Best PG in the game

[X]

Using the Point Guard Efficiency Equation (PGEE) of averages including points + rebounds (x.75) + assists (x1.33) - turnovers (x2), let's evaluate the five best PG's in question to this point this season.

Rose = 26.6 + 4.6(x.75) + 8.2(x1.33) - 3.7(x2) = 26.68
Westbrook = 23.8 + 5.1(x.75) +8.4(x1.33) - 3.6(x2) = 23.88
Williams = 21.9 + 4.2(x.75) +9.9(x1.33) - 3.6(x2) = 21.98
Paul = 16.5 + 4.9(x.75) + 10.1(x1.33) - 2.5(x2) = 16.58
Rondo = 10.6 + 4.8(x.75) + 14.2(x1.33) - 4(x2) = 10.68

Thoughts?

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Chris Paul.

 

[X]

Chris Paul.

Good input.

The only problem w/ the PGEE is that it, like most stats, doesn't account for the roles players have on their on respective teams. For example, Rose is paid to score...making other players better via assists/rebounds is a plus. Rondo is paid to make assists...improvements via points/rebounds is a plus...

It's flawed, but it's the best I got. :shrug:

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

WTF is with you and CP? You've been slobbering this guy on multiple threads now.

He and Deron Williams are currently the top 2 PGs and I feel as though other Bulls' fans should know it.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Good input.

The only problem w/ the PGEE is that it, like most stats, doesn't account for the roles players have on their on respective teams. For example, Rose is paid to score...making other players better via assists/rebounds is a plus. Rondo is paid to make assists...improvements via points/rebounds is a plus...

It's flawed, but it's the best I got. :shrug:

I think that formula doesn't account for a lot more than that... even on an elementary statistical level, it leaves out a lot.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Well thank you for enlightening us know nothing Bulls fans.

I'm not saying that. You didn't respond on any of the substance in my posts. Instead you seem to be getting hurt feelings that I'm (in your eyes) belittling Rose, even though I'm not.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Like I said in my other post, CP is a great PG but I truly believe that Rose has surpassed him this season. Rose is one of the BEST Overall players in the league right now, let alone PG.

Yeah I just now responded in the other thread.

However, I feel like Chris and Deron are way up there in the top 7 or so players. These 3 guys might all be 1-2-3 in the MVP race right now (with Dwight Howard, Pau Gasol, and Durant in the mix).

 

[Shakes]

Using the Point Guard Efficiency Equation (PGEE) of averages including points + rebounds (x.75) + assists (x1.33) - turnovers (x2), let's evaluate the five best PG's in question to this point this season.

Rose = 26.6 + 4.6(x.75) + 8.2(x1.33) - 3.7(x2) = 26.68
Westbrook = 23.8 + 5.1(x.75) +8.4(x1.33) - 3.6(x2) = 23.88
Williams = 21.9 + 4.2(x.75) +9.9(x1.33) - 3.6(x2) = 21.98
Paul = 16.5 + 4.9(x.75) + 10.1(x1.33) - 2.5(x2) = 16.58
Rondo = 10.6 + 4.8(x.75) + 14.2(x1.33) - 4(x2) = 10.68

Thoughts?

I have a number of problems with your formula:

a) You're making no adjustment for minutes played. When comparing players of similar minutes it makes sense to normalise their stats to per 36/48 numbers.

b) Points by themselves don't tell the story. Efficiency matters. Chris Paul may only be scoring 17 points/36 to Rose's 24, but he's taking 12 shots vs Rose's 20 to do it.

c) You're way over valuing rebounds. Rebounding for point guards is pretty meaningless, statistically the correlation between the number of rebounds a point guard gets and team rebounding is very weak. Jason Kidd has made a career out of grabbing misses the bigs on his team would get anyway.

d) You're over valuing assists. Assists are a fairly crappy measure of passing ability and have a very weak correlation to offensive efficiency. They're also very inconsistently recorded across the league due to each arena having their own scorers. I realise assists are the only measure we really have of passing ability, but hey, that's why the point guard position is the hardest to measure statistically. At the very least there's no way an assist should be worth 1 1/3 points or only 2/3 a turnover.

e) You make no allowances for defense. Even though we don't have great measures of defense there's no reason steals should not be included.

Overall if you want to distill players down to a single number the more established stats like PER, while still not perfect, do a better job than this formula.

 

[Pepe Silvia]

Trying to define it as the best point guard with Rose doesn't make too much sense to me. I mean he plays the position and gets assists, but he is much more than the traditional point guard for us. He has the burden of responsibility of a lot of our scoring for us, which other PG's in the league don't have. Rondo is displaying elite "point guardness" this season distributing the ball so well to a great team but I doubt he could fill in Rose's shoes and do what is asked of him.

