bullseye 104

[pinkizdead]

here's the thing. you guys mentioned we can trade our garbage for players. we traded noc gooden and a no name pf for salmons and miller. Really we cant pawn deng off on some1? really? i call bullP) on that one.

 

[Fred]

pinkizdead wrote:

here's the thing. you guys mentioned we can trade our garbage for players. we traded noc gooden and a no name pf for salmons and miller. Really we cant pawn deng off on some1? really? i call bullP) on that one.

The Kings saved money on that deal. Miller was making a ton. You have to get one hell of player in return to trade Luol Deng and save money. I don't see it happening. No GM in his right mind would trade for an oft-injured, athletically-limited 3, whose best assest is the ability to hit the worst shot in basketball (mid-range jumper) UNLESS you're giving up a bad contract or some baggage in return. What makes this even worse...I'm not sure the Bulls would want to trade Luol. They seem to only value loyal players who kiss their ass. Pippen, Jordan, and Gordon didn't fit that mold.

 

[Shakes]

I don't really find the "Deng is such a swell guy and that's why the Bulls love him" theory credible. Didn't Deng get his contract because he wasn't loyal? As I recall he wanted badly to play for Great Britain, and so told the Bulls if he didn't get a contract in time for it he'd sign elsewhere.

 

[Fred]

Shakes wrote:

I don't really find the "Deng is such a swell guy and that's why the Bulls love him" theory credible. Didn't Deng get his contract because he wasn't loyal? As I recall he wanted badly to play for Great Britain, and so told the Bulls if he didn't get a contract in time for it he'd sign elsewhere.

During the tenure of Jim BallBoy-lan, Deng told Reinsdorf he regretted not taking the original 5-year, 57 million, offer he was presented in the summer of 07. Reinsdorf loved Deng admiting he was wrong for nixing Jerry's "generous" offer. Gordon knew that scorers get paid, and he was forced to wait until the summer of 09 to prove the Bulls were low-balling him, and even in the midst of the worst economic collapse since the great depression, he was able to land a deal significantly higher than what JR could muster during robust economic times.

 

[Shakes]

Well as I recall it both players got offers they rejected in 07. In 08 both initially rejected the Bulls first offer. Supposedly Gordon tried to work out a sign and trade, but couldn't come to terms. Deng got a deal after setting a deadline that would allow him to play for GB.

Now I know you think JR is some kind of evil mastermind only out to screw over Ben Gordon and reward the evil twins Deng and Hinrich. However I think he's just a rich man, and you don't get rich by writing cheques for people because you happen to like them. I think it's far more likely management felt Deng singing elsewhere was a credible threat, while they didn't think that about Gordon. I think they were wrong and overpaid Deng, but I think it's because they misjudged the risk of him bolting, not because JR felt like handing over fistfuls of money that day.

 

[houheffna]

They seem to only value loyal players who kiss their ass. Pippen, Jordan, and Gordon didn't fit that mold.

You should pay a fine for putting Gordon in the same sentence with the other two, but anyway. Gordon didn't leave because he didn't kiss ass, he left because he was stupid. Thinking he should be the highest paid player on the team was stupid, he is not good enough to make 15mil. Saying that to the press was even dumber. You sound like Dwyane Wade...unbelievable.

When was Reinsdorf not loyal to Jordan? When was he not loyal to Pippen? You act as if he has shafted these people but at the end of the day, Jordan and Pippen both have good relationships with Reinsdorf...I don't get it.

 

[pinkizdead]

gordon and deng should both be making 8 million a year. hinrich should be making 5-6

 

[pinkizdead]

jj reddick should be an interesting player to sign next year at 1-2 million. we need some shooters, and he's a decent player off the bench.

 

[houheffna]

Dude, Redick will make more than that...that is barely the league minimum...

 

[pinkizdead]

if he gets more than that, i dont know if orlando would match it. they'd be paying double.

 

[houheffna]

You seen VC play? They will double it if they can...

 

[pinkizdead]

didn't he have a decent season in nj last year? how can he play this terribly this year?

 

[Fred]

houheffna wrote:

They seem to only value loyal players who kiss their ass. Pippen, Jordan, and Gordon didn't fit that mold.

You should pay a fine for putting Gordon in the same sentence with the other two, but anyway. Gordon didn't leave because he didn't kiss ass, he left because he was stupid. Thinking he should be the highest paid player on the team was stupid, he is not good enough to make 15mil. Saying that to the press was even dumber. You sound like Dwyane Wade...unbelievable.

When was Reinsdorf not loyal to Jordan? When was he not loyal to Pippen? You act as if he has shafted these people but at the end of the day, Jordan and Pippen both have good relationships with Reinsdorf...I don't get it.

Gordon left because the Bulls pulled a contract off the table he wanted to sign. Then, another team offered him a large contract, and the Bulls decided to keep Hinrich and the cap space. If you were in Gordon's shoes, you would do the same thing. His agent said he should be the highest paid player in 07, when he averaged 20+ for the Best Bulls team since Jordan. Scorers get paid. Go look up Peja's contract and some of the other ones signed in that year. That said, who cares what his agent said. He wanted to sign a deal with the Bulls for 9 million per year. He signed a deal for 11+ with the Pistons.

