CBE 92: An Analysis of Kirk from 2005-2010

Fred

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During the 05-06 regular season, Kirk scored 20 or more 23 times, 4 times in the playoffs, for a total of 27 times.

During the 06-07 regular season, Kirk scored 20 or more 30 times.

Since the start of the 07-08 season...until today....almost 3 full season....Kirk has scored 20 or more 12 times. In this span:

a. Only 2 of those times came against teams with a winning record.

b. None of these games came against teams who won a playoff series.

c. 7 half of the 12 games have come against Minnesota (3), Indiana(2), and the Knicks(2).

Despite Earning over 30 million in the past 3 seasons.
Despite being asked to be one of the top 3 offensive options in the majority of those games.
Despite continued adoration from the fanbase.

He was paid to bring it on the offensive end. He's failed. Kirk Hinrich is the most overrated player I’ve ever seen in a bull’s uniform. It’s not even close. Simply put, this guy plays his best against the worst teams.

Let’s first look at the history of this contract. Kirk signed that contract October of the 06. He held out all offseason for more money. He signed it at the last possible moment. The Bulls didn’t put any artificial deadlines on their favorite son, like they did on some other, more worthy players.

In fairness to Kirk and the Bulls, this contract was signed after the 06 playoffs against the Heat. This was the highlight of his career as a Bull. He was the 2nd leading scorer on the 05-06 team that season, averaging almost 16 per game.

05-06
23 games of 20 or more points.
4 in the playoffs for a total of 27.

05-06
87 games (81 + 6 Playoffs)
41.8% from the field
37% from 3 –point range
15.9 PPG
Playoffs
41.5
34% 3 –point range
Averaged 20.5 PPG in that series against the Heat.

ESPN.com
Nov. 1st 2006
After landing the marquee free agent of the offseason in Ben Wallace, the Bulls have convinced point guard Kirk Hinrich to sign a long-term extension -- and for a hometown discount.

The Chicago Tribune cited league sources on Tuesday saying that the Kansas product has agreed to a five-year deal worth $47.5 million. The extension kicks in for the 2007-08 with the first year paying approximately $11.42 million and then tailing off to about $8 million in the final year.

If Hinrich had not accepted the deal by 11:59 p.m. Tuesday, he would have become a restricted free agent next summer and the Bulls would have had the opportunity to match any offer.

Bulls executive vice president of basketball operations John Paxson was equally happy.
In his third season in the league last year, Hinrich averaged 15.9 points and 6.3 He was a somewhat surprise edition to the U.S. National team that played in this summer's FIBA World Championship.

Hinrich and his representatives had been asking for money similar to the six-year, $66 million deal Tony Parker signed with the Spurs on the eve of the 2004-05 season, but a look around the league revealed that not many teams could fit him under the salary cap for that kind of money.

The Tribune reported that Hinrich and Paxson recently had a private meeting where it is thought that the former Bulls guard convinced his current one that he could be part of something big in Chicago.

As recently as Sunday, however, Hinrich said he didn't think the deal would get done in time. But it did, and he signed it only a few hours before the Bulls opened their season with a 108-66 victory over the Miami Heat.


06-07 season, the best season in Bulls history in the post Jordon era, 49 wins. He averaged during the regular season, and he shot the ball extremely well.

He scored 20 or more THIRTY times during the 06-07 regular season.

IT’S ALL DOWNHILL FROM HERE.

The most successful playoffs in the Post-Jordon era, where we swept the Heat, and the 6 games against the Pistons, 10 playoff games total, Hinrich was a non-factor. He played terribly on the offensive and defensive ends.

37%, 30% 3-point line. We won 6 playoff games that year in spite of Kirk Hinrich.

Since the start of the 2007-08 season, until today, Kirk has scored 20 points or more 12 times.

Only 2 of those times came against teams with a winning record.

None of these games came against teams who won a playoff series.

7 half of the 12 games have come against Minnesota (3), Indiana(2), and the Knicks(2).

