Castro and Cubs reach a seven year deal

DewsSox79

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^Do you use BR-WAR of Frangraphs WAR? And we aren't allowed to use WAR here or Dewey explodes :shifty:

Fangraphs is the only place to use metrics.

And yes, WAR has been exploited as now even the big "metric heads" on the radio are starting to get away from it.

according to BF last week barwin barney has the 8th best WAR in MLB, weighs too heavily on defense. That is how aweome WAR is.
 

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Fangraphs is the only place to use metrics.

And yes, WAR has been exploited as now even the big "metric heads" on the radio are starting to get away from it.

according to BF last week barwin barney has the 8th best WAR in MLB, weighs too heavily on defense. That is how aweome WAR is.

I put more value on BR-WAR. Hey, his defense is just that good man. Certainly a playing one of 9 defensive positions can accumulate value just as hitting at one of 9 spots in the lineup can.

And he is 9th now.
 

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And using a good stat isn't getting away with anything.
 

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If you use WAR, he was worth about 14 million last year. That's pretty nice to have out of a SS. That being said, he will never get market value before he hits free agency. That would be just stupid of the Cubs. That's like Hank Hill car shopping and paying the sticker price for a car. Why pay that when you can get it cheaper?

No way he'd get 5 million in his first year of arby. I think the split is 20/50/80(for three years, of course. With next year being an early year, it's almost certainly going be low, in the 20% of market value range). So if we say that he's been worth 30 million (7.7*4) over 3 years, that's 10 per year. You're looking at about 2 million for him this year. Then 5 for 2014, 8 for 2015. So we're looking at a bit less. Plus he gets this money guaranteed. I think this is a very fair deal. For both sides. Thinking that he would get market value is not going to fair well for you.

I think that the biggest cause of concern is his free swinging ness. He is shaping into a lower part of the order hitter. His BB rate has fallen, while his swinging at pitches out of the zone rate has risen. I mean even if he isn't the superstar bat we all want him to be, he's still a solid hitter and that with good defense at SS is wonderful. I just hope that if he continues this free swinging ness they put him lower in the order(as we get better players and the players we have out perform him), because I know that it will be easy to put him at the top because that's what people want, but it's not necessarily going to be what is best for the team.

And yet, if you use actual market examples and not faulty stats... you'd actually see where he'd be right in line with the extension that Hanley Ramirez got, within a couple of mil here and there anyway. Especially if you take into consideration the shift in in extending young players long term, the inflation of markets, and the fact that he's on track to put up similar performances overall (minus some HR power, but better defense) as Ramirez did following his extension, he's pretty much right there. Ramirez's extension was $5.5M in 2009, $7M in 2010, and $11M in 2011 to buy out his arbitration years. This is probably close to what Castro actually got... and not far off from what I am suggesting in the post you are responding to. After this Ramirez gets $15M in 2012, $15.5M in 2013, and $16M in 2014. Overall, his extension was 6 years/$70M. Castro got 7 years/$60... I suggested 6 years/$60. I also make a case for up to $79M is the FO went year-by-year steps as was the case with Hendry as the GM.

No, I'm not trying to suggest that Castro is as good as Hanley Ramirez is right now. Clearly he's not. He might come close at some point, but he's not there now. I'm comparing contract extensions and their value... as Ramirez's extension was the last major one for a similarly-aged SS (Castro is 22, Ramirez was 25). We also know that contract values only rise once the precedent has been set. Tulo's extension does not fit, as his first extension was granted only after his 1st full season (1.75 years of MLB service time)... and while he was still a year from possible arbitration (I'm not sure if he was a Super 2 or not). It was also done the year before Ramirez's extension was.

As for the rest of this, it's just crap. Take a look at what he's been doing since Rowson took over. His pitches/PA have gone from 3.1 while with Rudy in the dugout to 3.9 with Rowson's approach. His Ks have dropped from 17.4% while Rudy was still here, to 12.6% under Rowson's tutelage... and this has dropped in the past 5 days as well. Walk rate? 6.5% with Rowson, 2.3% with Rudy still in charge. Power is up with Rowson as well (5 HR, 5 3B, 9 2B with Rudy in 252 AB or a rate of .075 XBH/AB - 7 HR, 3 3B, 7 2B in 214 AB with Rowson or a rate of .079 XBH/AB with Rowson).