It's pretty simple. JR showed more loyalty to Jerry Krause than to Phil Jackson, Jordan, and Pippen. And he turned a much higher profit by doing so.
1. Jordan said 1000 times he didn't want to play for the Bulls if Jackson wasn't the coach.
2. Krause told Phil before the 97-98 title that he wouldn't coach the Bulls next year, even if he went 82-0. Reinsdorf should have relieved Krause of GM duties after that statement.
3. You don't give a coach like Phil Jackson ultimatums, especially when you know that letting Phil go would ensure that MJ leaves.

I never said that Reinsdorf wasn't loyal to those who showed him loyalty. But frankly, it's easy to be loyal to Wennington, Krause, Paxson, etc. In the grand scheme of things, being loyal to those guys doesn't really have an effect on the P & L. Showing loyalty to Phil Jackson in the summer of 98 would have cost major, major dollars. Locking him up would have required major outlays of money. It would have also required reassigning Krause, and ending his egomanical desire to see MJ retire so he could finally prove his worth by winning a title without MJ.

 

[houheffna]

Gordon left because he tried to call Reinsdorf's bluff, so Reinsdorf told him to suck it...that is what happened. If Gordon was important enough, he would have been given the contract to sign, even after the deadline, he aint that important, so long...


You blame Reinsdorf for wanting to make more money, but Jordan, Pippen, all of them wanted money. They all got it and JR had something to do with it. Jordan wasn't allowed to pick any coaches. He helped get one or more fired. Reinsdorf showed him a lot of loyalty. That is why Jordan and Reinsdorf are still friends to this day.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=smith_sam&id=1936782

you should read that...I continuously have to put this up because old fables keep poppin up that are not true.

Jordan didn't deserve a part of the franchise...I wouldn't have given him part either because he would want control. As far as Krause goes, Reinsdorf saw him as a positive asset, a viable reason as to why the team was successful. So why would he let him go because Jackson and Jordan wanted it? Jackson wanted to retire way before 98. Lets not act as if Jackson is the most stable minded human being on the planet because that is not the case.

Reinsdorf did all he could to hold the dynasty together, but it was HIS team, not Jordan's...Jordan didn't get to call all the shots, and I am glad he didn't. In my opinion, that team was done anyway. Absolutely done. No need to cry over that like Jordan was 32, he was 35 years old and tired, very tired. Pippen, Rodman...aging fast, and could not thrive as they once did. Phil Jackson was not innocent in this stuff. He had his share of blame too. Lets not act as if he didn't. I have laid out all that Reinsdorf has done for Pippen...several times. And most importantly, those people are over it....way over it. Pippen has reportedly gotten a little cash under the table to help him through tough times. That is why Pip don't criticize Reinsdorf. These people come back to Reinsdorf when they need help and he rarely says no. This is considered a weakness, not a strength. He owes them nothing...good days work for a good days pay. And they all got paid...and then some...

Wade is absolutely wrong and what he tried to do was gamesmanship simply because Chicago is a top player. Jordan, who has stated that Lebron is going to Chicago, might have had something to do with it, but I don't know for sure. That said, they know if Lebron comes to Chicago, Wade will get no rings most likely, especially if Bosh is with him. I really think this has Pat Riley stench all over it.

But lets not act as if what Wade said has credibility because Pippen ain't coaching the team and Jordan isn't the owner.

 

[Fred]

houheffna wrote:

Jordan didn't deserve a part of the franchise...I wouldn't have given him part either because he would want control.

No one in the history of any sport deserved an ownership share more than Michael Jordan. The only reason the United Center has been packed for the past 12 years is because of Michael Jordan. Most of the season ticket holders who pay the large outlays of cash, with the exception of Doug, are Bulls fans because of Michael Jordan. The fat profits Reinsdorf and his fellow stakeholders have made are primarily due to Michael Jordan. This franchsise was a step away from the Chicago Wolves without Michael Jordan.

You could haven given him a stake without control. They chose not to. Instead, they handed the franchise to an incompetant jerk who almost destroyed everything MJ had built. Jordan, as GM, has brought his team to more playoffs than Krause did without MJ. Enough said.

 

[houheffna]

No one in the history of any sport deserved an ownership share more than Michael Jordan. The only reason the United Center has been packed for the past 12 years is because of Michael Jordan. Most of the season ticket holders who pay the large outlays of cash, with the exception of Doug, are Bulls fans because of Michael Jordan. The fat profits Reinsdorf and his fellow stakeholders have made are primarily due to Michael Jordan. This franchsise was a step away from the Chicago Wolves without Michael Jordan.

