You shouldn't devalue Odom. To say that Odom has done nothing in his career is overboard. He is a good player. Since when is being the 3rd option (something that Gordon would'nt be on that team) on a championship team such a bad thing? Gordon's role on the Lakers? Vinnie Johnson. As I have said before, Phil Jackson has made it plain that the Lakers cannot win without Odom as the team was structured. So I don't buy your argument that Gordon was the reason the team won, again, it was a core of young players, of equal value, who all contributed to the win, none were allstars, none were franchise players. Saying Gordon is THE reason the Bulls won is simply not true. What would Gordon do with Gasol and Kobe, he would not be as productive. And more than likely he would be coming off the bench, not starting. The Lakers need Odom more than they would ever need Gordon. The Lakers have multiple players in their backcourt that can hit an open shot. And those guys played defense. And with a guy like Kobe, Gordon is the least of your concerns. When Odom is balling, he is more valuable than Gordon, he can do more things, when Gordon is not scoring, or his shot is off, he holds no value. That is not the case with Odom. You are into Gordon's clutch play, that is nice, but Odom over 48 minutes does more for your team. Gordon had a good career in Chicago, helped, I emphasize HELPED the team get into the playoffs, he never played on a contender. He is not a franchise player, he will never be a franchise player. He is an undersized shooting guard with and exceptional ability to score. But he is not Allen Iverson at 26. Believe that.

Odom is just better at basketball. Period. And that's the bottom line because Houheffna said so...

 

[clonetrooper264]

Who said Gordon was franchise player? I certainly don't think he is. To me, he is a fringe all star, an elite shooter and scorer, and a piece that could be invaluable to this team with the right pieces. To say that his role on a championship team would be that of Vinnie Johnson is probably downplaying Gordon's skill. He is definitely better than Johnson. Gordon IMO can be a 3rd option for sure on a championship team.

 

[pinkizdead]

odom is aloof half the time. he comes in every other play. jackson says odom is intrigual to get him into the game. If he's so damn amazing, why didnt kobe demand his return? Why isnt he starting?

gordon has a higher ppg, a higher shooting percentage, a higher 3p shooting percentage. he's more consistent. he's more clutch. He's a shooting guard. he's not going ot get the same number of rebounds and blocks that odom is. In terms of scoring, he's a far better scorrer than odom. If you want to compare their defense and ball handling skill, odom might be slightly better. Keep in mind you're comparing a 6 10 point forward to a 6 3 shooting guard. i'd rather have gordon