cbe 99

[pinkizdead]

first all everyone else is right, there is no depth. Everyone keeps looking at how many games our players have played, this is a flawed statistic. luol deng decided to play with injuries this year.

look at luol deng, he's been playing on one leg. you can tell me that the argument ben gordon playing like complete and utter shit while injured is worthwhile , and then go on tell me there's no excuse for injuries. Luol deng, derrick rose taj gibson have been all playing on one leg at one time or another, and there is NO aboslutely NO scoring on this team and no bench players. We have flip murray finnishing out quarters. what other teams have flip murray playing quarters? The lack of offensive players, means our starters have to play like stars. When they're out there. The lack of bench scoring means we have to play damn well. With all that taken together, injuries count! You got guys on one leg that account for the entire team

also i agree with you guys about brown. What was varejo doing out there? shouldn't they have gone with big Z?

 

[houheffna]

My only issue was Fred and Mark not emphatically saying you would trade Bosh for Noah...HECK YES you trade Bosh for Noah if you have to....that is a no brainer...you try to hold on to Noah but if they want him, you trade him for Bosh...Bosh is a much, I'm sorry...MUCH better player than Noah...

 

[Shakes]

You gotta hold out on trading Noah for Bosh. As I was discussing with Stig in another thread, it's a trade I'd do if we had to, but I don't think we have to. If we're in discussions with the Raptors it's because Bosh wants to come here, so we have the leverage. Bosh isn't going to want to come to a depleted team, he's going to want Rose and Noah on his team.

So if the Raptors come asking for Noah I wouldn't give him to them. If Noah is the price for Bosh I'd rather have Amare for nothing.

 

[TheStig]

Shakes wrote:

You gotta hold out on trading Noah for Bosh. As I was discussing with Stig in another thread, it's a trade I'd do if we had to, but I don't think we have to. If we're in discussions with the Raptors it's because Bosh wants to come here, so we have the leverage. Bosh isn't going to want to come to a depleted team, he's going to want Rose and Noah on his team.

So if the Raptors come asking for Noah I wouldn't give him to them. If Noah is the price for Bosh I'd rather have Amare for nothing.

I agree, if Bosh says he wants to come here than that is incentive enough. A TE and a first or two combined with the above mle cap space they would have could have them rebuilt fairly quick. They could use their cap space on a sg and trade for Biendris and have a solid team.

 

[pinkizdead]

houheffna wrote:

My only issue was Fred and Mark not emphatically saying you would trade Bosh for Noah...HECK YES you trade Bosh for Noah if you have to....that is a no brainer...you try to hold on to Noah but if they want him, you trade him for Bosh...Bosh is a much, I'm sorry...MUCH better player than Noah...

bosh for noah is a done deal, but my issue is would toronto want to come to chicago w/o noah? does he want to play with luol and taj?


hay if we're sending over noah, you're sending over something back. that sounds like a crap deal. what bargaining power does toronto have? they can have what we send them. IF bosh is comming here, i'm pretty sure he'd be cool with us retaining our better players and sending over taj and jj

 

[Fred]

pinkizdead wrote:

first all everyone else is right, there is no depth. Everyone keeps looking at how many games our players have played, this is a flawed statistic. luol deng decided to play with injuries this year.

look at luol deng, he's been playing on one leg. you can tell me that the argument ben gordon playing like complete and utter shit while injured is worthwhile , and then go on tell me there's no excuse for injuries. Luol deng, derrick rose taj gibson have been all playing on one leg at one time or another, and there is NO aboslutely NO scoring on this team and no bench players. We have flip murray finnishing out quarters. what other teams have flip murray playing quarters? The lack of offensive players, means our starters have to play like stars. When they're out there. The lack of bench scoring means we have to play damn well. With all that taken together, injuries count! You got guys on one leg that account for the entire team

also i agree with you guys about brown. What was varejo doing out there? shouldn't they have gone with big Z?

1. You or I have no way of knowing how serious Deng's injury is. I've seen guys play with broken bones and not say a word, and I've seen guys sit out with a hang nail. All we can say for certain is this: Deng is always hurt. He may be brittle, or he may not be able to handle pain, or he may be a real warrior...who the heck knows. But his play wasn't remarkably different this year than any other year of his career. Gordon missed about 12 games over 5 years. I'd say he's proven some level of durability. This year, he missed more games due to injury than any the previous 5 combined. He was playing great before he was injured. He played poorly afterward, at least until the final few weeks of the season, where he returned to normal. He shot below 40% from the 3-point line for this first time in his career. You obviously think this is just a coincidence. I don't.

