bullseye 104

[Kush77]

If you need some more proof about Sam Smith's misleading article, read this paragraph from it.

"He (Michael Jordan) couldn't stand playing with Scottie Pippen anymore. He was furious at Pippen for again missing a final game of the playoffs, as with the migrane episode of 1990."

Again missing a final playoff game????? As I recall Scottie Pippen played in both Game 6 vs. Utah in 1998 and Game 7 vs Detroit in 1990.

From the 1990 Game 7 recap:
Pippen was hampered by a migraine headache. Between trips to the bench for ice-pack treatments, he managed just two points and four rebounds in 45 minutes.

Box score from Game 6 vs. Utah in 1998:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199806140UTA.html

So how exactly did Scottie Pippen "again" miss a final playoff game when he NEVER missed a final playoff game to begin with??? To say someone flat out lied is harsh. But I don't know what better way to describe it? Sam Smith just flat out lied in his column to try and make his point. The point being Jordan was frustrated and wanted to leave. But Sam is just making up reasons that Jordan was supposedly frustrated.

Here's another doozy from Sam.
"And there as another $30-plus million waiting for Jordan. But he felt he had to carry too much burden that season, with Pippen's halfhearted season and Rodman's unpredictability."

Pippen's "halfhearted season." Really? Really?
Now the motives for Scottie Pippen having the surgery before the start of the season as opposed to after the 1997 NBA Finals is up for debate. But that's NOT the point I'm making here.

Once Scottie Pippen took the court for the Bulls vs. Golden State in Jan of 1998 the was NOTHING halfhearted about his effort. So I don't know where Sam gets this. It's just another misrepresentation about what happened. Halfhearted is how I would describe the effort of a Ben Wallace during the 2007-2008 season. Not Scottie Pippen.

Sam is basically trying to say Jordan is the real reason the Bulls broke up and to make his case he's just making up stuff. So I really don't give the article much credence, because if he's willing to flat out lie (like with Pippen supposedly missing two playoff games that he played 45 and 26 minutes in) then what else is Sam lying about in this article? Sorry if I don't take it as gospel.

I guess he thought he could get away with lying by writing an article 6 years after the dynasty was broken up. But I'm not falling for it.

It's one thing for a fan to maybe not remember every detail. But for Sam Smith - who writes at the beginning of this piece - "well, I was there." It's irresponsible and I would expect a lot better from him.

 

[houheffna]

Kush, that was one pathetic ass sermon man...because that article totally disproves those cockamamie rumors that you and everybody else want to believe, you grasp at straws to disprove it? Give me a break...

Smith was talking about the fact that Jordan was pissed at Pippen over the migrane situation. In both game 7 against Utah and that game against Detroit, Pippen left early because of injuries. In case you didn't know, Pippen was asked if he could play, Jordan told the trainer something along the lines of "Yes! He better play!"

Pippen tried, it didn't go well, mentally and physically exhasted, Pippen broke down in tears after that game. See what Pippen did after that Utah game, personally thanking Michael for winning that game? Pippen was in no shape to continue playing, and Jordan wasn't the type to understand how players couldn't play unless they were dead.

Pippen's early exits in those games were almost as if he didn't play at all. And that is the way Jordan saw it...both times.

And don't give me that "Pippen gave his all" stuff. He intentionally held off his surgery in protest for not getting a new contract. That was his choice. He could have had the surgery months before. That is what Jordan was pissed about. And I don't blame him for that. Jordan was absolutely right to think that at 35, he needed a strong Pippen to win another championship. Pippen was thinking about himself and not the team and Jordan didn't like it. Pippen gave his all WHEN he was on the court. I think Jordan might disagree that Pippen put the team first in making his decisions concerning his health. That is what pissed Jordan off.

They offered Jackson a big contract for multiple years...he didn't want that contract, because he didn't get along with Krause, and he wasn't going to be part of a rebuilding process...history shows that. He does not want to be a part of any rebuilding. He wants to win immediately.

