2019/20 Roster and Camp Battles

anotheridiot

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Keith did have time on the #2 unit after Gus finally showed the coaching staff that Keith was obsolete a long time ago...but he still played the PP.

The problem is still that our team defense sucks the sweat off the balls of a brass monkey--and it will be so until they prove different. We can't really run a 4th FWD like Sharp because we don't have a 4th FWD like Sharp. Even Toews' D was completely milquetoast last season; and he was probably the best defensive FWD we had. His 2019 defensive year was not as good as Sharp's D, much less his pre-2016 level, much less Hossa's. As bad as the D was last year, most of the guys we iced on D were better defensively than any of the FWDs we iced (with the exception of Gus...who was a 13th FWD), so any of them at the PP blueline would give the goalies better breathing room that watching one of the FWDs screw up coverage. That is a factor--a shortie can suck any momentum right out of the team.

I'd much rather see what some of the incumbent D-men can do as a PP blueliner before trying a FWD there.

That is who I am trying to remember playing that point. Hossa, Sharp, was waiting for McNeil. I would almost think Toews could handle it, but his money is made at the net, but if Shaw or Jewels get on pp with him then the net front would be handled.
 

LordKOTL

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That is who I am trying to remember playing that point. Hossa, Sharp, was waiting for McNeil. I would almost think Toews could handle it, but his money is made at the net, but if Shaw or Jewels get on pp with him then the net front would be handled.
They also have to be effective there. I seem to recall Shaw just not having the size to be as-effective as Toews or Bickell--much less Buff.

I'd think at this point of his career the only way you move Toews anywhere on the PP is if he starts sucking in his assigned position. He doesn't. I also think the 'hawks can't get away with a 4-FWD situation on the PP until they get at least one guy back there who's proven good enough at defense that he can muck up an odd-man rush enough to give Crawford/Lehner a fighting chance. So far we don't really have that--as you mention Keith/Seabs are geriatric and Toews is better used at the net.

Now, if some of our off-season acquisitions turn out to be more useful defensively than a ****-flavored lollipop, can get back on the backcheck, and be useful on the PP...then maybe we'll see the return of the 4-FWD PP unit, but honestly unless JC was going to abandon all D and throw Crawford/Lehner to the wolves once again, I think we'll stick with last year's plan.
 

Raskolnikov

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Shaw isn't big enough to hang around in there, but I remember him being the type that is effective crashing in at the right time to enhance chaos, quick to the puck with his stick, skilled at the tip shot, and clearly...just the timing savant with agitator style and quick hands...He stands in there to guide deflections I think, Kane and Cat are capable of the same but not as fearless unless its a big moment, imo. Shaw was impressive in his relentlessness which is why I thought it wouldn't last, but if anything he has just let his skills shine brighter by dialing back the crazy....he might be too good to keep off that top 6 role this time around, and with the obvious 2 holes there. I don't see how he doesn't take the Toews line, and allow Kane to wreck with Cat/strome....

Saad/Toews/Shaw....might be able to get it done, and Caggs-Dach-Smith would be fun.
then Entwhistle/Carpenter/Kampf
 

LordKOTL

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Shaw isn't big enough to hang around in there, but I remember him being the type that is effective crashing in at the right time to enhance chaos, quick to the puck with his stick, skilled at the tip shot, and clearly...just the timing savant with agitator style and quick hands...He stands in there to guide deflections I think, Kane and Cat are capable of the same but not as fearless unless its a big moment, imo. Shaw was impressive in his relentlessness which is why I thought it wouldn't last, but if anything he has just let his skills shine brighter by dialing back the crazy....he might be too good to keep off that top 6 role this time around, and with the obvious 2 holes there. I don't see how he doesn't take the Toews line, and allow Kane to wreck with Cat/strome....

Saad/Toews/Shaw....might be able to get it done, and Caggs-Dach-Smith would be fun.
then Entwhistle/Carpenter/Kampf
Time will tell. Keep in mind we got Sikura and Nylander--a pair of Stan's golden boys, who will probably get more leash than they deserve. I could easily see either of them taking Shaw out of a prime role so Stan can look like a genius.

