Back to the draft QB rankings. How do they compare in specific arm traits.

[Bearly]

Looking back at arm talent in the draft, 1st rounders.

Accuracy often came up as being Jones' forte' but does it count if you can't make all the throws like the one in the vid form other Field threads? Use the entire field and routes and you have Wilson and Fields as the best throwers with Lawrence a close 3rd, next is Jones then Lance.

Reads? Jones is probably 1st, Fields 2nd, with Lawrence and Wilson 3rd.

Pocket presence is Jones then Fields/Lawrance/Wilson, then Lance.

Throwing off platform? Wilson and Fields followed by Lawrence and then Jones simply due to how much more limited the field of targets gets for him. Lance's probably belongs in here with Jones but he tucked and ran so much along with just OK accuracy, it makes him difficult to rank but we'll add him to Jones here.

Velocity? Everyone but Jones, doesn't make the top 4. Bunch of strong arms up top.

Add running and you have to bring Lance on top with Fields, then Lawrence, followed by Wilson. Great, VG and then Jones.

Lots of this will have to do with how you view certain categories and how much you value having the entire field available under certain circumstances so these ratings can vary a lot.

Low score wins.

1, Fields (7)
2. Wilson (8)
3. Lawrence (10)
4. Jones (14)
5. Lance (18)

Does this mean that this is how they should have been drafted? Absolutely not. It discounts potential, system, large differences between rankings that a more graduated point scale would provide, etc. but it does show that Fields has a good reason to put that chip on his shoulder and make the NFL Pay.

I think the top 2 are going to be the best NFL QBs but like all QB prospects, it's a guess.

 

[Heidenlarm]

Fields got the lowest of lowhangers?

 

[Anytime23]

HOF confirmed

 

[Black Rainbow]

Suddenly Lawrence doesn't lead in any category - amazing.

 

[Pegger]

'Arm talent' is tough to rank because there are a lot of different ways to complete a pass. Let's look at typical 5 yard out. Someone can rip it in there or drop it towards the sidelines. Different situations can call for different throws, so it's not only being able to do both but also doing the right one based on situation.

Personally I think having touch on throws is the most important. This is not 'accuracy, but rather throwing a catchable ball. Some have better touch on short/medium passes. Some better on deep balls.

For me, arm strength is only good if the player maintains touch. Let's take Mitch Trubisky. Physically he could rip the ball, but he couldn't consistently drop in an easy catchable ball.

There's also another aspect of touch and that's do they still throw a nice catchable ball when going through progressions? Again, think Mitch. As he moved through his reads it seemed like he was rushing the pass. Sometimes this is something fundamental like not setting their feet or the arm motion is too long (think Tebow). Sometimes it's mental where as their internal clock ticks down they rush the pass out.

Anyway, all in getting at is that it's complicated. If I was to judge the top 5 on my 'Arm talent' thoughts it would look like:

1 - Wilson - complete freak. Extremely quick feet, very compact delivery and not only can he flick the ball for 50 yards, it maintains touch. Think Aaron Rodgers.

2 - Lawrence - doesn't have the pure arm of Wilson, but always stays calm and throws with touch.

3 - Jones - only knock is that it seems he has to set his feet to manufacture power. This takes longer and means he has to set up his deep shots.

 

[Bearly]

Suddenly Lawrence doesn't lead in any category - amazing.

What is he best at? He's with the #1s in velocity. I put this up for discussion. How about you add instead of subtract.

Point was that fields should have gone in the top 3 picks, not that he will be the best QB which none of us can predict. There's also intangibles to consider but they're not that tangible, LOL.

 

[remydat]

Added a couple of categories

Body of work - This is the Trubisky effect as I argued in 2017 that part of the evaluation has to take into account how long they played at a high level and how well did they adjust the following year when they had a target on their back. On that basis, I would have Lawrence, Fields, Jones, Wilson and Lance as Lawrence has been a stud since he was a true Freshman and Fields since he was a true Sophomore. The others have just one year of elite stats to their name. So that's Lawrence 1, Fields 2, Jones 3, Wilson 4 and Lance 5.