2007-2008 SEASON
11.2 million dollars.

In 75 games last year, he scored more than TWENTY against:

1. Indiana (38 points)
2. Mike D’Antoni coached Suns (31 points)
3. Miami (24 points)
4. New York Knicks (20 points)
5. Minnesota (27 points)
6. Houston (22 points) (Skiles fired a few days later)

Kirk Hinrich
07-08
14% during clutch time,
12% from 3-point range

2008-2009 SEASON
10 million

1. Milwaukee (31)
2. Mike D’Antoni coached New York Knicks (25)
3. Indiana (20)
4. Detroit (24)

Clutch stats: 30%, 20% from 3-point range.

This year:
Minn 20
Minn 20

At the halfway point this year, his shooting numbers were 38, 35, 69…yet I’m reading he ‘s the glue holding the team together instead of “All Hail Derrick Rose”.

This year's team has a:
a. All star version of Rose
b. Highly Improved Noah
c. Fantastic interior defender in Taj Gibson
d. Fewer injuries than the previous team.

Yet, we'll be a .500 team. And he'll receive none of the blame.
 

Dpauley23

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Fred wrote:
During the 05-06 regular season, Kirk scored 20 or more 23 times, 4 times in the playoffs, for a total of 27 times.

During the 06-07 regular season, Kirk scored 20 or more 30 times.

Since the start of the 07-08 season...until today....almost 3 full season....Kirk has scored 20 or more 12 times. In this span:

a. Only 2 of those times came against teams with a winning record.

b. None of these games came against teams who won a playoff series.

c. 7 half of the 12 games have come against Minnesota (3), Indiana(2), and the Knicks(2).

Despite Earning over 30 million in the past 3 seasons.
Despite being asked to be one of the top 3 offensive options in the majority of those games.
Despite continued adoration from the fanbase.

He was paid to bring it on the offensive end. He's failed. Kirk Hinrich is the most overrated player I’ve ever seen in a bull’s uniform. It’s not even close. Simply put, this guy plays his best against the worst teams.

Let’s first look at the history of this contract. Kirk signed that contract October of the 06. He held out all offseason for more money. He signed it at the last possible moment. The Bulls didn’t put any artificial deadlines on their favorite son, like they did on some other, more worthy players.

In fairness to Kirk and the Bulls, this contract was signed after the 06 playoffs against the Heat. This was the highlight of his career as a Bull. He was the 2nd leading scorer on the 05-06 team that season, averaging almost 16 per game.

05-06
23 games of 20 or more points.
4 in the playoffs for a total of 27.

05-06
87 games (81 + 6 Playoffs)
41.8% from the field
37% from 3 –point range
15.9 PPG
Playoffs
41.5
34% 3 –point range
Averaged 20.5 PPG in that series against the Heat.

ESPN.com
Nov. 1st 2006
After landing the marquee free agent of the offseason in Ben Wallace, the Bulls have convinced point guard Kirk Hinrich to sign a long-term extension -- and for a hometown discount.

The Chicago Tribune cited league sources on Tuesday saying that the Kansas product has agreed to a five-year deal worth $47.5 million. The extension kicks in for the 2007-08 with the first year paying approximately $11.42 million and then tailing off to about $8 million in the final year.

If Hinrich had not accepted the deal by 11:59 p.m. Tuesday, he would have become a restricted free agent next summer and the Bulls would have had the opportunity to match any offer.

Bulls executive vice president of basketball operations John Paxson was equally happy.
In his third season in the league last year, Hinrich averaged 15.9 points and 6.3 He was a somewhat surprise edition to the U.S. National team that played in this summer's FIBA World Championship.

Hinrich and his representatives had been asking for money similar to the six-year, $66 million deal Tony Parker signed with the Spurs on the eve of the 2004-05 season, but a look around the league revealed that not many teams could fit him under the salary cap for that kind of money.