Don't get me wrong, I love Shaw and the type of player he is, but when it comes down to it I don't think he ousts Toews in the netmouth role on the PP and frees him up for point-work. I think id anything he takes that role on the other PP line. However, against teams like Vegas with guys like Reaves, Shaw might be ragdolled in front of the net because, well, he ain't no Buff. But given the team's makeup unless one of the incoming D-men show that they have the PP moxie but also defensive capability, or unless Gus proves he can play defense, I think they stick with 2 D-men to keep Lehner & Crawford from getting PTSD.
 

Raskolnikov

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I don't know why I was talking a bunch of nonsense about Shaw, honestly I've just been drinking a bunch lately and don't remember half the shit I was writing or why. is the sad honest reason.

I can't tell you folks how many times I've sworn under my breath the last two years trying to fit lines together that work, are balanced, and at an NHL level...always a top 6 or two short or a mess of a bottom 6..

but not anymore. Shaw in particular is a guy that solves lines in more than one way, and then with the additions of Carpenter and Smith, who can win some face-offs from the wing and support more offensive minded centers like Strome or Dach...

this team finally has some glue guys along with the homegrown one Kampf.

I kinda like Sikura...just for me still unsure that his place on the team shouldn't have belonged to Hinostroza for the long haul. Hinostroza seems to have more of that Shaw wolverine burst when he smells a scoring chance for the offense, has a nack for bursting his energy and producing a shot for himself or someone else. From a spacing and corsi stand point I still see lots of potential in Sikura. He keeps things moving in positive hockey game winning directions, does all the little things...very polished player just so small and weak. I have played contact sports against Asians and they have elite pound for pound, strength to body mass ratio's. This makes them dominant in world gymnastics. I am sure Sikura is stronger than he looks, but he is going to have to figure out how to produce offensive firepower because on defense his limitation will be he is always a tiny gnat to be swatted away.

Let Bowman have a couple toys. Nylander isn't hurting anybody, the situation wasn't his fault, and he has an opportunity ahead of him to be deserving of the trade and pay the Hawks back in sweat and blood if he chooses and has the qualities to make it. Nylander and Perlini give the Hawks two big forwards that are different than what they were stock piling for years...I think the variety they have in the system currently is better. Its up to the last 2-3 pieces to fit with the top 7 or 8 guys...

Dach is ready to go, imo, if you start him this year he will get 10-15 goals and 20-30 assists, but Smith/Carp/Kampf can probably get that production easy at the spot, and if you keep his 5th contract year, he gets 20-25 goals, 40-50 assists, defends 200 feet and dominates space both directions. But Dach is a guy we presombably sign so is he worth holding back to cost control one extra year with that many questions ahead of Hawks anyway... Smith is a right winger who wins face-offs, and he or Carpenter would give you that option of supporting Dach in that singular way he is probably not ready for NHL.
 

anotheridiot

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We have just seen Shaw effective at the net, moreso because he just pisses defenders off and they are too busy cross checking him to be in position and watching the puck.

We all know after the 5 or whatever concussions, Toews stayed away from the front of the net, and he had a terrible year. To me that was the concussion rule they have kept following with anyone who gets their bell rung. Johnny had to play, he wanted to play, he was not in shape to play. I dont know how many pucks he was seeing for a while there, just like Crow. That is part of why you put some moving pieces in that position to keep Johnny healthy and maybe the quarterback role on the pp suits him better.

We just have been building, gotten to a point where there were a few jobs to win this year, and all openings were filled. I dont know what kind of trade value we will end up getting for Murphy if Bovquist demands a spot on this roster. Surely we need to take back that salary in a different player and who does he block?
 

Raskolnikov

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We have just seen Shaw effective at the net, moreso because he just pisses defenders off and they are too busy cross checking him to be in position and watching the puck.

We all know after the 5 or whatever concussions, Toews stayed away from the front of the net, and he had a terrible year. To me that was the concussion rule they have kept following with anyone who gets their bell rung. Johnny had to play, he wanted to play, he was not in shape to play. I dont know how many pucks he was seeing for a while there, just like Crow. That is part of why you put some moving pieces in that position to keep Johnny healthy and maybe the quarterback role on the pp suits him better.