All the world's a stage - This is about who has shown up with clutch performances time and time again and I would have it Lawrence, Jones, Fields, Lance and Wilson. So it's Lawrence 2, Fields 5, Jones 5, Wilson 9 and Lance 9.

Toughness - Self explanatory. I would go Fields, Lawrence, Lance, Jones, Wilson so that would make it Lawrence 4, Fields 6, Jones 9, Wilson 14 and Lance 12

Accuracy - I will stick just to their accuracy on the throws they were asked to make so for me that means its Jones, Wilson, Fields, Lawrence and Lance. So its Lawrence 8, Fields 9, Jones 10, Wilson 16 and Lance 17

Reads - I have it Jones, Lawrence, Fields, Wilson and Lance. So its Lawrence 10, Fields 12. Jones 12, Wilson 20 and Lance 22

Pocket presence is Lawrence, Fields, Lance, Wilson, Jones. So its Lawrence 11, Fields 14, Jones 16, Wilson 24 and Lance 25

Throwing off platform? Wilson, Fields, Lawrence, Lance and Jones. So its Lawrence 14, Fields 16, Jones 21, Wilson 25 and Lance 29

Velocity? I have Lance, Wilson, Fields and Lawrence as all 1. Jones is 5. So its Lawrence 15, Fields 17, Jones 26, Wilson 26 and Lance 30

Running - Lance, Fields, Lawrence, Wilson, Jones. So its Lawrence 18, Fields 19, Jones, 31, Wilson 30 and Lance 31

Potential - Lance, Wilson, Fields,/Lawrence, Jones. So its Lawrence 20, Fields 21, Jones 36, Wilson 32 and Lance 32

1, Lawrence (20)
2. Fields (21)
3. Wilson (32)
3. Lance (32)
5. Jones (36)

 

[Bearly]

'Arm talent' is tough to rank because there are a lot of different ways to complete a pass. Let's look at typical 5 yard out. Someone can rip it in there or drop it towards the sidelines. Different situations can call for different throws, so it's not only being able to do both but also doing the right one based on situation.

Personally I think having touch on throws is the most important. This is not 'accuracy, but rather throwing a catchable ball. Some have better touch on short/medium passes. Some better on deep balls.

For me, arm strength is only good if the player maintains touch. Let's take Mitch Trubisky. Physically he could rip the ball, but he couldn't consistently drop in an easy catchable ball.

There's also another aspect of touch and that's do they still throw a nice catchable ball when going through progressions? Again, think Mitch. As he moved through his reads it seemed like he was rushing the pass. Sometimes this is something fundamental like not setting their feet or the arm motion is too long (think Tebow). Sometimes it's mental where as their internal clock ticks down they rush the pass out.

Anyway, all in getting at is that it's complicated. If I was to judge the top 5 on my 'Arm talent' thoughts it would look like:

1 - Wilson - complete freak. Extremely quick feet, very compact delivery and not only can he flick the ball for 50 yards, it maintains touch. Think Aaron Rodgers.

2 - Lawrence - doesn't have the pure arm of Wilson, but always stays calm and throws with touch.

3 - Jones - only knock is that it seems he has to set his feet to manufacture power. This takes longer and means he has to set up his deep shots.

Lawrence is not as accurate nor was asked to make the reads of Fields. Wilson didn't read as well. In terms of pure arm talent without the reads, you may be correct but I have a hard time thinking of what Fields doesn't throw well on or off platform. That said, I should have had Lawrence equal with the other 2 for throwing off platform even though his length makes it take a hair longer to snap it off. He can't speed it up as much when he needs to. Would have had him equal to Wilson in the overall rank.

Just a great draft for what should have been the top 3 prospects.

 

[Bearly]

Added a couple of categories

Body of work - This is the Trubisky effect as I argued in 2017 that part of the evaluation has to take into account how long they played at a high level and how well did they adjust the following year when they had a target on their back. On that basis, I would have Lawrence, Fields, Jones, Wilson and Lance as Lawrence has been a stud since he was a true Freshman and Fields since he was a true Sophomore. The others have just one year of elite stats to their name. So that's Lawrence 1, Fields 2, Jones 3, Wilson 4 and Lance 5.

