Bulls Owe It To Fans To Endure Luxury Tax

[PJ Brown]

kukoc4ever wrote:

dougthonus wrote:
As I said, you can blame management as a whole for the poor contract decisions, but to single out Paxson for making errors on decisions of finance which Reinsdorf directly took over and decided makes no sense. If you want to argue that the management team is at fault then go ahead. To blame Paxson in particular makes little sense since he wasn't involved in that particular negotiation. To say "he would have done it if he could", so he's to blame is stupid.

Uncle Jerry is basically indifferent in terms of personnel. In fact, he's really not all that interested in NBA Basketball, other than from a financial standpoint.

Paxson states who he wants. He wanted Ben Wallace. He wanted Deng locked up long term. He wanted Hinrich locked up long term. He wanted Nocioni locked up long term. He knows that he's operating under a salary constraint from his boss. Its not like Paxson says "Give Deng the MLE" and then Uncle Jerry goes crazy and signs him to a huge deal. Paxson is very involved in the dollars and cents aspect and knows he operates under a salary constraint when he does his job.

If you want to hammer Uncle Jerry for a botched negotiation (the coach search from last year comes to mind) he handled or for having too strict a salary constraint, feel free. But the basketball decisions are Paxson's. He has a set amount of money to play with and he plays with it as he sees fit.

That's just not true. Admittedly, while I think he's right, Doug is also speculating a bit about Pax's role, as none of us know exactly what goes on behind closed doors, but there's some whoppers in your quote. JR is far from indifferent to personnel, which is why he takes over on most of the big negotiations. I have no reason to absolve Paxson from any blame. Clearly, he is partially responsible for any player-personnel issues, but JR is the boss, and, most importantly to me, the boss has had public issues with Ben Gordon. Paxson has never had such issues. The boss is the one, even as you imply, who sets the numbers--he's the one who has insisted on not paying the tax. Say whatever you will, but Gordon not signing is on JR first.

 

[cool007]

kukoc4ever wrote:

Deng just doesn't seem to fit this style, based on what we've seen this year.

Salmons fits it more than Deng, IMO. I like having Rose and two guys out there who can both bury the 3 point bomb and take it to the hole themselves.

I agree AND disagree with the Bold part.

Why I agree? Coz since Deng is NOT a 1-on-1 player and not yet a good 3pt shooter, it makes it really hard to play in Vinny's offense.

Why I disagree? Coz Vinny may not even be here next year or after th mid year even. If we get a solid coach who has good experience (I wanted Flip Saunders last year, Rick Adelmann when Skiles was fired) then Deng might be just awesome that we thought he would be (him being healthy would help big time as well).

 

[dougthonus]

Well you did make a compelling case by repeating the same opinion without any facts to back up your perspective.

I think I will continue to believe what all insiders tell me that Reinsdorf really dislikes Gordon while Paxson really likes him and continue to believe that the fact that Paxson was taken off Deng/Gordon negotiations may have impacted the offers to those players.

Maybe it wouldn't have, but maybe it would have. You simply don't know, and to pretend you do is silly. When one guy who loves both players is negotiating then I'm pretty sure the offers may be different from when negotiations shift to a guy who strongly dislikes one of the players and loves the other.

It's not to say that Paxson wouldn't have made a mistake by overpaying Deng/Wallace, but you don't know what he'd have offered him because he wasn't in control of the offer, and in the case of Deng/Gordon his negotiating point (that both are good valuable players) was radically different from that of the one who did make the offers.

 

[PJ Brown]

If anything, I'd probably rank Pax at the bottom of the who to blame for Gordon situation, with JR #1, Gordon and his management #2, and Paxson #3.

 

[kukoc4ever]

dougthonus wrote:
What do you think Jerry's plan was?

I don't think he really has one, other than "don't pay the tax" and "make an acceptable profit." The Bulls are a business first to him. (as is his right)

Paxson has a sandbox to play in that Uncle Jerry provides and Paxson makes the decisions he makes.