Coming into this season Castro walked about 5.2% of the time. This season so far: 4.2%... time with Rowson, 6.5%. Strike out rate for his career prior to this season was 13.7%. This year he sits at a whopping 15.2%, with Rowson, 12.6%. Pitches/PA in 2010 was 3.63, 2011 - 3.67, this year - 3.38, with Rowson 3.91.

Yes, clearly he's transformed directly into a free swinging hack that's not improving in any way... and would be a bottom of the lineup kind of guy. -note the sarcasm- I mean, all he's shown since Rowson has taken over is a trend of walking 46 times, striking out 88 times, compiling 21 HR, 21 2B, and 9 3B through 700 PA (650 AB).

The only thing that's actually down are his doubles and singles. If you actually watch a game now and then, you'll see that the defense has been shading him up the middle since early June, and possibly earlier than that. This is one of those things I keep telling you that you can't find in stats or box scores. Most of his balls in play were going up the middle, and half of them were grounders up the middle. Also, the vast majority of the outs he was committing were on ground balls up the middle. Over the past 3 weeks, adjustments have been made. We're starting to see them bear fruit now. Over 65% of his balls in play over the past 20 games have gone to the right side of the field. The majority of his hits have been going through a hole at 2B created by the up-the-middle shift placed upon him. Thus, his singles are back on the rise over the past 10 games... as is his BABiP. The issue with his doubles being down is the fact that the 3B has been getting pulled away from the line to fill the hole at SS. If you track the game logs and the split stats, you'll see that all but 17 of his career doubles (about 80%) have gone to either LF or RF. 32 of those doubles have been pulled into LF... 19 of which have been pulled as bouncers through the hole between SS and 3B, and eventually rolling out to the corner in LF. With the shift of the 3B filling this hole, his doubles have dropped. What we've seen over the past couple of weeks has been more line drives pulled over the 3B's head, rather than hard bouncers. Thus, his doubles over the past few games have begun to rise again.

It's starting to show, as coming into today, Castro was hitting .353/.405/.529/.935 with 1 HR, 3 2B, 3 BB and 2 K over his past 9 games (37 PA, 34 AB). Today he went 3/8 2B, 3B, BB, K in both games. That makes his slash line .357/.413/.571/.984 over his last 11 games. Clearly the slump has been busted... and a lot of it has to do with finally adjusting to a defensive shift after changing his approach at the plate to something dramatically more patient. I hope it continues, because if he's learning to hit to all fields, and to wait for drivable pitches... while taking more walks and striking out less... we could end up with a big time player in a couple of years.
 

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^ While this has been a fun post to read, I'd caution the use of small-ish sample sizes to make any solid conclusions. The trends are nice to see, though. I think you'd need another season of stats after this one is done with before you can say with any conviction what effect the new coach has had on Castro. And while Castro might be a #6 or #7 hitter NOW, what he is in the future remains to be seen.

The use of comparables was discussed in the MLBTR article and elsewhere, but the 6 year/$50MM benchmark sounded about right to me based on what guys like McCutchen and Justin Upton got. Those guys are better than Castro but I think the fact that Castro plays SS and is younger works to keep his contract value at that level. The use of WAR isn't ideal but the fact is that you can assign a monetary value to every additional win a player can earn for the team. I can't find it right now but I've often read that a win can cost anywhere between $5-$6.5MM per before you take into account the suppression of value due to the cost controlled years.

It'd definitely be nice if he is out of the slump though :D And it'd be perfect timing for the Cubs to have finalized the extension while he was on the slump.
 

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As an aside, I went to check when certain stats become reliable and it seems walk rate are reliable at about 200 plate appearances, but OBP and SLG need about 500 PA. So we'll likely have to wait before passing judgment here. Ironically FanGraphs is notorious for writing long-winded articles about how Player X is coming out of his slump on annoyingly small sample sizes.
 

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^ While this has been a fun post to read, I'd caution the use of small-ish sample sizes to make any solid conclusions. The trends are nice to see, though. I think you'd need another season of stats after this one is done with before you can say with any conviction what effect the new coach has had on Castro. And while Castro might be a #6 or #7 hitter NOW, what he is in the future remains to be seen.

The use of comparables was discussed in the MLBTR article and elsewhere, but the 6 year/$50MM benchmark sounded about right to me based on what guys like McCutchen and Justin Upton got. Those guys are better than Castro but I think the fact that Castro plays SS and is younger works to keep his contract value at that level. The use of WAR isn't ideal but the fact is that you can assign a monetary value to every additional win a player can earn for the team. I can't find it right now but I've often read that a win can cost anywhere between $5-$6.5MM per before you take into account the suppression of value due to the cost controlled years.