All the world's a stage - This is about who has shown up with clutch performances time and time again and I would have it Lawrence, Jones, Fields, Lance and Wilson. So it's Lawrence 2, Fields 5, Jones 5, Wilson 9 and Lance 9.

Toughness - Self explanatory. I would go Fields, Lawrence, Lance, Jones, Wilson so that would make it Lawrence 4, Fields 6, Jones 9, Wilson 14 and Lance 12

Accuracy - I will stick just to their accuracy on the throws they were asked to make so for me that means its Jones, Wilson, Fields, Lawrence and Lance. So its Lawrence 8, Fields 9, Jones 10, Wilson 16 and Lance 17

Reads - I have it Jones, Lawrence, Fields, Wilson and Lance. So its Lawrence 10, Fields 12. Jones 12, Wilson 20 and Lance 22

Pocket presence is Lawrence, Fields, Lance, Wilson, Jones. So its Lawrence 11, Fields 14, Jones 16, Wilson 24 and Lance 25

Throwing off platform? Wilson, Fields, Lawrence, Lance and Jones. So its Lawrence 14, Fields 16, Jones 21, Wilson 25 and Lance 29

Velocity? I have Lance, Wilson, Fields and Lawrence as all 1. Jones is 5. So its Lawrence 15, Fields 17, Jones 26, Wilson 26 and Lance 30

Running - Lance, Fields, Lawrence, Wilson, Jones. So its Lawrence 18, Fields 19, Jones, 31, Wilson 30 and Lance 31

Potential - Lance, Wilson, Fields,/Lawrence, Jones. So its Lawrence 20, Fields 21, Jones 36, Wilson 32 and Lance 32

1, Lawrence (20)
2. Fields (21)
3. Wilson (32)
3. Lance (32)
5. Jones (36)

Works for me and again goes to the point that Fields should have been top 3.

 

[remydat]

Works for me and again goes to the point that Fields should have been top 3.

Oh agreed, I had Fields as no 2 the last 2 years and nothing the other guys did this year changes that. I am wary of 1 year wonders as prospects. You just can't replicate the pressure of having a target on your back and have guys pouring over game film in the offseason to try and take away what you do best. Lance, Wilson, and Jones simply don't know what that is like as especially in a Covid shortened season the ability of teams to really work on exploiting their weaknesses was limited. Doesn't mean they would not have adjusted fine but that aspect of their game is untested. That was my biggest gripe with Trubisky being taken ahead of Watson.

 

[Varking]

Added a couple of categories

Body of work - This is the Trubisky effect as I argued in 2017 that part of the evaluation has to take into account how long they played at a high level and how well did they adjust the following year when they had a target on their back. On that basis, I would have Lawrence, Fields, Jones, Wilson and Lance as Lawrence has been a stud since he was a true Freshman and Fields since he was a true Sophomore. The others have just one year of elite stats to their name. So that's Lawrence 1, Fields 2, Jones 3, Wilson 4 and Lance 5.

All the world's a stage - This is about who has shown up with clutch performances time and time again and I would have it Lawrence, Jones, Fields, Lance and Wilson. So it's Lawrence 2, Fields 5, Jones 5, Wilson 9 and Lance 9.

Toughness - Self explanatory. I would go Fields, Lawrence, Lance, Jones, Wilson so that would make it Lawrence 4, Fields 6, Jones 9, Wilson 14 and Lance 12

Accuracy - I will stick just to their accuracy on the throws they were asked to make so for me that means its Jones, Wilson, Fields, Lawrence and Lance. So its Lawrence 8, Fields 9, Jones 10, Wilson 16 and Lance 17

Reads - I have it Jones, Lawrence, Fields, Wilson and Lance. So its Lawrence 10, Fields 12. Jones 12, Wilson 20 and Lance 22

Pocket presence is Lawrence, Fields, Lance, Wilson, Jones. So its Lawrence 11, Fields 14, Jones 16, Wilson 24 and Lance 25

Throwing off platform? Wilson, Fields, Lawrence, Lance and Jones. So its Lawrence 14, Fields 16, Jones 21, Wilson 25 and Lance 29

Velocity? I have Lance, Wilson, Fields and Lawrence as all 1. Jones is 5. So its Lawrence 15, Fields 17, Jones 26, Wilson 26 and Lance 30

Running - Lance, Fields, Lawrence, Wilson, Jones. So its Lawrence 18, Fields 19, Jones, 31, Wilson 30 and Lance 31

Potential - Lance, Wilson, Fields,/Lawrence, Jones. So its Lawrence 20, Fields 21, Jones 36, Wilson 32 and Lance 32

1, Lawrence (20)
2. Fields (21)
3. Wilson (32)
3. Lance (32)
5. Jones (36)

This is solid.