We just have been building, gotten to a point where there were a few jobs to win this year, and all openings were filled. I dont know what kind of trade value we will end up getting for Murphy if Bovquist demands a spot on this roster. Surely we need to take back that salary in a different player and who does he block?

I am not as worried as you about the "beteran" blocking this year.

I think if a guy steps up on his own and demands an NHL roster spot with NHL level hockey, that it will be recognized, fairly battled for by other guys near that level, and won by even a modest .5 ppg stretch.

The spots are there to be won from Kampf/Carpenter/Nylander/Sikura....

Like if Kubalik comes in and scores 3 goals in pre-season...that chance will be created for him. Or if Dach dominates the floor space for 200 feet, and the team needs him...I think they can work him in.

The problem is just the sheer depth of borderline beterans kampf/carpenter/smith...to go with the guys who won't be moved saad/caggs/shaw...

and the timeline of draft picks knocking on the door but aren't really quite there...kucherov, entwhistle, hogan, Q2, Saarela1,


its only messy because we don't know who will step up yet...but it sure looks like somebody will and I think all we need is patience, they have intentionally gotten deeper and created this situation so we will have to see what they plan to do with it.
 

Raskolnikov

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In summation...

the beterans will require a certain level of play to make the cut. It will be a high level in 2019-20. If somebody wants to stand up and stand out I am confident a spot will be found for them.

Let them compete and the hockey gods will decide. (Rockford is going to have an interesting year)
 

LordKOTL

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See, I'm less worried about the betterens blocking anyone and more worried about Stan's guys blocking when betterens or rookies show more. He's done it before with Runblad--but then at least Q had the 'stache to not play him--I don't think Colition would leave a guy on the bench that gives Stan warm feelings in his hip pocket.

The cases of Sikura and Nylander bug me. Both haven't proven much if anything at the pro level. In Sikura's case he seems to be a Morin-type--tools but no toolbox. He can get possession but then he does smeg-all with it and that's a problem on the top lines. That may work on the bottom-6, and if he sticks there that's fine (ditto if he made strides this summer and is not an offensive black hole anymore), but if you got guys like Shaw, Like Caligula, or even say Entwhistle comes out of nowhere with some top-6 chemistry and outplays Sikura I don't trust JC/Stan to necessarily go with the better player and cut their losses.

Ditto with Nylander. Getting him was a major gamble and trying to recreate Strome. It could happen, but if what we've seen of him thus far is any indication my bet is at-best, he's a Kopecky-type--middle 6. Again, if there are guys better suited to top-6 duties I worry about Stan and JC giving him too long of a leash.

There is precedent for that and just about every GM/Coach wants to prove they're a better braintrust than the guy they replaced. But part of that is also recognizing as early as possible when stuff isn't working. I haven't seen that from either.
 

Raskolnikov

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I'm just not worried about the 10 guys who will fill 2-3 spots.

Is Dach ready? is Bovqist ready?

Which 1-2 guys step up and take 1-2 spots?

They might go to Nylander and Sikura but it hasn't happened yet, remind me when after they have been outplayed in pre-season and they take somebody's spot more deserving to get mad about it then.

For now I am confident the management had a direction, they largely went with moves improving their big picture, and they have a well stocked NHL hockey team ready to come out of the gates and play hard hockey with the skill level we have come to expect from the Kane led Hawks.

Season is going to be great.
 

anotheridiot

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I am not as worried as you about the "beteran" blocking this year.

I think if a guy steps up on his own and demands an NHL roster spot with NHL level hockey, that it will be recognized, fairly battled for by other guys near that level, and won by even a modest .5 ppg stretch.

The spots are there to be won from Kampf/Carpenter/Nylander/Sikura....

Like if Kubalik comes in and scores 3 goals in pre-season...that chance will be created for him. Or if Dach dominates the floor space for 200 feet, and the team needs him...I think they can work him in.

The problem is just the sheer depth of borderline beterans kampf/carpenter/smith...to go with the guys who won't be moved saad/caggs/shaw...

and the timeline of draft picks knocking on the door but aren't really quite there...kucherov, entwhistle, hogan, Q2, Saarela1,


its only messy because we don't know who will step up yet...but it sure looks like somebody will and I think all we need is patience, they have intentionally gotten deeper and created this situation so we will have to see what they plan to do with it.
Thank you for the betteran.

