3 rebounds in 82 minutes...

[AirP]

dougthonus wrote:

You can play basketball with a groin injury, it sucks though and like I said, you pick your spots because you don't want to be hurting the whole time out there... so you will go easy as much as you think you can get away with(which leads to not much rebounding since that's got alot to do with desire and hustle). If Deng were available I don't think we'd see much of Salmons out there.

I didn't mean to make it sound like I was skeptical that Salmons had a groin injury or anything. I meant to just say that it's extremely difficult to play like you normally would through such an injury, and that lateral movement and anything explosive is just terrible.

Here's a little food for thought...

How big was the Thabo trade for a late first round pick? In Chicago's current situation Thabo would be a HUGE help defensively and rebounding at SF or SG.

 

[Fred]

AirP wrote:

:

Here's a little food for thought...

How big was the Thabo trade for a late first round pick? In Chicago's current situation Thabo would be a HUGE help defensively and rebounding at SF or SG.

That's a really good point. In Game 1 of the 2007 playoff series against the Heat, Hinrich played only 19 minutes because of foul trouble and pathetic play. Skiles used Thabo quite a bit at the 2 in that game, and moved Gordon to the point. Ben dished out 11 assists and the Bulls won.

Here is the box score from that game:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=270421004

We could've gone in that direction too with Thabo. But in the long run, Thabo staying would have limited the possible return of Gordon. If we sign him in the summer, it was a good move. If we don't, it wasn't.

 

[Fred]

AirP, one more thing, after watching the game last night, you were absolutely right about the perimeter rebounding. Someone has to stop Rondo from getting to the glass. He just killed us.

 

[AirP]

Fred wrote:

AirP wrote:

:

Here's a little food for thought...

How big was the Thabo trade for a late first round pick? In Chicago's current situation Thabo would be a HUGE help defensively and rebounding at SF or SG.

That's a really good point. In Game 1 of the 2007 playoff series against the Heat, Hinrich played only 19 minutes because of foul trouble and pathetic play. Skiles used Thabo quite a bit at the 2 in that game, and moved Gordon to the point. Ben dished out 11 assists and the Bulls won.

Here is the box score from that game:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=270421004

We could've gone in that direction too with Thabo. But in the long run, Thabo staying would have limited the possible return of Gordon. If we sign him in the summer, it was a good move. If we don't, it wasn't.

Thabo could have been traded in the offseason, i doubt we would have had much problem with that, OKC wanted him for that price and it didn't matter if they got him during the season or in the offseason, as long as they had him before next season.

We were under the Luxury Cap with his salary at the end of the year so this season it didn't matter... and if the Thunder were willing to trade for him for the future it didn't matter if they traded during the season or before the next season.

 

[dougthonus]

Thabo could have been traded in the offseason, i doubt we would have had much problem with that, OKC wanted him for that price and it didn't matter if they got him during the season or in the offseason, as long as they had him before next season.

We were under the Luxury Cap with his salary at the end of the year so this season it didn't matter... and if the Thunder were willing to trade for him for the future it didn't matter if they traded during the season or before the next season.

At the time we traded Thabo, we didn't expect Luol Deng to be out the rest of the season. If Luol Deng was playing than Thabo would be nailed to the bench still. You also have no idea what OKC may have done had they not traded for Thabo, there may have been another guard they were willing to trade for instead. They may have decided to simply keep their pick. They may have wanted to save their money on someone else.

The idea that "if we didn't do this, we could have easily done it later" is simply not true. Thabo isn't the type of player you hold up other moves for. Trading Thabo was a great move at the time, and it's still a good long term move for us.

He certainly would help us at this exact moment no doubt though, especially given that he'd have brought rebounding we need from the SF position, and we aren't scoring much there anyway.

 

[AirP]

Fred wrote:

AirP, one more thing, after watching the game last night, you were absolutely right about the perimeter rebounding. Someone has to stop Rondo from getting to the glass. He just killed us.

They don't have to "stop" Rondo, our guards just have to have the desire to get the rebounds. You really don't see guards putting a body on other guards 15-20 feet away from the basket all that often.

Derrick Rose grabbed 6 boards himself, that's pretty good, but for our SG and SF to have 3 in 82 minutes... come on... just grabbing a couple more would have been more then enough to win this game for Chicago. In fact it probably wouldn't have been a close game if they would have gotten near their averages for rebounds... and that's with Rondo still getting much more rebounds then his average.

I agree, Tyrus needs to have much more desire to rebound, but to tell you the truth, where he usually is when the shot goes up... in the corner... it's nearly impossible to get a good read or even have a chance at a rebound from there, I'm really not sure why Vinnie has a rebounder like Tyrus in probably the worst place on the court to try to get a rebound at. I understand it's for spacing but at what cost?

 

[Shakes]

dougthonus wrote:

At the time we traded Thabo, we didn't expect Luol Deng to be out the rest of the season. If Luol Deng was playing than Thabo would be nailed to the bench still. You also have no idea what OKC may have done had they not traded for Thabo, there may have been another guard they were willing to trade for instead. They may have decided to simply keep their pick. They may have wanted to save their money on someone else.

Maybe the better move (in hindsight because of the injury, although I wanted it at the time too because of the salary implications) would have been to dump Deng and keep Thabo then.

 

[AirP]

dougthonus wrote:

Thabo could have been traded in the offseason, i doubt we would have had much problem with that, OKC wanted him for that price and it didn't matter if they got him during the season or in the offseason, as long as they had him before next season.

We were under the Luxury Cap with his salary at the end of the year so this season it didn't matter... and if the Thunder were willing to trade for him for the future it didn't matter if they traded during the season or before the next season.