 

[cafawip138]

Looking back at arm talent in the draft, 1st rounders.

Accuracy often came up as being Jones' forte' but does it count if you can't make all the throws like the one in the vid form other Field threads? Use the entire field and routes and you have Wilson and Fields as the best throwers with Lawrence a close 3rd, next is Jones then Lance.

Reads? Jones is probably 1st, Fields 2nd, with Lawrence and Wilson 3rd.

Pocket presence is Jones then Fields/Lawrance/Wilson, then Lance.

Throwing off platform? Wilson and Fields followed by Lawrence and then Jones simply due to how much more limited the field of targets gets for him. Lance's probably belongs in here with Jones but he tucked and ran so much along with just OK accuracy, it makes him difficult to rank but we'll add him to Jones here.

Velocity? Everyone but Jones, doesn't make the top 4. Bunch of strong arms up top.

Add running and you have to bring Lance on top with Fields, then Lawrence, followed by Wilson. Great, VG and then Jones.

Lots of this will have to do with how you view certain categories and how much you value having the entire field available under certain circumstances so these ratings can vary a lot.

Low score wins.

1, Fields (7)
2. Wilson (8)
3. Lawrence (10)
4. Jones (14)
5. Lance (18)

Does this mean that this is how they should have been drafted? Absolutely not. It discounts potential, system, large differences between rankings that a more graduated point scale would provide, etc. but it does show that Fields has a good reason to put that chip on his shoulder and make the NFL Pay.

I think the top 2 are going to be the best NFL QBs but like all QB prospects, it's a guess.

Pretty much spot on IMO, except for Fields and Lance sharing the #1 spot as runners. Lance is an athletic quarterback who was able to put up huge rushing numbers against FCS competition, but in the NFL he’s closer to Donovan McNabb than Lamar Jackson (based on his anecdotal 40 yard dash times in the mid 4.5s). Fields didn’t put up the rushing numbers because Ohio State was very careful with how they used him due to a lack of quarterback depth behind him (and because he was such a good passer that they usually didn’t need his legs to win), but in terms of raw athleticism relative to his size (as measured by his pro-day and SPARQ measurements), he would be in the 98th percentile among running backs. Had he played against FCS competition and been able to run freely, his rushing numbers would have dwarfed Lance’s, and nobody would put them in the same category as runners.

 

[gallagher]

Oh agreed, I had Fields as no 2 the last 2 years and nothing the other guys did this year changes that. I am wary of 1 year wonders as prospects. You just can't replicate the pressure of having a target on your back and have guys pouring over game film in the offseason to try and take away what you do best. Lance, Wilson, and Jones simply don't know what that is like as especially in a Covid shortened season the ability of teams to really work on exploiting their weaknesses was limited. Doesn't mean they would not have adjusted fine but that aspect of their game is untested. That was my biggest gripe with Trubisky being taken ahead of Watson.

Not only that, but you don't get to see how they improve in the off-season. With two full seasons of starting experience, you get to see how dedicated a player is to improving their craft.

 

[Chris Sojka]

Looking back at arm talent in the draft, 1st rounders.

Accuracy often came up as being Jones' forte' but does it count if you can't make all the throws like the one in the vid form other Field threads? Use the entire field and routes and you have Wilson and Fields as the best throwers with Lawrence a close 3rd, next is Jones then Lance.

Reads? Jones is probably 1st, Fields 2nd, with Lawrence and Wilson 3rd.

Pocket presence is Jones then Fields/Lawrance/Wilson, then Lance.