Those little attacks at that article are insignificant to what the crux of Sam Smith's argument was: Believe the fairy tale if you want, reality is reality.

I am sorry if your hero, not JR was the one that bailed out on the Bulls dyansty, maybe he saw that it was done. I could see it. But whatever the thinking was, all JR did was look at Pippen, Jordan, Jackson and Krause as significant parts to a dynasty. That is good business because JR was right. He didn't want to get rid of anybody.

Are you saying that the Pippen trade that Krause had planned wasn't true?
Are you saying that Jordan wasn't mentally fatigued?
Are you saying that the Bulls didn't try to retain Jackson's services?
Are you saying that JR didn't overrule Krause to save the dynasty in previous years?
Are you saying that Jordan didn't have as much if not more to do with the dynasty's end as anyone?



If so...prove it....a boxscore from 1990 does not disprove Sam Smith's argument, its a meager footnote that is minute comparable to the article's text.



Sam Smith pissed in your Air Jordans and gatorade with that article and you can't stomach it. Well...the truth hurts...

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

Kush, that was one pathetic ass sermon man...because that article totally disproves those cockamamie rumors that you and everybody else want to believe, you grasp at straws to disprove it? Give me a break...

Smith was talking about the fact that Jordan was pissed at Pippen over the migrane situation. In both game 7 against Utah and that game against Detroit, Pippen left early because of injuries. In case you didn't know, Pippen was asked if he could play, Jordan told the trainer something along the lines of "Yes! He better play!"

Pippen tried, it didn't go well, mentally and physically exhasted, Pippen broke down in tears after that game. See what Pippen did after that Utah game, personally thanking Michael for winning that game? Pippen was in no shape to continue playing, and Jordan wasn't the type to understand how players couldn't play unless they were dead.

Pippen's early exits in those games were almost as if he didn't play at all. And that is the way Jordan saw it...both times.

And don't give me that "Pippen gave his all" stuff. He intentionally held off his surgery in protest for not getting a new contract. That was his choice. He could have had the surgery months before. That is what Jordan was pissed about. And I don't blame him for that. Jordan was absolutely right to think that at 35, he needed a strong Pippen to win another championship. Pippen was thinking about himself and not the team and Jordan didn't like it. Pippen gave his all WHEN he was on the court. I think Jordan might disagree that Pippen put the team first in making his decisions concerning his health. That is what pissed Jordan off.

They offered Jackson a big contract for multiple years...he didn't want that contract, because he didn't get along with Krause, and he wasn't going to be part of a rebuilding process...history shows that. He does not want to be a part of any rebuilding. He wants to win immediately.

Those little attacks at that article are insignificant to what the crux of Sam Smith's argument was: Believe the fairy tale if you want, reality is reality.

I am sorry if your hero, not JR was the one that bailed out on the Bulls dyansty, maybe he saw that it was done. I could see it. But whatever the thinking was, all JR did was look at Pippen, Jordan, Jackson and Krause as significant parts to a dynasty. That is good business because JR was right. He didn't want to get rid of anybody.

Are you saying that the Pippen trade that Krause had planned wasn't true?
Are you saying that Jordan wasn't mentally fatigued?
Are you saying that the Bulls didn't try to retain Jackson's services?
Are you saying that JR didn't overrule Krause to save the dynasty in previous years?
Are you saying that Jordan didn't have as much if not more to do with the dynasty's end as anyone?



If so...prove it....a boxscore from 1990 does not disprove Sam Smith's argument, its a meager footnote that is minute comparable to the article's text.



Sam Smith pissed in your Air Jordans and gatorade with that article and you can't stomach it. Well...the truth hurts...

Hou don't try it. Sam lied. He said Pippen MISSED the games. Bottom line. MISSED.

Sorry.

 

[houheffna]

Dude, is that all you got? That is super lame...to point out that Pippen played in those two games, that Smith erroneously said he missed, makes the whole article wrong? I take it Jordan Rules is wrong too now because Smith said Pippen missed those games? A simple grammatical error nullifies the argument? That is lame as hell, and you KNOW what Sam Smith was talking about...give me a break.