The Tribune reported that Hinrich and Paxson recently had a private meeting where it is thought that the former Bulls guard convinced his current one that he could be part of something big in Chicago.

As recently as Sunday, however, Hinrich said he didn't think the deal would get done in time. But it did, and he signed it only a few hours before the Bulls opened their season with a 108-66 victory over the Miami Heat.


06-07 season, the best season in Bulls history in the post Jordon era, 49 wins. He averaged during the regular season, and he shot the ball extremely well.

He scored 20 or more THIRTY times during the 06-07 regular season.

IT’S ALL DOWNHILL FROM HERE.

The most successful playoffs in the Post-Jordon era, where we swept the Heat, and the 6 games against the Pistons, 10 playoff games total, Hinrich was a non-factor. He played terribly on the offensive and defensive ends.

37%, 30% 3-point line. We won 6 playoff games that year in spite of Kirk Hinrich.

Since the start of the 2007-08 season, until today, Kirk has scored 20 points or more 12 times.

Only 2 of those times came against teams with a winning record.

None of these games came against teams who won a playoff series.

7 half of the 12 games have come against Minnesota (3), Indiana(2), and the Knicks(2).

2007-2008 SEASON
11.2 million dollars.

In 75 games last year, he scored more than TWENTY against:

1. Indiana (38 points)
2. Mike D’Antoni coached Suns (31 points)
3. Miami (24 points)
4. New York Knicks (20 points)
5. Minnesota (27 points)
6. Houston (22 points) (Skiles fired a few days later)

Kirk Hinrich
07-08
14% during clutch time,
12% from 3-point range

2008-2009 SEASON
10 million

1. Milwaukee (31)
2. Mike D’Antoni coached New York Knicks (25)
3. Indiana (20)
4. Detroit (24)

Clutch stats: 30%, 20% from 3-point range.

This year:
Minn 20
Minn 20

At the halfway point this year, his shooting numbers were 38, 35, 69…yet I’m reading he ‘s the glue holding the team together instead of “All Hail Derrick Rose”.

This year's team has a:
a. All star version of Rose
b. Highly Improved Noah
c. Fantastic interior defender in Taj Gibson
d. Fewer injuries than the previous team.

Yet, we'll be a .500 team. And he'll receive none of the blame.

The thing with Hinrich is that he's really inconsistent. He either going to have a 7-11 game or 1-9 game. This team is damn good when Hinrich plays well, but overall he probably does more harm than good
 

Shakes

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Fred, I know being anti-Hinrich is your shtick, but maybe it's time to move on.

I mean if you seriously think there's been more on Hinrich being a glue guy than Rose becoming an all-star I don't know what to tell you. In fact about the only person who hasn't primarily been focused on Rose is some podcasting guy who is still fighting the Gordon is better than Hinrich war, a fact that nobody worth taking seriously has been debating for years.

I think you've done the topic of Kirk Hinrich to death. I mean at this point I don't think there's many people who think Hinrich has lived up to his contract, at best we're just debating the amount he's fallen short by.
 

Donovangian

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Fred you are my hero and I have to defend you from our brethren claiming that your anti Kirk. This is not about kirk not living up to his contract. This is about Captain Kirk's shooting percentage is so poor in games particularly in the 4th that it makes him a liability when hes on the floor.
 

Shakes

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I've got no problem with the pointing out Kirk's play has been disappointing aspect of what Fred does (well, I think he harps on it a bit much and it gets repetitive, but otherwise it's valid). My main complaint is the way he makes out like there's actually a vast pro-Kirk conspiracy out there. Nobody worth taking seriously thinks Kirk is playing well.

I mean we apparently couldn't even get an expiring for him, if there are all these people who love him, apparently none of them work for NBA teams.
 