Throwing off platform? Wilson and Fields followed by Lawrence and then Jones simply due to how much more limited the field of targets gets for him. Lance's probably belongs in here with Jones but he tucked and ran so much along with just OK accuracy, it makes him difficult to rank but we'll add him to Jones here.

Velocity? Everyone but Jones, doesn't make the top 4. Bunch of strong arms up top.

Add running and you have to bring Lance on top with Fields, then Lawrence, followed by Wilson. Great, VG and then Jones.

Lots of this will have to do with how you view certain categories and how much you value having the entire field available under certain circumstances so these ratings can vary a lot.

Low score wins.

1, Fields (7)
2. Wilson (8)
3. Lawrence (10)
4. Jones (14)
5. Lance (18)

Does this mean that this is how they should have been drafted? Absolutely not. It discounts potential, system, large differences between rankings that a more graduated point scale would provide, etc. but it does show that Fields has a good reason to put that chip on his shoulder and make the NFL Pay.

I think the top 2 are going to be the best NFL QBs but like all QB prospects, it's a guess.

Consider the fact that Jacksonville is fucked from an offensive potential standpoint at running back and o line. And at WR they have 1 good young guy. Lawrence will have to create or wait to be good early.

Wilson!? Is completely fucked in NY. He needs a redshirt year and some talent drafted.

Fields has 2 guys on offense and one hasn’t even begun to hit his prime.

Robinson is a star... but will be better with Fields than Trubisky. Mooney will have similar stats as last year because of chemistry and inexperience and multiple QBs as thev#2 option.

I liked Mitch but Fields has something that Trubisky never had and that’s the support of the organization from the top down. Hopefully he isn’t neutered or coddled by the organization and is allowed to grow organically in a system that he fits in.

 

[JoJoBoxer]

Pretty much spot on IMO, except for Fields and Lance sharing the #1 spot as runners. Lance is an athletic quarterback who was able to put up huge rushing numbers against FCS competition, but in the NFL he’s closer to Donovan McNabb than Lamar Jackson (based on his anecdotal 40 yard dash times in the mid 4.5s). Fields didn’t put up the rushing numbers because Ohio State was very careful with how they used him due to a lack of quarterback depth behind him (and because he was such a good passer that they usually didn’t need his legs to win), but in terms of raw athleticism relative to his size (as measured by his pro-day and SPARQ measurements), he would be in the 98th percentile among running backs. Had he played against FCS competition and been able to run freely, his rushing numbers would have dwarfed Lance’s, and nobody would put them in the same category as runners.

I would like people who put Lance as #1 in potential to compare his potential versus Fields.

Is it just the unknown that gives him the highest potential?

I see Fields as an easy top 5 in potential as a running QB. Is Lance in the top 5?

I see Fields as a potentially more accurate passer than Lance because he already is more accurate.

Does Lance have a higher potential than Fields in the cerebral measurements? Fields has shown that he is very cerebral, learning offenses quickly and being able to integrate what he learned on the field. Has Lance shown that he is better in this respect?

When the play breaks down, Fields is not the best, but has Lance shown being any better?

Is Lance more physically gifted than Fields?

I am not seeing the huge potential of Lance over Fields. Is it because of the coaching staff?

 

[Midway Fields]

'Arm talent' is tough to rank because there are a lot of different ways to complete a pass. Let's look at typical 5 yard out. Someone can rip it in there or drop it towards the sidelines. Different situations can call for different throws, so it's not only being able to do both but also doing the right one based on situation.

Personally I think having touch on throws is the most important. This is not 'accuracy, but rather throwing a catchable ball. Some have better touch on short/medium passes. Some better on deep balls.

For me, arm strength is only good if the player maintains touch. Let's take Mitch Trubisky. Physically he could rip the ball, but he couldn't consistently drop in an easy catchable ball.

There's also another aspect of touch and that's do they still throw a nice catchable ball when going through progressions? Again, think Mitch. As he moved through his reads it seemed like he was rushing the pass. Sometimes this is something fundamental like not setting their feet or the arm motion is too long (think Tebow). Sometimes it's mental where as their internal clock ticks down they rush the pass out.