2. Not having a deep team is the fault of poor decision from management, for giving 20 million to 2 average players in Deng and Hinrich. To blame the season on injuries masks the fact that this team has spent it's cap resources poorly, and on the wrong players.

3. Every team has injuries, some more than others. Hinrich and Deng alone missed more games last year than Rose, Noah, Deng, and Hinrich combined this year. When you also consider that Drew Gooden, a starter for the beginning of last year, missed a large portion of the season, you'll realize that the 08-09 Bulls had far more games lost due to injury. And that team only had Miller and Salmons for the final 2 months. Yet that team won 41 games, and I didn't hear the injury excuse every 5 minutes..

Total games missed for the top 6 scorers on the Pistons, Bulls, and Raptors:

BULLS TOP 6 SCORERS (GAMES MISSED):
Rose 4
Deng 12
Hinrich 8
Noah 18
Gibson 0
Miller 0
= 42

PISTONS TOP 6 SCORERS (GAMES MISSED):
HAMILTON 36
STUCKEY 9
GORDON 20
PRINCE 33
CHARLIE V. 4
BYNUM 19
= 121

RAPTORS TOPP 6 SCORERS (GAMES MISSED):
BOSH 12
BARGNANI 2
J. JACK 0
HEDOSUCK 8
JOSE C. 14
DEROZAN 5
= 41

Weren't the Raptors also hurt by injuries? I would argue just as much as the Bulls this year. What really drives me nuts are the comments that the Bulls would have the 5th seed if they didn't have any injuries. Really? As if, the Milwaukee Bucks were totally healthy this year. Their top 2 players missed over 50 games. Rose and Noah missed 22. The only difference is Skiles doesn't give excuses every 5 minutes.

 

[Fred]

houheffna wrote:

My only issue was Fred and Mark not emphatically saying you would trade Bosh for Noah...HECK YES you trade Bosh for Noah if you have to....that is a no brainer...you try to hold on to Noah but if they want him, you trade him for Bosh...Bosh is a much, I'm sorry...MUCH better player than Noah...

Would you agree that Noah is a better defender? If this team is going to concentrate on defense, like Gar says....then Noah is the choice. I think the decision is a lot closer than you're letting on. I used to agree with you, but Noah seems to be improving exponentially.

 

[pinkizdead]

Fred wrote:

pinkizdead wrote:

2. Not having a deep team is the fault of poor decision from management, for giving 20 million to 2 average players in Deng and Hinrich. To blame the season on injuries masks the fact that this team has spent it's cap resources poorly, and on the wrong players.

3. Every team has injuries, some more than others. Hinrich and Deng alone missed more games last year than Rose, Noah, Deng, and Hinrich combined this year. When you also consider that Drew Gooden, a starter for the beginning of last year, missed a large portion of the season, you'll realize that the 08-09 Bulls had far more games lost due to injury. And that team only had Miller and Salmons for the final 2 months. Yet that team won 41 games, and I didn't hear the injury excuse every 5 minutes..

Total games missed for the top 6 scorers on the Pistons, Bulls, and Raptors:

BULLS TOP 6 SCORERS (GAMES MISSED):
Rose 4
Deng 12
Hinrich 8
Noah 18
Gibson 0
Miller 0
= 42

PISTONS TOP 6 SCORERS (GAMES MISSED):
HAMILTON 36
STUCKEY 9
GORDON 20
PRINCE 33
CHARLIE V. 4
BYNUM 19
= 121

RAPTORS TOPP 6 SCORERS (GAMES MISSED):
BOSH 12
BARGNANI 2
J. JACK 0
HEDOSUCK 8
JOSE C. 14
DEROZAN 5
= 41

Weren't the Raptors also hurt by injuries? I would argue just as much as the Bulls this year. What really drives me nuts are the comments that the Bulls would have the 5th seed if they didn't have any injuries. Really? As if, the Milwaukee Bucks were totally healthy this year. Their top 2 players missed over 50 games. Rose and Noah missed 22. The only difference is Skiles doesn't give excuses every 5 minutes.

1. actually i agree with you with gordon shooting below 40 is uncharacteristic. he's obviously suffering from an injury. I'm just applying the same logic to our team. Gordon is playing injured, and his shots weren't falling. A lot of our key guys were playing injured and they weren't playing well.