It'd definitely be nice if he is out of the slump though :D And it'd be perfect timing for the Cubs to have finalized the extension while he was on the slump.

The problem with using Upton and McCutchen... they're OFs. They play positions where you expect offensive output. Thus, they don't get paid quite the same rate as an offensively strong SS, especially one that has been playing excellent defense for the past 3 months. It's not exactly comparable.

If you go back to Jimmy Rollins' extension in 2004... it's quite similar to what Castro's appears to be... and the performances to the extension dates are pretty similar as well. Account for market inflation, and it's pretty spot-on.

I also agree that signing him now would be perfect timing with him coming out of a slump. That's partly why I was surprised to see it come down so soon. I'd think Kinzler would be seeing he signs of Castro busting the slump and wait a couple of more weeks to squeeze out a couple more mil for his agent.
 

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As an aside, I went to check when certain stats become reliable and it seems walk rate are reliable at about 200 plate appearances, but OBP and SLG need about 500 PA. So we'll likely have to wait before passing judgment here. Ironically FanGraphs is notorious for writing long-winded articles about how Player X is coming out of his slump on annoyingly small sample sizes.

It appears that I had a post disappear... so I'm going to try this again. If the previous post shows up, feel free to delete this one.

The problem with slumps is that the slump itself is a small sample size of stats... so is the time previous to the slump and the time after. Most slumps usually only last a month. Castro's is a particularly long slump at 2 months. Even with that, we're talking right around 200 PAs. That's not even half of the 500 PA range you mention here for certain things. If that's the standard, then the only way a player ever actually has a slump is if he's had an entire bad year. The only way it's proven he's out of such a slump is if he goes an entire year with high numbers. Even if you still call Castro's past couple of months a slump, he's going to have to hit over .300 until next June to prove he's out of it if we go wit the 500 PA sample size. I'm not making a year-long analysis here, Rice... or a shift in career stats. I'm merely showing the trends of what appears to be coming from this new approach that so many feel has destroyed Castro.

All you get are small samples sizes when it comes to slumps, so it's a bit harsh to suggest that you absolutely have to use large sample sizes to prove a slump is over... or to say that consistent trends over the course of weeks aren't reliable either. I did use more evidence than just stats here. I mean, what happens when a guy goes through a 3-week slump, pulls out of it with excellent numbers for a month, then goes back into a 2 week long slump? Did he ever slump at all... or did he just never truly pull out of it? Or... could it be those whacky trends of baseball players being up and down within each and every season they play?
 

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As Goldstein and Kasper have said a million times....on a descent roster he is a 7th place hitter.

And they have said that is what he is right now. However, he is hitting for more power this season, and he has put up a .340+ OBP in the previous two seasons. If he puts it all together in one season that is pretty stacked lineup to have a guy with 20 HR pop and a 340 OBP in the 7th spot.
 

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It appears that I had a post disappear... so I'm going to try this again. If the previous post shows up, feel free to delete this one.

The problem with slumps is that the slump itself is a small sample size of stats... so is the time previous to the slump and the time after. Most slumps usually only last a month. Castro's is a particularly long slump at 2 months. Even with that, we're talking right around 200 PAs. That's not even half of the 500 PA range you mention here for certain things. If that's the standard, then the only way a player ever actually has a slump is if he's had an entire bad year. The only way it's proven he's out of such a slump is if he goes an entire year with high numbers. Even if you still call Castro's past couple of months a slump, he's going to have to hit over .300 until next June to prove he's out of it if we go wit the 500 PA sample size. I'm not making a year-long analysis here, Rice... or a shift in career stats. I'm merely showing the trends of what appears to be coming from this new approach that so many feel has destroyed Castro.

All you get are small samples sizes when it comes to slumps, so it's a bit harsh to suggest that you absolutely have to use large sample sizes to prove a slump is over... or to say that consistent trends over the course of weeks aren't reliable either. I did use more evidence than just stats here. I mean, what happens when a guy goes through a 3-week slump, pulls out of it with excellent numbers for a month, then goes back into a 2 week long slump? Did he ever slump at all... or did he just never truly pull out of it? Or... could it be those whacky trends of baseball players being up and down within each and every season they play?

I agree with everything you said and I believe the best way to evaluate a player long-term is to use full seasons worth of data, but it's definitely nice to see up-trends rather than down-trends.