I just thought there were 3-4 clear spots open on this roster. I thought Bovquist deserved last year when our D was terrible. He played well enough to earn a spot, their dilemma was they could not ship him out after starting on the NHL squad and two young d men were too much for Q to handle.
Kubalik had a spot, Dach was always projected as the only top 5 guy who wont start on an NHL team this year. Now add, Shaw, carpenter and smith, all natural centers The 3 forward spots open has turned to 1.

As far as the D goes, the 4 over 4 million guys are all signed for 3 more years. Murph is at 3.8 and it will boil down to who can play point on the PP.

I am pretty sure somebody will step up, my patience is running thin. Rockford is loaded, which should mean that some of these guys should be able to play in the NHL.
 

MassHavoc

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I honestly haven't watched or cared to watch much of Shaw the last few years and have 0 idea if he's even remotely the type of player he was when he was here, and if he is great, but we all need to be prepared for the fact that maybe he's wised up a bit and the reckless nature of his game that we once all knew and loved, is no longer as prominent.
 

Raskolnikov

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I honestly haven't watched or cared to watch much of Shaw the last few years and have 0 idea if he's even remotely the type of player he was when he was here, and if he is great, but we all need to be prepared for the fact that maybe he's wised up a bit and the reckless nature of his game that we once all knew and loved, is no longer as prominent.


From what I gather Shaw has successfully advanced to a skill game and the league direction probably played into his hands a bit there. The space he used to have to create with tenacity and toughness is just there now for smaller/quicker guys.

so the funny thing is...that we should have seen coming with Shaw, was that he had the skills to be something else other than an agitator. That is why he ran with the ones occasionally or can fill into about any role or duty each night...

For 4,000,000 he just has to gather his 40 points and inspire some guys to be a little tougher and I am happy. With him and Jewels and Kampf/Carp/Smith my feeling is some more dirty work gets done and passed around. Its just tough on a team where you have so many big contract "role" players who play a defined game and there isn't space or cap for the "glue guys" to stick around.

My sense is we will see a wiser player who makes the game look easier than he did in some ways, and is more selective about bursts of energy...but hot head fight like that is just in some guys and its not like he will be calm when the fire gets hot.
 

Raskolnikov

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I think the key to this current situation is....we start at the worst case scenario... and then the organization has a long list of what I would call "interesting questions"...that IF answered yes, would mean potential incredible upside to the season.

1. Are Saarela, Q2, Nylander, or Kubalik going to step into the roster and just fit crazy well into a top 6 roll along side either Toews or the Cat-Strome
2. Would Sikura or Perlini step-up and into one?
3. Is there a surprise youth, or god forbid 2 who cannot be denied a roster spot out of Dach, Bovqist, Beudin, Kucherov or a surprise like Entwhistle, Hogan, Fortin, or

The crazy I am rooting for is Bovqist out of camp, and Saarela and Kubalik and Dach. If those 4 players all made opening day roster it would bode well for us with or without Perlini.

Its said Saarela has one of the best shots in AHL, so he is a huge candidate to claim opposite Kaner actually, imo...if you wanted to build a line around
1. Saad-Toews-Shaw(+Kaner shifts)
2. Cat-Strome-Smith(+alot of Kaner shifts)
3. Saarella-Dach-Kane(plus some smith shifts)
4. Jewels-Kampf-Carpenter(+Kaner shifts)

13. kubalik/entwhistle

This would mean the hawks are dominant. Imo, if those players forced that line-up with their play.
I think you could run a Entwhistle-Dach-Smith line if you wanted a defensive 3rd energy line and Smith to carry faceoffs for Dach.
the likely easy route is

jewel-toews-kane
cat-strome-shaw
saad-kampf-smith
nylander/sikura/saarela-carpenter-perlini


If colloton starts the latter and takes too long to figure it out, I have a bad feeling about that gauntlet to begin season.
 
