2011 Sox Had 5 Starters With Negative WAR

[Uman85]

Much obliged, though I fake most of it.

Don't discredit yourself. You're a Sox fan.

 

[#19]

Wins, losses, ERA, WHIP, ERA+

A host of statistics, not cherry picking WAR and using it as it alone has no solid base.

You just named 5 stats for pitchers.

Name 1 stat better than WAR for comparing players and getting a relative worth.

 

[nwfisch]

You just named 5 stats for pitchers.

Name 1 stat better than WAR for comparing players and getting a relative worth.

Why would I pick one stat?

For sake of argument, I'll pick WHIP.

It's silly to cherry pick one metric, which has flawed calculations and use it to determine a pitchers worth, when there are many more available than WAR.

 

[nwfisch]

I think WAR is an OK metric, but I just wouldn't use that alone in making a case for something (i.e. Soriano being a top 10 player in 2007, Soto being the best catcher in baseball)

It seems the people in this forum have a better grip on what WAR is good for. WAR provides a nice snapshot, but it doesn't really tell the whole story, which is why I prefer to use many other stats to determine a player's worth.

 

[SaberSox]

I think WAR is an OK metric, but I just wouldn't use that alone in making a case for something (i.e. Soriano being a top 10 player in 2007, Soto being the best catcher in baseball)

It seems the people in this forum have a better grip on what WAR is good for. WAR provides a nice snapshot, but it doesn't really tell the whole story, which is why I prefer to use many other stats to determine a player's worth.

Obviously, using more than one metric to evaluate a player is ideal. However, WAR is a pretty good metric that tries to encompass a player's total value in a single stat.

My point being, if someone were to ask me, "If you had to pick one stat to determine player value what would it be?" I'd say WAR.

 

[FirstTimer]

Pitchers WAR is hilariously bad.

You should just completely disregard it.

 

[FirstTimer]

Wins and losses have almost nothing to do with a pitcher's value. Wins are so very much dependent on the offense and the defense behind the pitcher.

Do you think a pitcher who goes 8 innings and loses 1-0 had a bad outing? Yet they don't get a W. Quality Starts is a much better valuation of a pitcher, regardless if you agree with how it's measured nor not.

Strawman. Most times bad beats and shitty wins balance out.

Also on to this, there's a reason why typically pitchers would lead the league in wins are usually the elite. Sure you will have Rick Hellings and Ben Sheet exceptions but for the most part pitchers who win a lot of games are typically pretty damn good. Pitchers who lose a lot are usually pretty fucking bad.

 

[#19]

Why would I pick one stat?

For sake of argument, I'll pick WHIP.

It's silly to cherry pick one metric, which has flawed calculations and use it to determine a pitchers worth, when there are many more available than WAR.

The reason is because I questioned what one statistic by itself is better than WAR when looking at a player's production? And when I questioned your criticism and asked for what's better you respond by listing 5 different stats. Besides, if you go back and look, I wrote that every stat alone sucks for evaluating.

Do you really think that WHIP is a better evaluative tool than WAR? I would counter by saying a pitcher with high strikeouts can overcome a high WHIP.

UMan- how is WAR miscalculated? What are your specific criticisms of WAR? Same for you Firsttimer.

 

[nwfisch]

The reason is because I questioned what one statistic by itself is better than WAR when looking at a player's production? And when I questioned your criticism and asked for what's better you respond by listing 5 different stats. Besides, if you go back and look, I wrote that every stat alone sucks for evaluating.

Do you really think that WHIP is a better evaluative tool than WAR? I would counter by saying a pitcher with high strikeouts can overcome a high WHIP.

nwfisch- how is WAR miscalculated? What are your specific criticisms of WAR? Same for you Firsttimer.

And I'd counter by saying WAR isn't real.
What is a replacement level player? One can't just remove a player and replace him with the same WAR and get the same result.