I just think Rose is climbing to that superstar level where the traditional positional role is no longer important for him. I guess at this point I would consider him more of a star than a point guard.

 

[Glide2keva]

You don't need ridiculous made up stats, just watch the games.

I'd put Deron and then Rose, but it's VERY close between the two.

 

[Glide2keva]

People who complain about Rose's shots, obviously don't see that he HAS to take those shots. It's mainly due to his teammates not converting open shots and dunks.

All of this efficiency crap is just that, crap.

People act like they want him to pass up open shots in order to satisfy some ridiculous stat. If he's taking that many shots, it's obvious that he has to in order to try and keep us in games.

I'm sick of hearing efficiency this and that, watch some games and not the stat sheets.

 

[WindyCity7]

People who complain about Rose's shots, obviously don't see that he HAS to take those shots. It's mainly due to his teammates not converting open shots and dunks.

All of this efficiency crap is just that, crap.

People act like they want him to pass up open shots in order to satisfy some ridiculous stat. If he's taking that many shots, it's obvious that he has to in order to try and keep us in games.

I'm sick of hearing efficiency this and that, watch some games and not the stat sheets.

hes taking all those shot cuz lou,brew,bog or whoever is jagging open shot after open shot

 

[Glide2keva]

hes taking all those shot cuz lou,brew,bog or whoever is jagging open shot after open shot

Exactly! So those bogus "advanced" stats people love to cling to these days from these fantasy sports leagues don't matter.

 

[WindyCity7]

hes taking all those shot cuz lou,brew,bog or whoever is jagging open shot after open shot

if our guys hit all or 75% of the open shots rose creates for them we would blow everyone out & would average 10-25 more points

 

[ChiTownCliff]

My top 5:

1. Deron Williams. He is complete. He has range with his shot and can post up on smaller PGs on offense. He is great with the ball in his hands and makes big plays. On defense he is strong and fast and a great defender, period.

2. Chris Paul. Much the same as Deron, but a bit faster. I like Deron for his size and ability to post up like Chauncy Billups.

3. Derrick Rose. The best offensive player of the bunch, but an average defender. He forces passes sometimes and therefore gets too many turnovers. Once he takes better care of the ball and plays a bit better defense then we can talk about him being the best.

4. Russell Westbrook. He is almost as good as Rose. Infact he may even be a bit better. He does much of what Derick does, but is a better defender. I gave Rose a nod because of his speed, size, and athletic ability.

5. Steve Nash. Yes, I would take nash over Rondo. Rondo is a one trick pony. His two biggest strengths are assists and steals and those are the two most overrated stats in the game of basketball. Assists rely on another player to hit a shot and the Celtics are shooting over 50% as a team. It is no wonder that Rondo is averaging near 15 per game. How many passes does CP3 to a player who then in turn misses their shot. I would not read to much into assists unless your PG is averaging 2 or 3 per game. The there is an issue. Steals sometime simply mean that a player is able to take risks because the team they are on rotates well on defense. Steals do not make you a great defender, but a defender that takes risks more often. Look at Larry Hughes. He led the NBA in steals per game a few years back. Was he a great defender? Now way! He sucks on defense. The fact that Rondo's two biggest strengths are in such weak stats cause me to take issue with him. I would rather have Nash that is a great playmaker and can hit a jumper.

6. Tony Parker 7. Rajon Rondo

 

[houheffna]

Rose hasn't surpassed Chris Paul after 15 games. I don't think so. Watching the league as much as I do, Paul, Williams, Rondo and Westbrook are all on the same level as Rose at the pg position. All of these teams have been dominant early in the season. Rose may pass them but it will take more than 15 games to prove it...believe that...

 

[WindyCity7]

Rose hasn't surpassed Chris Paul after 15 games. I don't think so. Watching the league as much as I do, Paul, Williams, Rondo and Westbrook are all on the same level as Rose at the pg position. All of these teams have been dominant early in the season. Rose may pass them but it will take more than 15 games to prove it...believe that...

yea agree with that cp3,d.will & westbrook have been ballin

i will never give ronho any props i hate boston i hate the celtics i hate ronho i hate paula i hate kevin garnett until he retires **** ronho he will be ramon sessions when the big three leave or start to decline harder

 

[Chi-Town Brahma]

You don't need ridiculous made up stats, just watch the games.

Couldn't agree more.

The stats are important but I also believe that seeing it with your own eye is a better judge of talent.

opcorn:

 

[Glide2keva]

Couldn't agree more.

The stats are important but I also believe that seeing it with your own eye is a better judge of talent.

opcorn:

That's all I'm saying.

 

[Glide2keva]

Rose has been balling too. I think Bulls fans are falling into this nonsense that other fans are selling and penalizing Rose for his point production.

He does what's needed for the team to win.

That can't be measured with stats.