We've had taj playing on one leg the entire year. A lot of guys are playing through their injuries. It's not uncommon to see luol on the injured list, he's the man of glass.

2. i agree . our gm is an idiot. seriously a team with kirk hinrich, luol deng , noah, taj, and tyrus is great on the defensive end, but absolutely terrible on the offensive end. we're like a bad version of iverson's 76rs. Look at that list. not a single one of them is an offensive talent.

3. that team had a lot better depth. those guys missed games but they also had hughes to absorb deng and hinrich's minutes. Drew gooden was awful on the defensive end, but he had his moments on the offensive end. we beat a few teams just by being a better offensive team. Frankly we were a better team last year with deng out. Rose gordon and salmons with hinrich backing up at 1-3 was a really good guard rotation. Tim thomas sucked but he sucked up minutes. it's all we need him to do. To be honest an argument could be made that the injuries last year helped with the chemistry issues from having too much depth.


I'm not saying we could be a 5th seed. I think 7th seed is definatly in the realm of possibility or maybe even 6th.

This year we were pretty high during a point in the schedule when we played well, and we played a lot of lesser talent. The reason we lost isn't just because of injuries, the talent got a hell of a lot tougher. Are we better than the bucks? no. There isn't a doubt in my mind that we're better than miami.

 

[pinkizdead]

Fred wrote:

houheffna wrote:

My only issue was Fred and Mark not emphatically saying you would trade Bosh for Noah...HECK YES you trade Bosh for Noah if you have to....that is a no brainer...you try to hold on to Noah but if they want him, you trade him for Bosh...Bosh is a much, I'm sorry...MUCH better player than Noah...

Would you agree that Noah is a better defender? If this team is going to concentrate on defense, like Gar says....then Noah is the choice. I think the decision is a lot closer than you're letting on. I used to agree with you, but Noah seems to be improving exponentially.

i'd keep noah, it'd be nicer if we could find some1 who would take deng off our hands. Trade some other pieces. Deng is a good player, but he's playing like the 3rd best player, and is being paid as the salary of the second best player

 

[TheStig]

Fred wrote:

houheffna wrote:

My only issue was Fred and Mark not emphatically saying you would trade Bosh for Noah...HECK YES you trade Bosh for Noah if you have to....that is a no brainer...you try to hold on to Noah but if they want him, you trade him for Bosh...Bosh is a much, I'm sorry...MUCH better player than Noah...

Would you agree that Noah is a better defender? If this team is going to concentrate on defense, like Gar says....then Noah is the choice. I think the decision is a lot closer than you're letting on. I used to agree with you, but Noah seems to be improving exponentially.

Screw what Gar says. Bosh is a top 3 PF and a 20/10 guy. I don't want to give up Noah but I'll drive him to the airport in favor of Bosh.

 

[Shakes]

Fred wrote:

BULLS TOP 6 SCORERS (GAMES MISSED):
Rose 4
Deng 12
Hinrich 8
Noah 18
Gibson 0
Miller 0
= 42

Bulls top scorers by PPG games missed:

Rose 4
Deng 12
Salmons 31
Hinrich 8
Noah 18
Murray 53

The only reason our top scorers missed so few games is that Salmons and Murray weren't with the team long enough to make the list based on total points.

 

[Fred]

Shakes wrote:

Fred wrote:

BULLS TOP 6 SCORERS (GAMES MISSED):
Rose 4
Deng 12
Hinrich 8
Noah 18
Gibson 0
Miller 0
= 42

Bulls top scorers by PPG games missed:

Rose 4
Deng 12
Salmons 31
Hinrich 8
Noah 18
Murray 53

The only reason our top scorers missed so few games is that Salmons and Murray weren't with the team long enough to make the list based on total points.

Actually, both Salmons and Murray help to make my point. Salmons played in 51 games for the Bulls before he was traded. I don't think he missed a game. We were a .500 team on the day he was traded. Up to that point in Feb, Rose and Deng played in every game, and Noah had missed 5 games. We were 3-2 in the 5 games he missed. I don't think Murray missed a game.

 

[houheffna]

Guys, you have to be kidding. This is just not good sense. Bosh is the best in the league at his position, and I believe a top 10 player. Noah is not top 20. I think its a no-brainer that if you had to, you trade Noah.

I hope this forum isn't filled with people who insisted a few years back that you don't put Deng in a trade for Kobe because Kobe isn't worth Deng...that was a lowlight in Bulls fans history, it made the whole fanbase look like a bunch of dumb asses.

