Aramis Ramirez Might Be Traded After All and Other Bullets

[Rice Cube]

Re: Aramis...

Baseball Video Highlights & Clips | CHC@WSH: Ramirez makes a diving grab, nearly gets two - Video | MLB.com: Multimedia

The Cubs.com highlights are littered with plays like this. He does make errors, he's slow, he's old, he's probably defensively inept for the most part, but he's not lacking in effort. People simply see what they want to see.

This is almost the same type of dive he took that killed his 2009 season, and by extension, the Cubs' chances that year. If anything you'd think that he would stop diving all over the place after that injury. Hmm.

 

[nwfisch]

I wonder how of this is just trying to increase his value for next year. It'd be great if he did these things last year, and before for the most part. He made some great plays, and did give effort at times, but I don't see a strong attitude from him.

What bothers is the wishy-washy approach he took in signing with the Cubs and then picking up his option for 2011.

Again, I question this all of a sudden increase in effort coincides with his contract being in team control now.

 

[Rice Cube]

The Myth Of The Contract Year Slugger - Forbes.com

Aramis Ramirez Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com

You decide.

You see what you want to see.

 

[nwfisch]

OK. People can look at numbers, and say Ramirez isn't trying harder, but I doubt Ramirez would have made that play he made last night 3-5 years ago.

 

[Rice Cube]

September 2008:

Baseball Video Highlights & Clips | Ramirez makes a great diving stop on Pujols - Video | MLB.com: Multimedia

 

[nwfisch]

Like I said, Ramirez makes good plays, but for every one of those, it seems like there was a play where just moving his feet would have blocked the ball from going through. MLB doesn't put those plays on the highlights.

 

[poodski]

Like I said, Ramirez makes good plays, but for every one of those, it seems like there was a play where just moving his feet would have blocked the ball from going through. MLB doesn't put those plays on the highlights.

I bolded the key word on there, hence what I have said in the past about defense.

Regardless I do get mad at him for dogging it out at times, but there are plenty of other times like RC has said where he does lay out for balls.

 

[DewsSox79]

But where exactly? I mean the only position that is really upgradeable is first base. Possibly 2B if you think Kelly Johnson can be productive again, but other than that there isn't a whole lot to get that significantly improves the ball club.

It all comes down to what will Aramis sign for honestly. If he is wanting to stay in the 10-14 million dollar a year range he needs to go. If he wants to stay in the 5-7 million dollar range then yeah I would probably take him back as well.

Regardless replacing Pena with Fielder and replacing Aramis with Jeff Baker doesn't really improve this team much. The Cubs need to more than supplement his stats elsewhere because doing that is just treading water something the Cubs can ill-afford to do.

5-7 million is a no brainer no matter what his reputation is as far as dogging it and showing up when he wants to. that is a good deal, problem is, he is playing much better and if he keeps hitting home runs here and there and holds his BA and OBP he may demand more. At this point fans that want him back should hope he starts getting lazy and starts playing worse so that the 5-7 is more realistic.

im not going to get into the prince thing again, so i am just going to stick with replacing his numbers at another spot.

kelly johnson? ehhh I think I would take kelly johnson over darwin barney.

RF- spot will be vacant.

CF- it isnt like byrd is getting paid 15 mil, he can be a higher priced utility player and you can go out and get a CFr.

 

[poodski]

kelly johnson? ehhh I think I would take kelly johnson over darwin barney.

I would as well, but still depends on what he is willing to sign for. 2B thus far this season has been the least offensive position in the game. Well I see now it has taken over the 2nd to last spot and amazingly 3B is now the least offensive position.

RF- spot will be vacant.

CF- it isnt like byrd is getting paid 15 mil, he can be a higher priced utility player and you can go out and get a CFr.

These two will probably be filled by Byrd and Jackson though. Byrd isn't getting paid 15 million but it is I believe 6.5. Not exactly something you want as a fourth OF'er. I still hold out hope he is moved, but we shall see.

The CF/RF'ers available aren't exactly game changers, unless Jason Kubel can stick in RF still. In fact the group of OF'ers is pretty bad.

 

[Rice Cube]

If you want to believe that Aramis Ramirez is a dog, that's fine, because those are your lying eyes at work. My lying eyes are going to tell me that from what I personally saw, backed up by statistics, Aramis Ramirez was a big reason why the team was so successful in 2007 and 2008 and that's backed up by WAR as well as his standard statistics.

All that said, I hope the Cubs buy him out or trade him to a desperate contender because he's aging, an injury-risk, and probably due to decline anyway. I was happy with Aramis as a Cub. It's a shame so many fans were not.

 

[DewsSox79]

If you want to believe that Aramis Ramirez is a dog, that's fine, because those are your lying eyes at work. My lying eyes are going to tell me that from what I personally saw, backed up by statistics, Aramis Ramirez was a big reason why the team was so successful in 2007 and 2008 and that's backed up by WAR as well as his standard statistics.