At the time we traded Thabo, we didn't expect Luol Deng to be out the rest of the season. If Luol Deng was playing than Thabo would be nailed to the bench still. You also have no idea what OKC may have done had they not traded for Thabo, there may have been another guard they were willing to trade for instead. They may have decided to simply keep their pick. They may have wanted to save their money on someone else.

The idea that "if we didn't do this, we could have easily done it later" is simply not true. Thabo isn't the type of player you hold up other moves for. Trading Thabo was a great move at the time, and it's still a good long term move for us.

He certainly would help us at this exact moment no doubt though, especially given that he'd have brought rebounding we need from the SF position, and we aren't scoring much there anyway.

Actually, Presti had been waiting for Chicago to finally put Thabo up for trade. Ron Adams had been singing his praises for a while in OKC since arriving there. I'm not saying Thabo is a great player, but for what they were going to have to give up for him(because sooner or later he'd be very expendable for Chicago) they'd get him for a good price.

If you don't think many teams wouldn't want Thabo for around 3 million a year by just giving up a late round pick then... wow. I think he's quite valueable around that price and would make a bunch of sense for some of the better teams in the league to add his defense to their rotation.

 

[dougthonus]

Maybe the better move (in hindsight because of the injury, although I wanted it at the time too because of the salary implications) would have been to dump Deng and keep Thabo then

I wouldn't have minded dumping Deng at the deadline if we could, but I don't know that we could have done that if we tried.

 

[dougthonus]

Actually, Presti had been waiting for Chicago to finally put Thabo up for trade. Ron Adams had been singing his praises for a while in OKC since arriving there. I'm not saying Thabo is a great player, but for what they were going to have to give up for him(because sooner or later he'd be very expendable for Chicago) they'd get him for a good price.

Very well could be, I'll certainly grant you that you have far more insight into Oklahoma City's moves than I would. I still think there's no way you can say with any certainty that they're going to be ready to take him in the summer. You simply don't know if another team offers them something better for their cap space.

If you don't think many teams wouldn't want Thabo for around 3 million a year by just giving up a late round pick then... wow. I think he's quite valueable around that price and would make a bunch of sense for some of the better teams in the league to add his defense to their rotation.

I think if we waited until the summer, the odds are extremely high that we would not have been able to trade Thabo for a pick and pure cap space. I'm not sure if there's another team in the league that could even offer such a package outside of Oklahoma City that had a reasonable first round pick.

Almost every other team would need to send us a contract back making their offer no where near as good. Secondly, of the teams that could make such an offer, their opportunity cost is high, because this is going to be a huge buyers market, and having cap space would allow them to pursue far more valuable players than Thabo most likely.

Next, you have the fact that Thabo will need to be resigned in 1 year whereas you could use that cap space on someone would be locked up longer or use the draft pick on a guy who will be locked up on the cheap for four years.

Thabo at 3 million for 1 year just doesn't excite me much if I'm a team. He's likely not going over the MLE as a FA, I can bid on him even if over the cap in a year anyway if I want him that badly. You might see guys like Boozer, Okur, David Lee, Ben Gordon etc take near MLE deals this year because the bidders are so few. I'm not selling my cap space for Thabo Sefolosha.

 

[AirP]

dougthonus wrote:

Thabo at 3 million for 1 year just doesn't excite me much if I'm a team. He's likely not going over the MLE as a FA, I can bid on him even if over the cap in a year anyway if I want him that badly. You might see guys like Boozer, Okur, David Lee, Ben Gordon etc take near MLE deals this year because the bidders are so few. I'm not selling my cap space for Thabo Sefolosha.

That's where me and you have different views. I believe you need some great value players in your 8-9 man rotation and don't need many different regular scorers on the team. Rose, Gordon, Salmons and even Deng all have chances to put up 20+ points on any given night, Hinrich, Miller and Tyrus can put in 15 points regularly if given big minutes to go with their rebounding, assists and shot blocking.

While it's nice having a bunch of different guys who can give you 20+ points on any given night... you pay for it with their contracts, since all are possible 20+ point guys, they want to be paid that way even if you're not going to utilize them that way each night. To me you're paying for the potential of what they can give your team each night, not what your team will actually utilize from them each night and with that, not great value contracts.

You have no idea how much more I want to write... maybe I'll put up a new thread on the way I'd like to see this franchise move forward... I'm sure that'll start some arguments.

 

[dougthonus]

That's where me and you have different views. I believe you need some great value players in your 8-9 man rotation and don't need many different regular scorers on the team. Rose, Gordon, Salmons and even Deng all have chances to put up 20+ points on any given night, Hinrich, Miller and Tyrus can put in 15 points regularly if given big minutes to go with their rebounding, assists and shot blocking.

I don't think we're differing, your point is exactly why you won't be able to trade Thabo later as you asserted. YOu need great value players. This is going to be one of the all time best buyer's markets for NBA talent. You don't waste 3 million in cap space if you're one of the few teams that has any on a guy who's a 3 million dollar player and will be a FA in one year.

While it's nice having a bunch of different guys who can give you 20+ points on any given night... you pay for it with their contracts, since all are possible 20+ point guys, they want to be paid that way even if you're not going to utilize them that way each night. To me you're paying for the potential of what they can give your team each night, not what your team will actually utilize from them each night and with that, not great value contracts.

I'm not sure how this is relevant to any point I've made really. Thabo Sefolosha is not going to be a value contract in a year, he's going to be a market value contract. I don't even think he's a value contract now really. He's a rotation player in the NBA, an okay 8th man on your roster. I wouldn't be upset in having him. It remains to be seen how the Bulls will use the assets acquired for him in the future.

You have no idea how much more I want to write... maybe I'll put up a new thread on the way I'd like to see this franchise move forward... I'm sure that'll start some arguments.

Please do so!