Or at least he used to. He punted on being the front man this morning it looks like b/c he could not take the heat.

 

[kukoc4ever]

dougthonus wrote:
Well you did make a compelling case by repeating the same opinion without any facts to back up your perspective.

I think I will continue to believe what all insiders tell me that Reinsdorf really dislikes Gordon while Paxson really likes him and continue to believe that the fact that Paxson was taken off Deng/Gordon negotiations may have impacted the offers to those players.

Maybe it wouldn't have, but maybe it would have. You simply don't know, and to pretend you do is silly. When one guy who loves both players is negotiating then I'm pretty sure the offers may be different from when negotiations shift to a guy who strongly dislikes one of the players and loves the other.

Could you please point me in the direction of the sources that state that Uncle Jerry "strongly dislikes" Gordon?

Didn't the Bulls offer Ben Gordon a large, multi-year deal last summer? Seems like a strange thing to do if you strongly dislike a player.

 

[dougthonus]

Could you please point me in the direction of the sources that state that Uncle Jerry "strongly dislikes" Gordon?

Didn't the Bulls offer Ben Gordon a large, multi-year deal last summer? Seems like a strange thing to do if you strongly dislike a player.

I'll forward you my list of Bulls contacts.

 

[dougthonus]

Paxson has a sandbox to play in that Uncle Jerry provides and Paxson makes the decisions he makes.

Except in this case, where he kicked Paxson out of the sandbox and personally took over negotiations.

However, because you have a long history of hating Paxson, you still blame Paxson for that negotiation which he wasn't involved in. Paxson didn't get to choose Deng's numbers, Reinsdorf did. It's well reported fact.

Maybe Paxson would have choosen the same numbers, we don't know because it didn't happen, so if you think the move sucks (which I think everyone does right now), then blame Jerry, blame management as a whole, blame Foreman (who was also involved heavily), but don't blame the one guy who was removed from the process.

Quite frankly, I've seen you take down a forum already with your brand of discussion and don't have a real long leash for it.

 

[kukoc4ever]

dougthonus wrote:


Quite frankly, I've seen you take down a forum already with your insane idiocy

Yikes! Sorry man, I didn't know I touched such a nerve. I have no issues with you.

Okay, okay, Paxson isn't responsible for the team he is the general manager for. He's great.

Its all on Uncle Jerry, the guy who brought 7 championships to the city of Chicago.

j/k

Go Bulls!

---

I realize that Jerry paid more than he needed to for Deng. To say that Paxson had 0 involvement in the decision to lock Luol Deng up long term for big money isn't correct though.

If Paxson said "Deng isn't the kind of player you want to lock up long term for big money" the deal would not have happened. But Paxson said "Deng is the type of player you want to lock up long term for big money."

Jerry took over the negotiations and likely paid more than he had to for Deng, but the real problem with the Bulls salary structure is that decisions were made to lock up Wallace, Nocioni, Deng and Hirnich long term for big money and to say that the general manager isn't responsible for that is incorrect, IMO.

 

[engies]

dougthonus wrote:

Well you did make a compelling case by repeating the same opinion without any facts to back up your perspective.

I think I will continue to believe what all insiders tell me that Reinsdorf really dislikes Gordon while Paxson really likes him and continue to believe that the fact that Paxson was taken off Deng/Gordon negotiations may have impacted the offers to those players.

Maybe it wouldn't have, but maybe it would have. You simply don't know, and to pretend you do is silly. When one guy who loves both players is negotiating then I'm pretty sure the offers may be different from when negotiations shift to a guy who strongly dislikes one of the players and loves the other.

It's not to say that Paxson wouldn't have made a mistake by overpaying Deng/Wallace, but you don't know what he'd have offered him because he wasn't in control of the offer, and in the case of Deng/Gordon his negotiating point (that both are good valuable players) was radically different from that of the one who did make the offers.

I concur.