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anotheridiot

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I am all for seeing some dirty work getting done, bottom line though if your D does not have that enforcer, them most of what the forwards do is just little guys being annoying. Seabroke just wont be that guy anymore. I dont know if he found Jesus or just thinks he gets paid too much to do it. but if nobody is expecting to get wiped out by a d man, teams will just keep beating up the talent..
 

LordKOTL

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I am all for seeing some dirty work getting done, bottom line though if your D does not have that enforcer, them most of what the forwards do is just little guys being annoying. Seabroke just wont be that guy anymore. I dont know if he found Jesus or just thinks he gets paid too much to do it. but if nobody is expecting to get wiped out by a d man, teams will just keep beating up the talent..
Well, the best enforcer of all time was a LW... (RIP Probert). I don't think the purvey of creaming guys is on the D and D alone.

I think I get what you're driving at, though, and as I mentioned on another board there seems to be an Aura of Pussification™ on the 'hawks and has been for a few years now. It seems like when anyone...and I mean anyone shows any kind of pack mentality it's quickly quashed out of them. Breadman? Remember when a guy ran kane and he went after him. Beautiful moment, no? Never did it again. Even Debrincat, of all players, went after a guy for going after Keith...and never did it again.

You could argue both of those guys are better on the ice than off the ice...and you could also argue that with the PK and Team D sucking like R Kelly when handed a bottle of Cambodian breast milk...but IMHO that's no excuse. If liberties are taken against your team, you do what you can against the opposition. Sumetimes it's a fight. Sometimes it's laying the guy out. Sometimes it's laying the opposing star out, running their goalie, taking potshots at the goalie's mask, crashing the net hard, or, if you're a guy like Kane or Debrincat, finding that extra gear and giving the goalie a Luongo Seizure. You make them pay--and if one guy does fight or otherwise go after a player in retaliation, you kill the ensuing penalty-0-no ifs, ands, or buts. It's pack mentality and it's something this team doesn't have.

And it's also why I'm so fucking pissed off at the 18 skater pantywaists iced over the past two seasons. Crawford got ran, twice, and once after he was carrying their bloated carcasses at the playoff line while they mailed it in. I don't think it's the lack of ability to make the opposition pay the piper. Hell, Keith could have swashbuckled Malkin as if he was Coyle (and given how hard Keith sucked in 2018, it would have been the best thing he did all year--even taking the ensuing suspension into consideration) and it would have been something. But, no. Nothing. No payabck collected on Malkin. No one tried to Run Crosby. No one tried to run Murray or takes some slapshots at his melon--and the same happened with respect to E. Kane and the sharks in 2019. IMHO that's inexcusable. That's not a team, that's 19 individuals on the ice, and that mentality never wins you a cup.

It's a worry I have with the squad coming in. I'm expecting a little snarl from guys like Smith, Shaw, Carpenter, even Lehner a bit. But, if that Aura of Pussification™ is too strong and still pervasive we might be looking at the same shit this year...and that worries me especially with respect to Crawford. I don't know what the exact cause of the Aura of Pussification™ is, but I believe that until/unless it stops, it doesn't matter how many big guys we get onto the ice, that pack mentality and physical play will be a nonfactor.
 

anotheridiot

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I just figure its a gentlemans game with the hawks. They had no brawlers or even checkers, and it was like, we wont hit your guys if you promise not to hit our guys. Some teams stay back on their heels so Kane does not just skate past them, but one can argue, Kane making a d man look like he is stuck in the ice is a bigger burn than that guy getting railed. So eventually it always comes back to when the other team does get physical.

I honestly think they had the plan with Carbomb. He got put on the top line with kane and toews so there was a guy that was on the ice to go after anyone that hit him.
 

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Anybody want to comment specifically on

(Saad/Jewels)-Toews-Shaw (plus sometimes Kane)
Cat-Strome-Smith (plus sometimes Kane)
(Saarela/Kubalik)-Dach-Kane (plus sometimes Smith)
(Saad/Jewels)-Kampf-(Carpenter/Perlini/Nylander/Sikura)

Smith flipping with Kane would be intereresting, allowing Kane to get healthy minutes with Cat-Strome, and also fortify Dach's minutes, unless he is letting Smith take some face-offs for Dach.