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

And don't give me that "Pippen gave his all" stuff. He intentionally held off his surgery in protest for not getting a new contract. That was his choice. He could have had the surgery months before.

Ha ha hou. I knew you were gonna pull that card. And this proves that you didn't read my post because this is what I wrote in the post.

Now the motives for Scottie Pippen having the surgery before the start of the season as opposed to after the 1997 NBA Finals is up for debate. But that's NOT the point I'm making here.

I wrote that because I knew you would try to change the subject to a point I wasn't making. I'm aware fo what happened prior to the 1997/98 season. I don't need it explained to me, I just outlined it in my post. Pippen's season wasn't halfhearted. When he got on the court he gave it his all and the Bulls wouldn't have won the title without him. Had the Bulls won Game 5 Scotie Pippen would have been Finals MVP. Scottie Pippen's D on Mark Jackson was tone of the main reasons the Bulls beat Indiana.

He played in the second half vs. Utah and he played 45 MINUTES vs Detroit in 1990. According to Sam Smith Scortie Pippen "MISSED" the games.

Yeah, the truth hurts. Sorry Hou. Sam lied.

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

Dude, is that all you got? That is super lame...to point out that Pippen played in those two games, that Smith erroneously said he missed, makes the whole article wrong? I take it Jordan Rules is wrong too now because Smith said Pippen missed those games? A simple grammatical error nullifies the argument? That is lame as hell, and you KNOW what Sam Smith was talking about...give me a break.

Sorry Hou, that's not something you "erroneously" miss when you COVER the Chicago Bulls for a living.

An honest mistake would have been saying Pippen had his migraine in 1989 as opposed to 1990. That would be a honest mistake.

To say he "MISSED" the games is a flat out lie. Don't try to tell me Sam Smith didn't know Scottie Pippen played in those games.

He used the word MISSED.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/missed

I'm sorry, when you cover a team for how ever many year, you don't make that mistake.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

Tiger Woods' money is from endorsements. The Beatles are worth 3Billion...half of them are dead. Their music sells itself, they don't even own their own music catalog. They just sign off on what they will allow their names and faces to be used, but they don't sit in boardrooms and make business decisions, others do that. Tiger Woods is a professional athlete, he doesn't sit in boardrooms 4 or 5 days a week, he hires others to do that. Magic Johnson sits in the boardroom. He visits his theaters and his coffee shops, he makes appearances at the openings. Totally different type of businessman from Jordan, who was never in his office when he was VP of Player Personnel with the Bobcats. That is why I say Magic is 10x the businessman, I am not talking about the business, I am talking about the men behind the business...

Could it be MJ wasn't at the bobcats office because he was in his own boardroom? He certainly spends time with his racing team. I doubt he doesn't take a personal interest in his cash cow with the air jordan brand.

 

[houheffna]

This is what the argument has come to...pathetic...

"Sorry Hou"???

Why don't you bring Sam Smith on your show, talk to him about the article, and then point out to him that because he said Pippen missed two games he played in, the article is wrong from start to finish...writers make mistakes, happens all the time. He will probably blame it on poor editing...and then proceed to kick your ass with reality. Something you obviously can't handle.

 

[houheffna]

Could it be MJ wasn't at the bobcats office because he was in his own boardroom? He certainly spends time with his racing team. I doubt he doesn't take a personal interest in his cash cow with the air jordan brand.

Yeah, and that racing team is losing money...thanks for proving my point.

 

[Kush77]

Kush77 wrote:

houheffna wrote:

Pippen tried, it didn't go well, mentally and physically exhasted, Pippen broke down in tears after that game. See what Pippen did after that Utah game, personally thanking Michael for winning that game? Pippen was in no shape to continue playing, and Jordan wasn't the type to understand how players couldn't play unless they were dead.