I have to ask, from what your sources tell you, is there reasons why Jerry doesn't like him. Is it a personality clash? just doesn't like the way he plays? doesn't like his size? or does it just come down to the fact that Ben has stuck to his wants during the contract negotiations & hasn't budged? (which doesn't make sense since Luol demanded & got more from the Bulls than originally offered an extension, despite having a worse year)

On the subject of the Wallace signing wasn't Ben Wallace's agent a good friend of Reinsdorfs. Again says to me Jerry had some if not alot of influence over that signing.

 

[chi_hawks_23]

If JR truly hates BG, and JR has always set the luxury tax level as the bottom line, then there is no way in hell Ben gets resigned.

Is there any team that would even consider taking Deng? Is Portland still mildly interested?

 

[engies]

kukoc4ever wrote:

dougthonus wrote:


Quite frankly, I've seen you take down a forum already with your insane idiocy

Yikes! Sorry man, I didn't know I touched such a nerve. I have no issues with you.

Okay, okay, Paxson isn't responsible for the team he is the general manager for. He's great.

Its all on Uncle Jerry, the guy who brought 7 championships to the city of Chicago.

Go Bulls!

---

I realize that Jerry paid more than he needed to for Deng. To say that Paxson had 0 involvement in the decision to lock Luol Deng up long term for big money isn't correct though.

If Paxson said "Deng isn't the kind of player you want to lock up long term for big money" the deal would not have happened. But Paxson said "Deng is the type of player you want to lock up long term for big money."

Jerry took over the negotiations and likely paid more than he had to for Deng, but the real problem with the Bulls salary structure is that decisions were made to lock up Wallace, Nocioni, Deng and Hirnich long term for big money and to say that the general manager isn't responsible for that is incorrect, IMO.

What Paxson said publicly may be different than what he said behind close doors. However it may not be. He may have just been relieved that one of the 2 contract negotiations was finally done.

How can you still say it's Paxson's responsibility, when Reinsdorf took that responsibility off him & took controll

Its like if you were the driving a car owned by myself, you were in control until I said okay pull over I'll drive now, then I drove the car and crashed it, how would that be your fault? It would be mine because I took the control of the car off you. I took the keys started the engine & crashed it into a tree. Thats my fault not yours. You could say "well why did Pax let him control it" well i could say the same for you, but the reason you would give me control is because I OWN THE CAR. JERRY OWNS THE TEAM. Paxson has no legal rights to take that away from him.

I'm hoping an analogy like that makes you think a bit more because clearly you are not thinking this through thoroughly enough!

 

[engies]

chi_hawks_23 wrote:

If JR truly hates BG, and JR has always set the luxury tax level as the bottom line, then there is no way in hell Ben gets resigned.

Is there any team that would even consider taking Deng? Is Portland still mildly interested?

I could see that being possible. The Blazers GM has shown he can spend big money before. & they're only really one piece from being a Championship contender. They want a 4 though, maybe we could throw Thomas in as well. is Pryzbilla or whatever his name still under contract. It would give us a big body who can rebound & screen better than tyrus while dumping Luol, or maybe even Kirk

 

[kukoc4ever]

engies wrote:

How can you still say it's Paxson's responsibility, when Reinsdorf took that responsibility off him & took controll

Because the problem isn't the extra million dollars per year that Uncle Jerry may have coughed up (really the big head scratcher was the extra year that was added to the contract) that is impacting the tax decision.

The issue was a systemic problem in the philosophy of the team.

Having Wallace, Deng, Nocioni and Hinrich locked up long term to big bucks has financially hamstrung the team. Paxson decided that those were the guys he wanted locked up for big bucks and he knew he operated under a salary constraint.

Deng is looking like a bad deal, moreso due to the length of the contract. Jerry gave him an extra year b/c he liked him. IMO, that's the benefit that Deng got from Jerry liking him.