Anyway, all in getting at is that it's complicated. If I was to judge the top 5 on my 'Arm talent' thoughts it would look like:

1 - Wilson - complete freak. Extremely quick feet, very compact delivery and not only can he flick the ball for 50 yards, it maintains touch. Think Aaron Rodgers.

2 - Lawrence - doesn't have the pure arm of Wilson, but always stays calm and throws with touch.

3 - Jones - only knock is that it seems he has to set his feet to manufacture power. This takes longer and means he has to set up his deep shots.

There’s zero chance Jones has more arm talent than Fields and Lance. Accuracy and anticipation yes.

 

[Midway Fields]

Consider the fact that Jacksonville is fucked from an offensive potential standpoint at running back and o line. And at WR they have 1 good young guy. Lawrence will have to create or wait to be good early.

Wilson!? Is completely fucked in NY. He needs a redshirt year and some talent drafted.

Fields has 2 guys on offense and one hasn’t even begun to hit his prime.

Robinson is a star... but will be better with Fields than Trubisky. Mooney will have similar stats as last year because of chemistry and inexperience and multiple QBs as thev#2 option.

I liked Mitch but Fields has something that Trubisky never had and that’s the support of the organization from the top down. Hopefully he isn’t neutered or coddled by the organization and is allowed to grow organically in a system that he fits in.

I’d expect a jump in Mooney’s production. It’s his 2nd year, he should connect on way more deeper routes with Dalton/Fields.

 

[remydat]

Pretty much spot on IMO, except for Fields and Lance sharing the #1 spot as runners. Lance is an athletic quarterback who was able to put up huge rushing numbers against FCS competition, but in the NFL he’s closer to Donovan McNabb than Lamar Jackson (based on his anecdotal 40 yard dash times in the mid 4.5s). Fields didn’t put up the rushing numbers because Ohio State was very careful with how they used him due to a lack of quarterback depth behind him (and because he was such a good passer that they usually didn’t need his legs to win), but in terms of raw athleticism relative to his size (as measured by his pro-day and SPARQ measurements), he would be in the 98th percentile among running backs. Had he played against FCS competition and been able to run freely, his rushing numbers would have dwarfed Lance’s, and nobody would put them in the same category as runners.

"Lance told NFL Media's Mike Garafolo back in March that a GPS tracker measured his top speed on a touchdown run to be 21.54 miles per hour, which would have ranked 12th in the NFL among all ball-carriers, and the fastest speed of any quarterback in the league."

Lance's elite speed showcased by this story of TD run

Trey Lance didn’t run a 40 time, but don’t question his on-field speed.

www.nbcsports.com

His fastest run allegedly would have beat all QBs last year in the NFL. He is plenty fast.

 

[Visionman]

"Lance told NFL Media's Mike Garafolo back in March that a GPS tracker measured his top speed on a touchdown run to be 21.54 miles per hour, which would have ranked 12th in the NFL among all ball-carriers, and the fastest speed of any quarterback in the league."

Lance's elite speed showcased by this story of TD run

Trey Lance didn’t run a 40 time, but don’t question his on-field speed.

www.nbcsports.com

His fastest run allegedly would have beat all QBs last year in the NFL. He is plenty fast.

But he’s not FIELDS fast...

 

[Bearly]

Consider the fact that Jacksonville is fucked from an offensive potential standpoint at running back and o line. And at WR they have 1 good young guy. Lawrence will have to create or wait to be good early.

Wilson!? Is completely fucked in NY. He needs a redshirt year and some talent drafted.

Fields has 2 guys on offense and one hasn’t even begun to hit his prime.

Robinson is a star... but will be better with Fields than Trubisky. Mooney will have similar stats as last year because of chemistry and inexperience and multiple QBs as thev#2 option.

I liked Mitch but Fields has something that Trubisky never had and that’s the support of the organization from the top down. Hopefully he isn’t neutered or coddled by the organization and is allowed to grow organically in a system that he fits in.

Watch out for Mooney with somebody that actually lead him on deep balls and throw early on breaks.

But he’s not FIELDS fast...

he likely is. Fields may have slightly better quicks. Why I graded that tje same for them and better than the others.