Pippen's early exits in those games were almost as if he didn't play at all. And that is the way Jordan saw it...both times.

Nice try defending Sam, but swing and a miss. There wasn't any early exits by Scottie Pippen. He played 45 minutes vs. Detroit - so exactly when did he "early exit?"

And vs. Utah he played in the 2nd after, I believe, he got a shot in his back. He was on the court in the second half.

I believe that's Scottie Pippen in the #33 red jersey as the Bulls are celebrating their 6th title. So again - where are these early exits? you always talk about fables and fairy tales but Sam Smith seems to have a lot of them in that article.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0KbGDtF1Fg&feature=related

 

[TheStig]

Kush77 wrote:

TheStig wrote:

Kush, I really don't think he wanted to come back. JR was willing to bring Phil back, it was never disputed. He was willing to pay Pip and MJ. MJ just looked really tired in the finals. Pip had back issues, Kukoc was decent but not a no2, MJ had the flu, he just looked so worn down. I really think that had a lot to do with it. We didn't have anything to make us better and we were a really old team. Rodman was old, MJ was old, Harper was old, Pip was getting up there and it was just Kukoc in his prime.

MJ is MJ, Pip is Pip, Phil Phil but you can only do so much. Krause was a key piece of the org, you can't just fire him because you don't like him. Management clearly say something in Floyd and wanted him to be the future. If Phil came back there was no doubt he'd run the team and if they came back, it wouldn't be for a year or two more anyway. Sure things could have been done to make things better but they played together over the entire decade and were worked.

Phil left, he was sick of the b.s, and I don't blame him. Phil wouldn't have left if there wasn't so much b.s with management.
JR held a presser and offered Phil a chance to come back for 1 year. It was a phoney PR attempt knowing Phil wouldn't accept. It was a way for JR to save face.

Sam Smith says in that article that JR offered Phil a multi-year deal. But Sam conveniently leaves out WHEN that deal was offered. Sam writes this from his article.
"Phil Jackson was exiting, too, but not because the Bulls pushed. Jackson admits Reinsdorf offered him a long-term deal to remain, but Jackson had this thing about the number of years players would listen to a coach and had set it at seven years with the Bulls. He now was through nine and promised himself he'd leave no matter what. It was only appeals from players that brought him back in 1996. He was determined nothing would change his mind this time."

Sam is so cleaver in the way he describes the situation. He says Phil was offered a long-term deal. But WHEN? Sam leaves that out. We know the long-term deal wasn't offered after the 1998 season. But Sam leaves out the year to give you the impression that it WAS offered after the 1998 season. It wasn't. JR made his PR move and offered Jackson 1 more year. In 1998 Jackson had just come off 2 consecutive 1-year contracts. Why would he all of the sudden accept a 3, 4 or 5-year deal? That doesn't make sense.

So JR probably offered Phil the long-term deal after the 72-10 season (1996). But Phil decided to go the year by year route. We know Phil doesn't like to take on teams rebuilding. So he wasn't gonna sign a 5-year deal in 1996 (that would expire after the 2000/01 season) because MJ could retire in 98 or 99 and Phil would be stuck in a deal. Sure he could walk away, but I'm sure there would have been limits on how long he'd have to sit out before he could accept another job etc.. He couldn't walk away from a contract with the Bulls and just sign a huge deal with LA. Unless JR just let him out. Maybe he would, who knows?

"It was only appeals from players that brought him back in 1996."
Really? Really? You just had the most successful season in NBA history, won coach of the year (for the first and only time) and had a chance to cash in on it big time personally. And it took players' persuasion to bring him back? I find that very hard to believe.