It's kind of like how people blast guys like Aramis Ramirez for always sucking in April and then he always ends up right around his career norms.
 

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#TheoCheap
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Does this kill any chance of him being traded :thinking:
 

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But buying three or more expensive years now often provides the best long term value. Not without risks, but the Cubs buying all of his 20s now is likely to work in the long run for the team.
 

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Does this kill any chance of him being traded :thinking:

It would make it less likely that he is traded, but it would seem very unlikely that the Cubs would give him a NTC. So it certainly isn't impossible.
 

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But buying three or more expensive years now often provides the best long term value. Not without risks, but the Cubs buying all of his 20s now is likely to work in the long run for the team.

Yup, if he pans out, then they have a couple choices...pay him out the nose for another extension, or with a cost-controlled contract, send him off for a better prospect package than they might have received otherwise. Or let him go for a draft pick. But most likely this is going to save a shit-ton of money because he's getting paid about half of what he would've received on the free market.
 

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As Goldstein and Kasper have said a million times....on a descent roster he is a 7th place hitter.

Len Kasper?

^Do you use BR-WAR of Frangraphs WAR? And we aren't allowed to use WAR here or Dewey explodes :shifty:

FG.

Fangraphs is the only place to use metrics.

And yes, WAR has been exploited as now even the big "metric heads" on the radio are starting to get away from it.

according to BF last week barwin barney has the 8th best WAR in MLB, weighs too heavily on defense. That is how aweome WAR is.



That's exactly why I don't like BR. BR's WAR says that Barney is worth 3 WINS, not runs, but wins with his glove. I don't believe that anyone is that good defensively. FG on the other hand says he is worth a single win, which IMO is more believable.

I put more value on BR-WAR. Hey, his defense is just that good man. Certainly a playing one of 9 defensive positions can accumulate value just as hitting at one of 9 spots in the lineup can.

And he is 9th now.

That's just it. His defense isn't that good.

And yet, if you use actual market examples and not faulty stats... you'd actually see where he'd be right in line with the extension that Hanley Ramirez got, within a couple of mil here and there anyway. Especially if you take into consideration the shift in in extending young players long term, the inflation of markets, and the fact that he's on track to put up similar performances overall (minus some HR power, but better defense) as Ramirez did following his extension, he's pretty much right there. Ramirez's extension was $5.5M in 2009, $7M in 2010, and $11M in 2011 to buy out his arbitration years. This is probably close to what Castro actually got... and not far off from what I am suggesting in the post you are responding to. After this Ramirez gets $15M in 2012, $15.5M in 2013, and $16M in 2014. Overall, his extension was 6 years/$70M. Castro got 7 years/$60... I suggested 6 years/$60. I also make a case for up to $79M is the FO went year-by-year steps as was the case with Hendry as the GM.

No, I'm not trying to suggest that Castro is as good as Hanley Ramirez is right now. Clearly he's not. He might come close at some point, but he's not there now. I'm comparing contract extensions and their value... as Ramirez's extension was the last major one for a similarly-aged SS (Castro is 22, Ramirez was 25). We also know that contract values only rise once the precedent has been set. Tulo's extension does not fit, as his first extension was granted only after his 1st full season (1.75 years of MLB service time)... and while he was still a year from possible arbitration (I'm not sure if he was a Super 2 or not). It was also done the year before Ramirez's extension was.

As for the rest of this, it's just crap. Take a look at what he's been doing since Rowson took over. His pitches/PA have gone from 3.1 while with Rudy in the dugout to 3.9 with Rowson's approach. His Ks have dropped from 17.4% while Rudy was still here, to 12.6% under Rowson's tutelage... and this has dropped in the past 5 days as well. Walk rate? 6.5% with Rowson, 2.3% with Rudy still in charge. Power is up with Rowson as well (5 HR, 5 3B, 9 2B with Rudy in 252 AB or a rate of .075 XBH/AB - 7 HR, 3 3B, 7 2B in 214 AB with Rowson or a rate of .079 XBH/AB with Rowson).

Coming into this season Castro walked about 5.2% of the time. This season so far: 4.2%... time with Rowson, 6.5%. Strike out rate for his career prior to this season was 13.7%. This year he sits at a whopping 15.2%, with Rowson, 12.6%. Pitches/PA in 2010 was 3.63, 2011 - 3.67, this year - 3.38, with Rowson 3.91.