TheStig

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There isn't a cast pro-kirk conspiracy? Then how does he get away with it? What Fred doesn't have in there is games kirk has played less than 20 min because he picked up cheap fouls threw a fit and sat on the bench for half the game like he did often enough the last couple of years. Though I will give him, its not been much of a problem this year. Kirk is the least consistent player on this team in the past, between picking up a couple quick falls, the 3-10 kirk special and no upside, he is just so frustrating to watch.
 

Fred

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Shakes wrote:
Fred, I know being anti-Hinrich is your shtick, but maybe it's time to move on.

I mean if you seriously think there's been more on Hinrich being a glue guy than Rose becoming an all-star I don't know what to tell you. In fact about the only person who hasn't primarily been focused on Rose is some podcasting guy who is still fighting the Gordon is better than Hinrich war, a fact that nobody worth taking seriously has been debating for years.

I think you've done the topic of Kirk Hinrich to death. I mean at this point I don't think there's many people who think Hinrich has lived up to his contract, at best we're just debating the amount he's fallen short by.

The whole point of this podcast was debunking the "He does exactly what the Bulls ask of him" B.S. I've read it here...i've received emails with it...I've heard it on the radio. The Bulls expect offense from him, and he hasn't brought it for the past 3 seasons. Your absolutely right that I've argued this topic to death, and I'm done focusing on it. I've tried to stop talking about BG, and I only reference him when someone eggs me on. But I felt the need to point out that this guy has sucked (for the most part) since the start of the 07-08 season on the offensive end, almost 3 full seasons, because far too many fans and media think he's the Bulls Player of the Decade.
 

clonetrooper264

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So we're done discussing Kirk now too? Good. This was getting as bad as Ben Gordon. Accept and move on...our management isn't too bright when it comes to signing players. Blah blah blah Kirk sucks blah blah blah Ben Gordon is amazing blah blah blah. I'm tired of this. Let's focus on Rose and Noah huh?
 

TheStig

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lol at the line about kirk is second in the league in fiestyness behind the phoenix suns gorilla. That was great.
 

pinkizdead

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hinrich is scoring a double double in fiestyness and hustle.

i agree wholeheartedly. the media has painted a certain picture of certain players that forces us to overlook their ineffective play/overloook other effective play.
 

houheffna

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He is a decent player as was his teammates up until Noah and Rose joined the team. He is a decent, unspectacular player. He never got any better than he was in 2007 and I really didn't expect him to. He can play ball, he is not a scrub...and he is very expendable.
 

Shakes

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Fred wrote:
Shakes wrote:
Fred, I know being anti-Hinrich is your shtick, but maybe it's time to move on.

I mean if you seriously think there's been more on Hinrich being a glue guy than Rose becoming an all-star I don't know what to tell you. In fact about the only person who hasn't primarily been focused on Rose is some podcasting guy who is still fighting the Gordon is better than Hinrich war, a fact that nobody worth taking seriously has been debating for years.

I think you've done the topic of Kirk Hinrich to death. I mean at this point I don't think there's many people who think Hinrich has lived up to his contract, at best we're just debating the amount he's fallen short by.

The whole point of this podcast was debunking the "He does exactly what the Bulls ask of him" B.S. I've read it here...i've received emails with it...I've heard it on the radio. The Bulls expect offense from him, and he hasn't brought it for the past 3 seasons. Your absolutely right that I've argued this topic to death, and I'm done focusing on it. I've tried to stop talking about BG, and I only reference him when someone eggs me on. But I felt the need to point out that this guy has sucked (for the most part) since the start of the 07-08 season on the offensive end, almost 3 full seasons, because far too many fans and media think he's the Bulls Player of the Decade.

I do think people say nice things about Hinrich to stir you up, so you probably hear it more. I hope you are moving on, I would like to hear you rant on something else. ;)

As far as "He does exactly what the Bulls ask of him", I know it was a theme last year when we had more offensive options. I don't really think I've heard it so much this year, when we've needed him to step up and he hasn't. Even Funk & King say Hinrich needs to be more aggressive and not pass up threes nearly every game.