But Deng this year made 9.4 mil and next year is on tap to make 10.4 mil. I'm curious as to what people think Deng would have been making per year if Pax handled the deal, given that Paxson really, really liked Deng and wanted him locked up long term for big money.

I think its pretty established that the benefit that Deng got from Reinsdorf was the extra year on the deal.

But that doesn't really matter come lux tax time re: Gordon, yes?

The 800 pound gorilla on the Bulls payroll is the 12.3 million dollars that Miller is making next year. That's all hangover from the bad Wallace and Nocioni signings.

The payroll has been wasted on average to bad players over the last, what, 6 years?

Look at our highest paid players for next year right now. Brad Miller (slightly above average). Luol Deng (average/hurt). Hinrich (average). There is a fixed payroll and its pretty consistently allocated poorly.



----

I know I keep reading about this bitter grudge that Jerry has with Gordon. Its hard to come to grips with the large, multi year deal that Gordon was offered last off-season if that's the case.

 

[engies]

kukoc4ever wrote:

engies wrote:

How can you still say it's Paxson's responsibility, when Reinsdorf took that responsibility off him & took controll

Because the problem isn't the extra million dollars per year that Uncle Jerry may have coughed up (really the big head scratcher was the extra year that was added to the contract) that is impacting the tax decision.

The issue was a systemic problem in the philosophy of the team.

Having Wallace, Deng, Nocioni and Hinrich locked up long term to big bucks has financially hamstrung the team. Paxson decided that those were the guys he wanted locked up for big bucks and he knew he operated under a salary constraint.

Deng is looking like a bad deal, moreso due to the length of the contract. Jerry gave him an extra year b/c he liked him. IMO, that's the benefit that Deng got from Jerry liking him.

But Deng this year made 9.4 mil and next year is on tap to make 10.4 mil. I'm curious as to what people think Deng would have been making per year if Pax handled the deal, given that Paxson really, really liked Deng and wanted him locked up long term for big money.

I think its pretty established that the benefit that Deng got from Reinsdorf was the extra year on the deal.

But that doesn't really matter come lux tax time re: Gordon, yes?

The 800 pound gorilla on the Bulls payroll is the 12.3 million dollars that Miller is making next year. That's all hangover from the bad Wallace and Nocioni signings.

The payroll has been wasted on average to bad players over the last, what, 6 years?

Look at our highest paid players for next year right now. Brad Miller (slightly above average). Luol Deng (average/hurt). Hinrich (average). There is a fixed payroll and its pretty consistently allocated poorly.



----

I know I keep reading about this bitter grudge that Jerry has with Gordon. Its hard to come to grips with the large, multi year deal that Gordon was offered last off-season if that's the case.

You ignored my "crashing the car" analogy that would make it make more sense to you.

I think you have a small point that he did maybe overpay kirk a little bit, but thats in hindsight. At the time itwas a good deal by most in the media.

& as far as Nocioni, I dont believe we should've just let him walk away, & his contract was sufficient

If Pax wasnt taken out of the contract talks he would've balanced the remaining money between Deng & Gordon more than Jerry did. & we dont even know if it was Pax's decision to give Wallace 60 mill over 4 years. Could've well been Jerry's infact it is often thought to have been a move of his doing, if not at least influenced by it

 

[kukoc4ever]

engies wrote:
If Pax wasnt taken out of the contract talks he would've balanced the remaining money between Deng & Gordon more than Jerry did.

What are you basing this on?

Last year Deng made 9.4 mil and next year he's making 10.4 mil.

These are the main numbers that matter for the lux tax re: Deng. (not THE main number though. That would be the 12.5 due to one Bradley Miller)

Do you think that Deng would have accepted 8 and 9 mil if Pax was running the show?

Listen, its well known that Paxson was madly in love with Deng and wanted him locked up long term for big money.

The extra love thrown Deng's way by Jerry was much more that extra year at the end of the deal, not so much the per-year amount that he's making that is impacting the lux tax decision.