You could haven given him a stake without control. They chose not to. Instead, they handed the franchise to an incompetant jerk who almost destroyed everything MJ had built. Jordan, as GM, has brought his team to more playoffs than Krause did without MJ. Enough said

Who is baseball's first superstar and the most dominant sports figure in history? Babe Ruth. Nobody....NOBODY dominated a sport like he did...did he have any ownership in the Yankees? Dimaggio? Mantle? Reggie? Any of them? No...hell no. That is a billion dollar corporation. You would think they would give Yogi Berra a piece of the team...no. It all started with Ruth, Yankee Stadium was the "Building Ruth Built"...yet what did he get, a monument like the rest of them, and they propped his ass on the field when he died so that his body could lie in state. And you know what? No complaints. Dimmagio would win 9 championships...did he get ownership of the team at all? I don't remember, but I don't think so.



Do you REALLY think Jordan would want to be just a voice in the crowd? Nothing about Jordan says "silent partner". Jordan was well compensated for his time here. Good luck with the Bobcats.

You bring up Krause...Krause as GM would win 6 rings, you brag about Jordan going to the playoffs once as if it was an accomplishment. The team that Krause put together in 1994 without Jordan is far superior to the Bobcats. For you to even dare to compare Krause to Jordan as GMs is ridiculous.

So what is the precedent?

Russell own part of the Celtics?
Kareem own part of the Lakers?
Bird wanted a part of the Celtics, but they said "no thank you".
Magic owns part of the Lakers...but he is 10x the businessman that Jordan is. It makes good business sense to have Magic on the board of any team, of any business. He is very successful and has a hands-on approach to his businesses, doesn't need his golf buddies to handle his business for him. I would much rather have Magic here running the team than Jordan.

Your Pippen argument is like the rest of your argument...no legs. They offered him opportunity after opportunity.

So I don't blame Reinsdorf one bit. This is Jordan not wanting to see the Bulls on top for the next decade, this is Wade knowing that if Lebron comes to Chicago, he has no shot, It was a petty shot at a premiere franchise on the rise, who has a chance to get what could be the greatest ever here in a Bulls uniform.

I just hope Lebron and his team are smarter than that crap Wade spewed...bogus...

 

[TheStig]

Fred, what player has ever been given a share of a team? And why would you want MJ around, everything he touched has turned to crap since he retired. MJ is the greatest player of all time but is a terrible fo guy. Why would you want him around in more than a meaningless role?

 

[houheffna]

And explain to me how Reinsdorf showed more loyalty to Krause than Jordan, Pippen and Jackson? Explain that. I don't believe Krause gave Reinsdorf an ultimatum. He was loyal to all parties involved, which is why he has no beef (seemingly) with all involved to this day. I have already shown proof that Jordan was the one who ended everything...not Reinsdorf, not Krause...Jordan. And Krause was just one of many reasons why Jordan couldn't do it any longer.

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

And explain to me how Reinsdorf showed more loyalty to Krause than Jordan, Pippen and Jackson? Explain that. I don't believe Krause gave Reinsdorf an ultimatum. He was loyal to all parties involved, which is why he has no beef (seemingly) with all involved to this day. I have already shown proof that Jordan was the one who ended everything...not Reinsdorf, not Krause...Jordan. And Krause was just one of many reasons why Jordan couldn't do it any longer.

Jordan wasn't the one who ended it. Please. You can bring up the Sam Smith article all you want. Sam was taking a different side to it and there's lots of parts in that article that don't make sense, and are over-exaggerated to try and make his case.

Technically Jordan could have came back in 1999 and forced JR's hand. The public pressure would have been overwhelming. So technically Sam taking that point of view is right. Jordan walked away. But that's also a very simplistic way to look at it. It goes far deeper than the Summer of 1998 and late 1998.

Why did Jordan leave? There was much more to it than that. When people get divorced it usually doesn't happen overnight. It takes months or years of problems to get to that point. That's what happened with the Bulls.

JR was willing to bring people back in 1999, but the damage was already done. He allowed the damage to happen. Nice try, but too late. Sam smith and Hou will give credit to JR for trying. But my point of view is you allowed the relationships to deteriorate. That's the problem.

If you know termites are eating away at your house, you call an exterminator. You don't wait until parts of the house start falling off before you call the exterminator. JR was too late. The damage was done.

 

[TheStig]

Kush, the point was that they could have come back. There was nothing holding back Phil and MJ but Phil and MJ. People work in hostile work environments all the time and when your successful you put up with that crap. Both MJ and Phil were being rewarded like no one else in their field for their work. Sure, JR could have separated Krause from the process a bit like he did with Pax recently and had a go between or been the go between but you act as if everyone at works sings and holds hands in perfect harmony. Haven't you ever worked under a rude or bad or incompetent boss? It certainly didn't hold back the product any.

I'm not saying it wasn't a factor but MJ had a really really hard year, was old, tired, barely won the ring and had the opportunity to come out on top. Is there any better memory going out then the shot? The bulls weren't getting any younger and couldn't bring in any more help for him. I think had he known for sure of a lock out season, he might have come back but from my memory, the line in the sand was already drawn.