 

[mlewinth]

houheffna wrote:

My only issue was Fred and Mark not emphatically saying you would trade Bosh for Noah...HECK YES you trade Bosh for Noah if you have to....that is a no brainer...you try to hold on to Noah but if they want him, you trade him for Bosh...Bosh is a much, I'm sorry...MUCH better player than Noah...

Hou, if I came accros as not being strong in favor of a Noah/Bosh trade, I apologize. Though I would like to avoid trading Noah at all costs, I would do it in a heartbeat if it ensured us of getting Bosh.

 

[Shakes]

houheffna wrote:

Guys, you have to be kidding. This is just not good sense. Bosh is the best in the league at his position, and I believe a top 10 player. Noah is not top 20. I think its a no-brainer that if you had to, you trade Noah.

I think the point is we don't have to. It's not a matter of "would you rather Noah or Bosh", but "would you Rather Bosh or Noah and Amare" (or some other FA).

I hope this forum isn't filled with people who insisted a few years back that you don't put Deng in a trade for Kobe because Kobe isn't worth Deng...that was a lowlight in Bulls fans history, it made the whole fanbase look like a bunch of dumb asses.

It was Kobe who didn't want to go to the Bulls without Deng. Likewise Bosh wont want to go to the Bulls without Noah.

 

[J-Mart]

houheffna wrote:

Guys, you have to be kidding. This is just not good sense. Bosh is the best in the league at his position, and I believe a top 10 player. Noah is not top 20. I think its a no-brainer that if you had to, you trade Noah.

I hope this forum isn't filled with people who insisted a few years back that you don't put Deng in a trade for Kobe because Kobe isn't worth Deng...that was a lowlight in Bulls fans history, it made the whole fanbase look like a bunch of dumb asses.

I would normally agree with you in most circumstances but this summer is completely different. There are so many good FAs out there, especially PFs that we can choose from without giving up Noah. If all other options are gone, then of course you trade Noah if it gets Bosh in here. Right now Toronto does not have enough leverage to pry Noah away from us, but they might if Bosh and Toronto take their time working out a sign and trade and wait for all the other PFs to sign somewhere. That is when the real bidding for Bosh will start.

 

[TheStig]

Shakes wrote:

Fred wrote:

BULLS TOP 6 SCORERS (GAMES MISSED):
Rose 4
Deng 12
Hinrich 8
Noah 18
Gibson 0
Miller 0
= 42

Bulls top scorers by PPG games missed:

Rose 4
Deng 12
Salmons 31
Hinrich 8
Noah 18
Murray 53

The only reason our top scorers missed so few games is that Salmons and Murray weren't with the team long enough to make the list based on total points.

Shakes, what are you talking about, Salmons played in 81 games each of the last two years and Murray missed like 9 games over the last two years?

 

[Shakes]

TheStig wrote:

Shakes, what are you talking about, Salmons played in 81 games each of the last two years and Murray missed like 9 games over the last two years?

Fred keeps on pointing out last year we didn't have Salmons or Miller the whole year. I'm just pointing out this year we didn't have two of our top scorers for the whole year due to trades.

 

[TheStig]

Shakes wrote:

TheStig wrote:

Shakes, what are you talking about, Salmons played in 81 games each of the last two years and Murray missed like 9 games over the last two years?

Fred keeps on pointing out last year we didn't have Salmons or Miller the whole year. I'm just pointing out this year we didn't have two of our top scorers for the whole year due to trades.

Not really the same since we voluntarily gave up talent. It wasn't like Miller and Salmons were available in the beginning of the year.

 

[Diddy1122]

This S&T stuff kills me. First off, Bosh never specifically said he would only leave in a S&T. Second, Toronto has no leverage whatsoever since there are 3 other high quality PF's on the market & Bosh, just like the other 3, can sign anywhere he wants. And thirdly, and this is key I think, why in the world would Bosh not want to pair with Noah in the front court? He would be playing with not only one of the better up-n-coming centers in the NBA, but arguably the best offensive rebounder in the NBA. It makes little sense for Bosh to demand a S&T, other than for an extra year on his contract. So is the extra $20mill worth giving up to team with Rose & Noah? That's a question Bosh will have to answer.

What's a no-brainer is that Rose/Bosh/Noah is better than just Rose/Bosh. Hopefully Bosh has the brains to realize that.