 

[engies]

I give up Kukoc4Ever, we have a difference in opinion we'll agree to disagree (though I agree with one thing with you....Kukoc was awesome I'm a fan too)

As for the article I agree wholeheartedly with McGraw. The fans are deserving or this & even so we have the pieces needed in case a big trade comes up, be it expirings or talent

 

[TheStig]

kukoc4ever wrote:

engies wrote:

How can you still say it's Paxson's responsibility, when Reinsdorf took that responsibility off him & took controll

Because the problem isn't the extra million dollars per year that Uncle Jerry may have coughed up (really the big head scratcher was the extra year that was added to the contract) that is impacting the tax decision.

The issue was a systemic problem in the philosophy of the team.

Having Wallace, Deng, Nocioni and Hinrich locked up long term to big bucks has financially hamstrung the team. Paxson decided that those were the guys he wanted locked up for big bucks and he knew he operated under a salary constraint.

Deng is looking like a bad deal, moreso due to the length of the contract. Jerry gave him an extra year b/c he liked him. IMO, that's the benefit that Deng got from Jerry liking him.

But Deng this year made 9.4 mil and next year is on tap to make 10.4 mil. I'm curious as to what people think Deng would have been making per year if Pax handled the deal, given that Paxson really, really liked Deng and wanted him locked up long term for big money.

I think its pretty established that the benefit that Deng got from Reinsdorf was the extra year on the deal.

But that doesn't really matter come lux tax time re: Gordon, yes?

The 800 pound gorilla on the Bulls payroll is the 12.3 million dollars that Miller is making next year. That's all hangover from the bad Wallace and Nocioni signings.

The payroll has been wasted on average to bad players over the last, what, 6 years?

Look at our highest paid players for next year right now. Brad Miller (slightly above average). Luol Deng (average/hurt). Hinrich (average). There is a fixed payroll and its pretty consistently allocated poorly.



----

I know I keep reading about this bitter grudge that Jerry has with Gordon. Its hard to come to grips with the large, multi year deal that Gordon was offered last off-season if that's the case.

Brad Miller's salary isn't killing us. We get a lot of production and use out of him. And that has very little to do with Wallace. The 800 lb gorilla as you like to call it is Tim Thomas and Jerome James. They make as much as Miller but give us absolutely nothing in production and are directly associated to the Larry Hughes and Ben Wallace debacle. Bottom line is, we will be done with them at the end of the year, be thankful we didn't cough up another year when negotiating with Wallace.

 

[TheStig]

kukoc4ever wrote:

engies wrote:
If Pax wasnt taken out of the contract talks he would've balanced the remaining money between Deng & Gordon more than Jerry did.

What are you basing this on?

Last year Deng made 9.4 mil and next year he's making 10.4 mil.

These are the main numbers that matter for the lux tax re: Deng. (not THE main number though. That would be the 12.5 due to one Bradley Miller)

Do you think that Deng would have accepted 8 and 9 mil if Pax was running the show?

Listen, its well known that Paxson was madly in love with Deng and wanted him locked up long term for big money.

The extra love thrown Deng's way by Jerry was much more that extra year at the end of the deal, not so much the per-year amount that he's making that is impacting the lux tax decision.

Actually it does make a difference, if Pax saved 1 mill a yr off of Deng, he would have given it to BG and BG would have taken the deal as he would have been offered at least 6/60 then. So it is huge and a lot of us were saying to split the money between them.

 

[Kush77]

??? ?????? wrote:

That's why I like Mike McGraw the best out of the Chicago beatwriters. No one tells the truth more so than McGraw. I think a lot of the other writers get too caught up in the company line of not paying the luxury tax, where they make it seem like some type of hard barrier, when it is not.

I agree, too many writers mention the luxury tax - when they should be mentioning that we're not OKC or Charlotte, the Bulls can easily afford it.

I've said it over and over, luxury tax should not be an issue for a team in the third largest market in the United States. It's a joke.