Center Supply and Demand

[Daniel7123]

This is worth reading
I got it off of a clippers site

http://www.clipsnation.com/2009/4/23/850319/nba-centers-supply-and-demand

 

[Newskoolbulls]

I personally would take a chance on Kaman but understand why many of you guys wouldnt. As for centers being overpaid I think that is a thing of the past. I want to see how bigs this summer get paid.

 

[houheffna]

I was a Kaman fan at one time. He might need a new beginning. He might be plan C or D for the Bulls, or maybe that is too high.

 

[Shakes]

I think the chart in the articles is exactly why you don't get Kaman: despite his poor start to the season and the fact PER isn't the most favourable stat for low usage defensive minded players, Noah still ranks 15th on the list.

In other words, he's at worst an average starting center, yet has only been in the league two years (and hence we get a huge bargain on him for the next two). Why do we spend big bucks on Kaman as a luxury tax limited team?

 

[JimmyBulls]

I would look at what the Grizzlies do with Gasol if they draft Thabeet. If they decided to keep Gasol, or had no intertest in Thomas then I would look to aquire Kaman. I would be perfectly happy with a Hinrich/Kaman swap.

 

[cool007]

Center is not one of the positions I am looking at upgrading.

We need a PF who can score 15-20 a game CONSISTENTLY - More than anything else.

If Noah Bucks up and comes in shape from the very beginning, we are all set at the C spot with Miller backing him up for about 15+ minutes a game.

 

[houheffna]

I dont think any position outside of the point guard is safe. If it is economically feasible, you upgrade at center too. You don't have a franchise, all-star center so the position can be upgraded.

 

[Shakes]

There aren't many guys on the list who I'd rather have long term than Noah though. Howard, Okafor and Lopez would be the only three certainties. I guess some might put Horford or (Marc) Gasol in there too. I'd be pretty wary of the health of Yao, Biedrins, Bogut and Oden, so wouldn't want to rely on them.

Not exactly a long list, not many of them are likely to be available, and even if you could get them, playing them with Noah would still probably be our best option.

I see Noah as an almost certain keeper.

 

[houheffna]

Well, in my opinion, this team has only one keeper. And Noah would have to show me that he can play well for more than 2 months. And he can start by coming to preseason in shape.

 

[houheffna]

There aren't many guys on the list who I'd rather have long term than Noah though. Howard, Okafor and Lopez would be the only three certainties. I guess some might put Horford or (Marc) Gasol in there too. I'd be pretty wary of the health of Yao, Biedrins, Bogut and Oden, so wouldn't want to rely on them.

I would rather "rely" on Yao and Biedrins any day of the week and take my chances than just bet the bank on Noah. Oden is a no-go over Noah right now.

Here is what you have to ask yourself...can Noah make the 7 or 8 man rotation on a contending team? I would think not. We cannot become overly enthused about Noah, he is not top 10 at his position.

 

[TheStig]

I can't believe their are people on this board that want to lock up $20mill a year long term for Deng and Kaman. Two injury prone and mediocre talents that haven't proven they can do more than put together one good season. At least Deng is young, Kaman is already half way through his career.

 

[Shakes]

houheffna wrote:

There aren't many guys on the list who I'd rather have long term than Noah though. Howard, Okafor and Lopez would be the only three certainties. I guess some might put Horford or (Marc) Gasol in there too. I'd be pretty wary of the health of Yao, Biedrins, Bogut and Oden, so wouldn't want to rely on them.

I would rather "rely" on Yao and Biedrins any day of the week and take my chances than just bet the bank on Noah. Oden is a no-go over Noah right now.

My point about the injury prone guys was that even if you got them, you'd be nuts to trade Noah away since you need someone to not only be a backup, but also start in all the games they miss. Obviously if healthy I'd rather have Yao or Biedrins, but that's a big if.

Here is what you have to ask yourself...can Noah make the 7 or 8 man rotation on a contending team? I would think not. We cannot become overly enthused about Noah, he is not top 10 at his position.