I think every other tool besides WAR is better. WAR provides a snapshot, there is no way one could say that Carlos Marmol was the best reliever in 2010 based on this link.
WAR | FanGraphs Sabermetrics Library

It's not standardized.

Any metric that says Carlos Marmol was the best reliever in any year, I can't take seriously.

 

[FirstTimer]

UMan- how is WAR miscalculated?

Not his point.

Try again.

Same for you Firsttimer.

You do realize that pitchers WAR is a joke right?

Please review how pitchers WAR is calculated. Then come back.

http://www.patrickfloodblog.com/2010/07/16/war-problems-part-two/

k.

Thanks.

LOL at sabreheads loving WAR.

What a joke.
Thanks.

 

[#19]

And I'd counter by saying WAR isn't real.
What is a replacement level player? One can't just remove a player and replace him with the same WAR and get the same result.

I think every other tool besides WAR is better. WAR provides a snapshot, there is no way one could say that Carlos Marmol was the best reliever in 2010 based on this link.
WAR | FanGraphs Sabermetrics Library

It's not standardized.

Any metric that says Carlos Marmol was the best reliever in any year, I can't take seriously.

I'm not sure about Marmol. I know he had a historically high K/IP, 1 HR in 77 IP, and a FIP of 2.

Besides, if your only argument is Marmol then I am not convinced.

And what is hard to understand about a replacement level player? I understand criticism of it being a little high or low but if it is applied equally isn't using WAR for comparison still valid? (The answer is yes.)

 

[FirstTimer]

I'm not sure about Marmol. I know he had a historically high K/IP, 1 HR in 77 IP, and a FIP of 2.

Besides, if your only argument is Marmol then I am not convinced.

And what is hard to understand about a replacement level player? I understand criticism of it being a little high or low but if it is applied equally isn't using WAR for comparison still valid? (The answer is yes.)

Gotta love people thinking subjectively figured stats are the best way to evaluate players..yet the eye test sucks!

 

[nickofypres]

Wins, losses, ERA, WHIP, ERA+

A host of statistics, not cherry picking WAR and using it as it alone has no solid base.

Solid.

Personally, I don't use wins or losses.

I use WHIP, BABIP, FIP and ERA.

The first three used together tell you the whole underlining story, IMO. But, as many as said, you can't just cherry pick one.

 

[#19]

Not his point.

Try again.



You do realize that pitchers WAR is a joke right?

Please review how pitchers WAR is calculated. Then come back.

WAR problems: Part Two | Patrick Flood

k.

Thanks.

LOL at sabreheads loving WAR.

What a joke.
Thanks.

No thanks.

 

[#19]

Gotta love people thinking subjectively figured stats are the best way to evaluate players..yet the eye test sucks!

Who said the eye test sucks?

 

[FirstTimer]

No thanks.

Go ahead and bury your head in the sand then and continue being ignorant on the issue.

 

[nwfisch]

Solid.

Personally, I don't use wins or losses.

I use WHIP, BABIP, FIP and ERA.

The first three used together tell you the whole underlining story, IMO. But, as many as said, you can't just cherry pick one.

 

[#19]

Go ahead and bury your head in the sand then and continue being ignorant on the issue.

You post your links and I'll post mine?

What is that?

You find some blog post that you like and you think it is the definitive answer?
C'mon. (maybe I should accompany this post with a smarmy smilies for effect).

 

[nwfisch]

You post your links and I'll post mine?

What is that?

You find some blog post that you like and you think it is the definitive answer?
C'mon. (maybe I should accompany this post with a smarmy smilies for effect).

Major League Leaderboards

How can Josh Johnson's effort be more valuable than Felix Hernandez's despite pitching 65 less innings?

 

[FirstTimer]

You post your links and I'll post mine?

Obviously didn't read link.

Ignorant.

You find some blog post that you like and you think it is the definitive answer?

You asked for my issues with WAR. That article lays it out pretty damn well concerning pitchers.

Want me to copy and paste it for you sugar tits?