"Jackson had this thing about the number of years players would listen to a coach and had set it at seven years with the Bulls. He now was through nine and promised himself he'd leave no matter what."
This is another thing that makes me scratch my head. Something tells me that the coach of a 6-time world championship team wouldn't have to worry about being tuned out. Jordan lobbying for Jackson that entire offseason would make me think that, 1 - Jordan sure as hell wasn't tuning him out. And, 2 - Jordan was willing to come back in 1999.
Why would Jordan keep saying he would only play for Phil if he wasn't planning on coming back. And if Sam's paraphrase of what Phil said is true, then Phil was wrong because they Bulls won 2 more titles despite Phil's 7 years theory. The Bulls didn't tune him out in 1997 or 1998. Probably wouldn't have tuned him out in 1999.

As for the team itself during the 1998 season. I think it's a bit overblown how tired or old they were. I might make a separate post about this. You mixed up the year with the MJ flu thing, that was 97.

As for 1998, the Bulls still were tied for the best record in the NBA. And that was with Pippen missing 2 1/2 months. If Pippen was there the whole season the Bulls probably win 65-67 games. That would have been the third straight year the Bulls would of had the best record in the NBA. A team that wins that many games in a three-year span all of the sudden wouldn't fall off.

Pippen would have been fine in 1999. Rodman was getting up there. He was actually the oldest because he entered the league at 25 years old. Kukoc could have picked up some slack and Jordan still would have gave you 27-28 ppg.

As far as help, I don't remember the free agent crop in 1999, or exactly how the rules were before the new CBA post-lockout. But maybe the Bulls could have got a veteran that was looking for a ring on the cheap? Similar to what Payton and Malone did with the Lakers in 2003. Again, I don't know if there was an actually impact veteran that would have done it. But the veteran didn't have to be as good as Payton or Malone. Someone like Brian Williams in 1997 would have been fine. But even then I think the Bulls would have won the title.

The 8th seeded Knicks won the East in 1999. And I think the Bulls would have beat the Spurs.

Kush, why that year? Phil had gone through so many years that why would that last year make him want to quit? It wasn't even a very volatile year between him and Krause from what I remember. That whole team just looked tired and battered in the playoffs, barely coming out of Indy and MJ looked warn down. the regular season took a lot out of him. I think they stood a very fair chance after the lockout year but things were decided before then. I just can't point out that anyone was the definitive reason like you can. There was just too many on and off the court issues.

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

This is what the argument has come to...pathetic...

"Sorry Hou"???

Why don't you bring Sam Smith on your show, talk to him about the article, and then point out to him that because he said Pippen missed two games he played in, the article is wrong from start to finish...writers make mistakes, happens all the time. He will probably blame it on poor editing...and then proceed to kick your ass with reality. Something you obviously can't handle.

Yeah, a guy who's covered the Bulls for 20+ years somehow forgot that the 2nd best player in franchise history actually didn't MISS two important playoff game in the history of the franchise. Okee Dokee!

Sam knew what he was doing when he used the word missed and halfhearted. He was trying to manipulate the readers 6 years after the events of 1998.

Seems like you're the one that can't handle it. Sorry Hou. Truth hurts.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

Could it be MJ wasn't at the bobcats office because he was in his own boardroom? He certainly spends time with his racing team. I doubt he doesn't take a personal interest in his cash cow with the air jordan brand.

Yeah, and that racing team is losing money...thanks for proving my point.

Are you his accountant or something? How do you know what he makes and from what? Secert IRs guy?

 

[TheStig]

Kush77 wrote:

houheffna wrote:

This is what the argument has come to...pathetic...

"Sorry Hou"???

Why don't you bring Sam Smith on your show, talk to him about the article, and then point out to him that because he said Pippen missed two games he played in, the article is wrong from start to finish...writers make mistakes, happens all the time. He will probably blame it on poor editing...and then proceed to kick your ass with reality. Something you obviously can't handle.

Yeah, a guy who's covered the Bulls for 20+ years somehow forgot that the 2nd best player in franchise history actually didn't MISS two important playoff game in the history of the franchise. Okee Dokee!

Sam knew what he was doing when he used the word missed and halfhearted. He was trying to manipulate the readers 6 years after the events of 1998.

Seems like you're the one that can't handle it. Sorry Hou. Truth hurts.