I mean I'm more disappointed than anyone we haven't seen 16 points on good three point shooting Hinrich this year because I actually expected we would. He looked like he was shooting well last year in a more limited role, and I thought with the increased shots he would be back to where he was. That he hasn't stepped up has knocked at least 5 wins off the team's total, as well as making himself unable to be traded for even an expiring. That's really screwed us, I do think the org felt that Kirk would increase in value this year and it's a reason we didn't dump him at the trade deadline last year.
 

TheStig

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I'm personally tired of hearing that if we traded Kirk, we wouldn't make the playoffs. I don't view him as an interigle piece of the team. He is very expendable at this point and is not the glue that holds the team together. Rose, Noah, Deng and to a lesser extent Taj are the team. Its no wonder we are struggling without our real glue guy in Noah. I felt BG could have been a big piece going forward but even without him I would rather be able to offer a 5/55 deal to someone this summer. That could be *** or Lee depending on who we sign as the main piece.
 

Shakes

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I don't know if I'd describe Noah as a glue guy.To me "glue guy" means someone who contributes in a non-obvious way. Noah's contributions on the boards are pretty obvious. We're seeing exactly how hard it is to be a good defensive team when you give up offensive rebounds on more than 1/3 of misses.

I do think Kirk could be the difference between playoffs and no playoffs. Not because Kirk is that good, but because by being here he's keeping Pargo's minutes down. Pargo is horrible and yet he thinks he's Kobe Bryant. Seriously, he's 11th in the league as FGA per minute while shooting 34%. Make him the third guard and I'm confident he'll shoot us out of the playoffs.
 

TheStig

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Well your glue guy has to be good at something. Thats why kirk is the anti glue guy. He doesn't really cover for anything except the occasional good game.

I disagree, I am surprised that Brown doesn't get a shot here. I think Flip and Brown could give us enough at the sg spot, we might be a little thin at pg with pargo and law. Brown is the mystery, he was having a good year and then we bury him on the bench.
 

Shakes

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TheStig wrote:
Well your glue guy has to be good at something. Thats why kirk is the anti glue guy. He doesn't really cover for anything except the occasional good game.

I'm not saying Kirk is the glue guy either. I think it's Deng if it's anyone.

I disagree, I am surprised that Brown doesn't get a shot here. I think Flip and Brown could give us enough at the sg spot, we might be a little thin at pg with pargo and law. Brown is the mystery, he was having a good year and then we bury him on the bench.

I don't know why Pargo was signed, why we give him minutes, why we haven't taken him out and shot him ...

But given the available evidence he'd be the third guard without Kirk. Vinny seems to love him. That's one thing I miss about Skiles, if Pargo attempted some of the shots he has under him, he'd be glued to the bench for the next 10 games.
 

TheStig

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Shakes wrote:

I'm not saying Kirk is the glue guy either. I think it's Deng if it's anyone.

I'll give you that. I think they both will be glue guys here if we can get a second star.

I don't know why Pargo was signed, why we give him minutes, why we haven't taken him out and shot him ...

But given the available evidence he'd be the third guard without Kirk. Vinny seems to love him. That's one thing I miss about Skiles, if Pargo attempted some of the shots he has under him, he'd be glued to the bench for the next 10 games.

I don't agree with how he is used but I think he is just brought in to try to score. It looks like VDN encourages him to shoot and made that his role. I just don't get what Brown has done. He has to be a big upgrade over Pargo.
 

Shakes

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I assume Brown was just brought in in case we didn't get a guard back when we traded Salmons. Since we got Flip, he's taking the minutes. I don't understand how Pargo is ahead of him (or even Acie Law), maybe Vinny has been looking at old tapes when Pargo actually could hit threes.
 

Shakes

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... and of course Pargo goes and hits some 3s after I write that.
 

TheStig

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Kirk had a decent offensive game too, he just got killed defensively. Either Butler was too tall and strong or Beaubois killed him with speed.
 

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