Luc Longley was the starting center for multiple championship teams. Noah is already a far better player than Luc ever was. This whole "can player X be on a championship team" question is stupid because as we saw with Cleveland, even LeBron isn't a starter on a championship team if his team mates aren't good enough.

That said, I'm going to turn the question around: name any team in the league who Noah wouldn't be in the 7-8 man rotation for. Because I don't think there are any.

 

[dougthonus]

houheffna wrote:

There aren't many guys on the list who I'd rather have long term than Noah though. Howard, Okafor and Lopez would be the only three certainties. I guess some might put Horford or (Marc) Gasol in there too. I'd be pretty wary of the health of Yao, Biedrins, Bogut and Oden, so wouldn't want to rely on them.

I would rather "rely" on Yao and Biedrins any day of the week and take my chances than just bet the bank on Noah. Oden is a no-go over Noah right now.

Here is what you have to ask yourself...can Noah make the 7 or 8 man rotation on a contending team? I would think not. We cannot become overly enthused about Noah, he is not top 10 at his position.

I think Noah would easily be in the eight man rotation of any team in the league. I'm struggling to figure out what team wouldn't have them as at least their 8th man.

You're arguing about two separate things. Is he a top 10 center (extraordinarily high mark) and in the eight man rotation (not such a high mark).

If I could have Yao or Noah on this roster, I'd take Yao, injury, contract, and all. I'd be scared to hell it wouldn't work, but I don't see hwo you couldn't take Yao.

Biedrins though? Biedrins isn't that good and benefits from a really weird situation offensively to pump up his stats. I think Noah would be Biedrins if he played on GS. I'd much rather have Noah on his contract than have Biedrins at 10 million a year for the next 4-5 years on his.

Relative to what Noah costs us, I think probably only Howard, Yao, Perkins, Lopez, and Oden strike me as guys I'd rather have with their contracts. I may be forgetting someone though.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

There aren't many guys on the list who I'd rather have long term than Noah though. Howard, Okafor and Lopez would be the only three certainties. I guess some might put Horford or (Marc) Gasol in there too. I'd be pretty wary of the health of Yao, Biedrins, Bogut and Oden, so wouldn't want to rely on them.

I would rather "rely" on Yao and Biedrins any day of the week and take my chances than just bet the bank on Noah. Oden is a no-go over Noah right now.

Here is what you have to ask yourself...can Noah make the 7 or 8 man rotation on a contending team? I would think not. We cannot become overly enthused about Noah, he is not top 10 at his position.

Duh, but those guys make much more than Noah and aren't available in trade. By your logic, I could ask who would you rather have Wade or BG? The difference is about the same. Good luck getting Wade though.

And Noah can easily make a 8 man rotation on almost any team in the league. 8th man just means he would be the first big off the bench and he can do that on any team besides the Lakers.

 

[AirP]

dougthonus wrote:

Relative to what Noah costs us, I think probably only Howard, Yao, Perkins, Lopez, and Oden strike me as guys I'd rather have with their contracts. I may be forgetting someone though.

You'd rather have Perkins over Noah? I understand Perkins is a bigger body, but Noah seems to be the better rebounder, has a better style to run with and still looks like he can get a good amount better with strength(now that he's working on it) and is more agile near the basket(which will only come into play if he works on his low post game).

I think you could argue that Noah this year was the same or better then Perkins last year in which both would have been 23.

 

[houheffna]

Orlando has 3 centers better than Noah, Bynum on one leg is better than Noah. I liked what I saw from Noah but Perkins is better than Noah right now.

Luc Longley was the starting center for multiple championship teams. Noah is already a far better player than Luc ever was. This whole "can player X be on a championship team" question is stupid because as we saw with Cleveland, even LeBron isn't a starter on a championship team if his team mates aren't good enough

The argument is not stupid, its a question scouts in basketball have to answer. Maybe its stupid because you cannot answer it. Lebron is a starter on a championship team, regardless of his teammates, if you cannot discern that, then what the heck are you watching. You should be able to look at a player and decide whether that player is in that mode or not. Luc Longley was added to a championship core, he is not a center you look at and think that he is a legitimate top level center.