Damnit Kush, you broke the conspiracy. I would run before the guys in suits get to your house.

 

[Kush77]

TheStig wrote:

Kush, why that year? Phil had gone through so many years that why would that last year make him want to quit? It wasn't even a very volatile year between him and Krause from what I remember. That whole team just looked tired and battered in the playoffs, barely coming out of Indy and MJ looked warn down. the regular season took a lot out of him. I think they stood a very fair chance after the lockout year but things were decided before then. I just can't point out that anyone was the definitive reason like you can. There was just too many on and off the court issues.

Actually the start of the 1997/98 year was a very volatale year. I'm gonna make a separate post about it, but not tonight.

That year started with training camp where Krause made the infamous "players don't win titles organizations do" comment.

There was also a trade that year where Krause traded Jason Caffey to Golden State for a player named David Vaugh, I believe. He played 1 game with the Bulls, then he was released.

If you believe in conspiracy theories, it was said Krause made that trade to try and weaken the Bulls. Hurt their chances of winning the title in 1998 so blowing up the team would be an easier choice. Easier to be accepted by the public.

I know the first thing that will be said is "oh yeah Jason Caffey, he was a big deal ha ha ha" But that's not the point. It was a trade that didn't need to be made, especially since you released Vaughn after 1 game. And the point is that's just another little petty thing that Krause did with Phil.

Vaughn actually played 3 games.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/v/vaughda02.html

The point is why would trade a young Pf that gives you're team depth. And if you want trade Caffey, fine. But why release the guy you traded for. I think they got a 2nd rounder too. But was that a trade that needed to happen, no.

 

[houheffna]

Are you his accountant or something? How do you know what he makes and from what? Secert IRs guy?

You can try to disprove my point, or ask a silly question...your choice...be my guest...

 

[houheffna]

Nice try defending Sam, but swing and a miss. There wasn't any early exits by Scottie Pippen. He played 45 minutes vs. Detroit - so exactly when did he "early exit?"

And vs. Utah he played in the 2nd after, I believe, he got a shot in his back. He was on the court in the second half.

I believe that's Scottie Pippen in the #33 red jersey as the Bulls are celebrating their 6th title. So again - where are these early exits? you always talk about fables and fairy tales but Sam Smith seems to have a lot of them in that article.

I see manipulation, but it ain't from Sam Smith. Now, again, bring him on your show...the swing and a miss here is your whole premise for your argument, and after going through the article, this is all you can find to disprove? You never answered any of my other questions, you continue on this point, even after I stated that Smith made a mistake. Good grief man...

Again, prove that those statements were wrong...and try not to push commentators as reporters, Mariotti and Telander don't cut it.

Of course Krause wanted the run to end, that is a known fact. He thought it was on its last legs anyway. And what does that have to do with Reinsdorf?

Krause believing that the team was at the end of its run is part of his job as a GM. Reinsdorf should have fired him because he felt that way? He overruled him! That is not enough for you?

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

Are you his accountant or something? How do you know what he makes and from what? Secert IRs guy?

You can try to disprove my point, or ask a silly question...your choice...be my guest...

I'm not MJ's accountant or financial advisor or business manager, he doesn't confide his business dealings to me.

 

[houheffna]

I'm not MJ's accountant or financial advisor or business manager, he doesn't confide his business dealings to me.

I know you are not his accountant, he don't like basketball retards around his money....okay that was uncalled for, just having fun...

Its public knowledge. ESPN said it on their profile of him also. It is something he loves to do and he doesn't gain profits much from it, he just enjoys it. That is all.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

I'm not MJ's accountant or financial advisor or business manager, he doesn't confide his business dealings to me.

I know you are not his accountant, he don't like basketball retards around his money....okay that was uncalled for, just having fun...

Its public knowledge. ESPN said it on their profile of him also. It is something he loves to do and he doesn't gain profits much from it, he just enjoys it. That is all.

Something tells me that he will turn a profit in the long run.