All that said, I hope the Cubs buy him out or trade him to a desperate contender because he's aging, an injury-risk, and probably due to decline anyway. I was happy with Aramis as a Cub. It's a shame so many fans were not.

no. just no.

 

[nwfisch]

Like I said, stats do not equal dogging it. Campana has shitty stats, but that equals dogging it? :shrug:

Dogging it is not advancing first to second when you could have easily. Dogging it is not moving your feet to stop a ground ball. Those plays don't make the highlights. However, those are the plays I remember unfortunately. I remember how amazing he was in 03 07 08 and 09, and now this recent stretch.

A Ram's put up great numbers, but there's been times when 100% effort hasn't been given, and 100% wasn't even needed.

 

[poodski]

If you want to believe that Aramis Ramirez is a dog, that's fine, because those are your lying eyes at work. My lying eyes are going to tell me that from what I personally saw, backed up by statistics, Aramis Ramirez was a big reason why the team was so successful in 2007 and 2008 and that's backed up by WAR as well as his standard statistics.

All that said, I hope the Cubs buy him out or trade him to a desperate contender because he's aging, an injury-risk, and probably due to decline anyway. I was happy with Aramis as a Cub. It's a shame so many fans were not.

The only real negative thing I have to say about Aramis is that he fights chickens.

Outside of that he has been great. Especially 2007 where him and Soriano practically drug this team into the playoffs by themselves. It's amazing how short of a memory fans have.

 

[Rice Cube]

Comparing Tony Campana to Aramis Ramirez is an insult to major league players everywhere :lol:

 

[nwfisch]

Comparing Tony Campana to Aramis Ramirez is an insult to major league players everywhere :lol:

You said Ramirez has great stats, which I agree with, and you said that does not equal dogging it?

I provide an example of what's considered a bad baseball player, Tony Campana, and his crappy stats, and wondered if he dogs it? I don't think Campana dogs it because he has bad stats.

 

[poodski]

Like I said, stats do not equal dogging it. Campana has shitty stats, but that equals dogging it? :shrug:

Dogging it is not advancing first to second when you could have easily. Dogging it is not moving your feet to stop a ground ball. Those plays don't make the highlights. However, those are the plays I remember unfortunately. I remember how amazing he was in 03 07 08 and 09, and now this recent stretch.

A Ram's put up great numbers, but there's been times when 100% effort hasn't been given, and 100% wasn't even needed.

I believe the confusion comes from Dews calling him a dog, not saying he is out there dogging it.

I took it to mean he was a bad player at first. Even if he does dog it the numbers speak for themself. He is still a very productive player.

 

[Rice Cube]

You said Ramirez has great stats, which I agree with, and you said that does not equal dogging it?

I provide an example of what's considered a bad baseball player, Tony Campana, and his crappy stats, and wondered if he dogs it? I don't think Campana dogs it because he has bad stats.

Tony Campana can't afford to "dog it" because if he does, he is absolutely useless to the club. Aramis Ramirez hits doubles and home runs even if he is "dogging it" so the two are not comparable. Based on his speed and our use of logic, you can calculate that 90% of the time, if the ball is not hit in the gap, Aramis is staying at first base, so however fast he moves out of the box is irrelevant. You then look at Tony Campana, who can't hit the damned ball out of the infield, and while he's going as fast as he can, he's still out about 70% of the time. You can't compare a top ten third baseman to a pinch-runner.

 

[nwfisch]

Tony Campana can't afford to "dog it" because if he does, he is absolutely useless to the club. Aramis Ramirez hits doubles and home runs even if he is "dogging it" so the two are not comparable. Based on his speed and our use of logic, you can calculate that 90% of the time, if the ball is not hit in the gap, Aramis is staying at first base, so however fast he moves out of the box is irrelevant. You then look at Tony Campana, who can't hit the damned ball out of the infield, and while he's going as fast as he can, he's still out about 70% of the time. You can't compare a top ten third baseman to a pinch-runner.

So stats doesn't equate to dogging it? I agree, I may have been misunderstanding. Not the first time on here, and probably not the last

To say Ramirez's stats proves that he doesn't dog it at times is false as well.

 

[DewsSox79]

just because stat lines are good, DOES not mean the player doesnt dog it. it seems as though some of you are defending this because he is on the cubs. Maybe instead of watching fangraphs, perhaps some of you should watch the games. It is one of the biggest complaints by brenly over the last few years....I guess he really doesnt know that much though.

 

[poodski]

just because stat lines are good, DOES not mean the player doesnt dog it. it seems as though some of you are defending this because he is on the cubs. Maybe instead of watching fangraphs, perhaps some of you should watch the games. It is one of the biggest complaints by brenly over the last few years....I guess he really doesnt know that much though.

But who gives a shit if he dogs it?

My team of nine players that "dog" it but hit like Aramis will beat your team of David Ecksteins and Ryan Theriots that hustle every single play but can't hit for shit.

Also a color guy complaining about a player "dogging it" doesn't equal that player isn't still very productive. And you don't need fangraphs to show you he is still very productive.