Maybe Jewels would be a nice player there, or Shaw...I tried to put the most likely and significant "camp battles" in bold...but probably the biggest question for me with camp is where is Nylander and where is Kubalik?

And what is Saarela? or dark horse what is Q2? and what is their plan for Q2?

Everyone else is sort of a known quantity. Having other right wings like Shaw and Smith will really allow them to situationally rotate guys in, with Smith able to dig it out of the zone frequently, or win a face-off, and Kane entering at will as frequently as possible knowing if he gets tired...Smith can come into a better situation or Shaw can do his jekyl and hyde thing...that 4th guy can be a young guy that takes a step or at the least Carpenter to stand in.

It would be interesting to see if one guy can step up at LW, C, and RW. I'd like Carpenter to be the 13th man with one good scorer emerging, and one good worker, and Dach...

we get one good scorer to emerge, one good worker, and Dach...

thats alot to ask for but I'm gonna say its not over the moon. If you say...And Dach and Bovqist...

I'm still not dreaming. Those 4 things are possible. Dach/Bovqist/Scorer/worker

boom...playoffs with either goalie.
 

Raskolnikov

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OK, so I was watching some Kubalik tape and he has one of the best wrist shots on the BlackHawks.

So I'd guess one spot goes to either Saarella or Kubalik. Either would look good across from Kane, or as part of a Dach line-up. Or ... for sure Kubalik is a right winger, imo...actually...

so, potentially if both can score...

Saarela-Toews-Kane
Cat-Strome-Kubalik
Shaw-Dach-Smith
Jewels-Kampf-Carpenter/sikura/nylander

Would be a dream type scenario...and also Bovqist is unstoppable...so I don't know who goes or how but they have like 9 defenseman!

Kubalik is basically like a thing though, fyi...he looks amazing with space to shoot...Put him on Toews or Cats right side and I guarantee he will produce at a Kane goals/game clip in the same spot....but he will not match Kane's assists.

Saad-Toews-Kubalik
Cat-Strome-Kane
Jewels-Dach-Shaw
Carpenter-Kampf-Smith

is just a personal suggestion of mine. ;) FYI...give that a look and see what happens. Play Crazy train by Ozzy Ozburne in spurts for 3 seconds periodically on the PA everytime line 3 comes out.

It took me a while, but that right there, that last attempt might be the BlackHawks ultimate Mega-tron formation. Dach has to slowly cut his mohawk higher and higher as the season goes on and learn to scrap from those guys as his mentors. hahahahahahaha

He is a future captain, but take that 18 year old testosterone and let him lead the energy on the bottom 6 with that core of veterans around him...holy shit...let him eat sleep and breathe what that bottom 6 is for 2 seasons...and he will be the center you need forever.

Young pirate. Thats my nickname for him. Young Pirate. (yes, drinking again, don't ask)
 

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I just figure its a gentlemans game with the hawks. They had no brawlers or even checkers, and it was like, we wont hit your guys if you promise not to hit our guys. Some teams stay back on their heels so Kane does not just skate past them, but one can argue, Kane making a d man look like he is stuck in the ice is a bigger burn than that guy getting railed. So eventually it always comes back to when the other team does get physical.

I honestly think they had the plan with Carbomb. He got put on the top line with kane and toews so there was a guy that was on the ice to go after anyone that hit him.
Pretty much. Any team worth a squirt of piss is going to leverage the assets it has to win and if one team, like the 'hawks, doesn't do any retaliation (scoreboard, physical, or otherwise), The other will take complete advantage. Guys like Gorilla Salad are useful as long as they don't instigate. But, if there's word from above not to, then what use are they? Granted, it's not like Shaw is useless out there and you have to balance the usefulness of a player with how much they'd set back the team if put in the box/suspended, but if the coaching/brass end up muzzling Shaw even if a star is ran, it's not bringing the team's full range of talent to bear, and it's a shitty way to run a hockey team.

On paper the 'hawks got some sandpaper, which is good. But considering the fact that the past few seasons anyone who showed any pack mentality was quickly reined in has me worried. Shaw, Smith, etc. might be preemptively muzzled by someone higher up on them on the corporate (but not evolutionary) ladder.
 

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