Yes, clearly he's transformed directly into a free swinging hack that's not improving in any way... and would be a bottom of the lineup kind of guy. -note the sarcasm- I mean, all he's shown since Rowson has taken over is a trend of walking 46 times, striking out 88 times, compiling 21 HR, 21 2B, and 9 3B through 700 PA (650 AB).

The only thing that's actually down are his doubles and singles. If you actually watch a game now and then, you'll see that the defense has been shading him up the middle since early June, and possibly earlier than that. This is one of those things I keep telling you that you can't find in stats or box scores. Most of his balls in play were going up the middle, and half of them were grounders up the middle. Also, the vast majority of the outs he was committing were on ground balls up the middle. Over the past 3 weeks, adjustments have been made. We're starting to see them bear fruit now. Over 65% of his balls in play over the past 20 games have gone to the right side of the field. The majority of his hits have been going through a hole at 2B created by the up-the-middle shift placed upon him. Thus, his singles are back on the rise over the past 10 games... as is his BABiP. The issue with his doubles being down is the fact that the 3B has been getting pulled away from the line to fill the hole at SS. If you track the game logs and the split stats, you'll see that all but 17 of his career doubles (about 80%) have gone to either LF or RF. 32 of those doubles have been pulled into LF... 19 of which have been pulled as bouncers through the hole between SS and 3B, and eventually rolling out to the corner in LF. With the shift of the 3B filling this hole, his doubles have dropped. What we've seen over the past couple of weeks has been more line drives pulled over the 3B's head, rather than hard bouncers. Thus, his doubles over the past few games have begun to rise again.

It's starting to show, as coming into today, Castro was hitting .353/.405/.529/.935 with 1 HR, 3 2B, 3 BB and 2 K over his past 9 games (37 PA, 34 AB). Today he went 3/8 2B, 3B, BB, K in both games. That makes his slash line .357/.413/.571/.984 over his last 11 games. Clearly the slump has been busted... and a lot of it has to do with finally adjusting to a defensive shift after changing his approach at the plate to something dramatically more patient. I hope it continues, because if he's learning to hit to all fields, and to wait for drivable pitches... while taking more walks and striking out less... we could end up with a big time player in a couple of years.

Sample size.

One thing I do agree with you on is that I think Rudy being gone will help him. Rudy was known for swing hard and crush the ball. I like a hitting coach who will preach patience over crushing the ball.

#TheoCheap
#RickettsCheap


Does this kill any chance of him being traded :thinking:

I really hope you're being sarcastic about them being cheap...
 

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Len Kasper?



FG.

[/COLOR]


That's exactly why I don't like BR. BR's WAR says that Barney is worth 3 WINS, not runs, but wins with his glove. I don't believe that anyone is that good defensively. FG on the other hand says he is worth a single win, which IMO is more believable.



That's just it. His defense isn't that good.



Sample size.

One thing I do agree with you on is that I think Rudy being gone will help him. Rudy was known for swing hard and crush the ball. I like a hitting coach who will preach patience over crushing the ball.



I really hope you're being sarcastic about them being cheap...

He's mocking daddies3angels, not seriously calling him cheap. D3A had a whole #rickettscheap rant for months on end.
 

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And they have said that is what he is right now. However, he is hitting for more power this season, and he has put up a .340+ OBP in the previous two seasons. If he puts it all together in one season that is pretty stacked lineup to have a guy with 20 HR pop and a 340 OBP in the 7th spot.

no goldstein has mentioned as well as kasper that is what he will be. no with the OBP and numbers from last year I see your point...2+2=4 so that would be nice if he collected all attributes at once and was that type of hitter.

I think a lot has to do with advanced scouting with him. I think he is still a raw player with "potential" to be very good and I believe other teams are starting to figure him out. he obviously needs to make a counter adjustment. his at bats remind me of viciedo without the power....approach and quick at bats.
 

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Len Kasper?



FG.

[/COLOR]


That's exactly why I don't like BR. BR's WAR says that Barney is worth 3 WINS, not runs, but wins with his glove. I don't believe that anyone is that good defensively. FG on the other hand says he is worth a single win, which IMO is more believable.



That's just it. His defense isn't that good.



Sample size.

One thing I do agree with you on is that I think Rudy being gone will help him. Rudy was known for swing hard and crush the ball. I like a hitting coach who will preach patience over crushing the ball.



I really hope you're being sarcastic about them being cheap...

len kasper is on 670 the score once a week. there should be some podcasts of him discussing it.

I have no idea when darwin fucking barney became robbie alomar but thats how he is portrayed in the media. sad.
 

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