Bulls fans defeat themselves by adding mediocre or below mediocre players and making them keepers, my point is no one is a keeper, except one.

 

[Shakes]

houheffna wrote:

Orlando has 3 centers better than Noah, Bynum on one leg is better than Noah. I liked what I saw from Noah but Perkins is better than Noah right now.

Orlando has three centers better than Noah? You can't seriously be saying Battie is better than Noah, I'm not sure I'd even call him better than Aaron Gray.

If the Lakers had Noah he would be in the 4-5 mix with Gasol and Bynum and they'd slide Odom to the 3. And with Bynum's current injury, he's pretty awful. There's a reason Phil is playing him less than 20 MPG in the playoffs.

Perkins had a decent series against us but on what they did over the entire year Noah outperformed him. I can accept the argument that as a big body Perkins is a better fit for the Celtics though.

The argument is not stupid, its a question scouts in basketball have to answer. Maybe its stupid because you cannot answer it. Lebron is a starter on a championship team, regardless of his teammates, if you cannot discern that, then what the heck are you watching. You should be able to look at a player and decide whether that player is in that mode or not. Luc Longley was added to a championship core, he is not a center you look at and think that he is a legitimate top level center.

My point is that there's no such thing as championship players, only championship teams. On the right team Noah can win a championship. On the wrong team he can't. That's true even for superstars. Look at Wade, he's been on a team that's won the championship, and one that had the second worst record in the league. Kevin Garnett went from deep lottery to championship after he was traded.

Basically it depends on the other guys in the rotation whether Noah can be on a championship team. I can name plenty of guys worse than Noah who have been on the rotation for a championship team though. Heck, Robert Horry was never even an average starter at his position and he won seven championships, likewise Steve Kerr and his five.

If you really want to play the "can X win a championship" game though, then I've stated I consider Noah to currently be an average starter at the center position (with some likelihood of improving that ranking due to still being rather young). Just about every championship team has at least one starter that is only average or worse. So I do think Noah can be a starter on a championship team. For example, the Lakers are likely to win a championship this year, and Noah is easily better than the injured version of Bynum they're starting.

Bulls fans defeat themselves by adding mediocre or below mediocre players and making them keepers, my point is no one is a keeper, except one.

Well obviously if Cleveland come along and say "You can have LBJ for Noah" we make the trade. My point is there is nobody realistically available who is better value at the center position than Noah, so barring a ridiculously one sided trade, he's a keeper.

 

[houheffna]

Yeah, I think Battie is better than Noah, and he has a better offensive game than Noah. When I say that a player is not on a championship level, I mean that he is not a player you put at a certain position and say "that is it, we don't have to worry about that position". Perkins is a better and smarter basketball player right now than Noah, don't know how long that will last, but that is the way it is. And Perkins would work just fine for the Bulls, and he would have started ahead of Noah.

 

[Shakes]

Battie averaged a whole 1 point per 36 more than Noah (and at a worse percentage, also drawing fewer fouls). Excuse me if I don't get excited about his offensive game.

If Perkins was starting for the Bulls it'd probably be alongside Noah, not instead of him.

I'm not worried about PG and C on the Bulls. Noah is already a very good rebounder and shot blocker, which is basically the core skill set you need at C. Once he gains a bit more strength and experience he's golden. He's not going to be a superstar, but you don't need 5 superstars, you need one or two and a supporting cast with the right skill sets. Given every superstar C currently in the league (Howard, Yao when healthy, and Shaq as a has been) was drafted #1, and we hope we're not in the lottery anytime soon, a guy like Noah is the best we can hope for at the position.

 

[houheffna]

You CANNOT put Perkins and Noah alongside each other, that is just bad. Noah would come off the bench behind Perkins, someone like Miller or Thomas would start at the 4 for offensive purposes.

Notice, I didn't need stats to tell me that Battie was better than Noah. Just watched them both play. Noah has the skill set based on what? Sorry, but I just think some fans are too complacent and easily swayed. You don't build teams like Orlando and the Lakers with that mentality...