Chad Ford: Thunder Interested in Gordon

[jsain360]

Ben Gordon was not the Bulls best player last year, Derrick Rose was, Derrick made Ben a better player with his ability to pass and make plays for others, something that Ben doesn't do all that well, I like Ben, I think he is a good player, but people think the Bulls will just go into the tank if Ben walked, the Bull struggled at the begining of the season w/ Ben, they sucked last year w/ Ben, I know they made some playoff appearances w/ Ben, but my point is a lot of people make it seem like Ben isn't replaceable, everybody wasn't up in arms when Jamal Crawford got traded and his game is very similar to Ben's, point blank if I'm the Bulls he gets a 3yr $21-24 mill contract and bounses could push the overall value to $27-30 mill

 

[mlewinth]

jsain360 wrote:

Ben Gordon was not the Bulls best player last year, Derrick Rose was, Derrick made Ben a better player with his ability to pass and make plays for others, something that Ben doesn't do all that well, I like Ben, I think he is a good player, but people think the Bulls will just go into the tank if Ben walked, the Bull struggled at the begining of the season w/ Ben, they sucked last year w/ Ben, I know they made some playoff appearances w/ Ben, but my point is a lot of people make it seem like Ben isn't replaceable, everybody wasn't up in arms when Jamal Crawford got traded and his game is very similar to Ben's, point blank if I'm the Bulls he gets a 3yr $21-24 mill contract and bounses could push the overall value to $27-30 mill

And this is why I am happy that you ARE NOT the Bulls.....

 

[??? ??????]

jsain360 wrote:

Ben Gordon was not the Bulls best player last year, Derrick Rose was, Derrick made Ben a better player with his ability to pass and make plays for others, something that Ben doesn't do all that well, I like Ben, I think he is a good player, but people think the Bulls will just go into the tank if Ben walked, the Bull struggled at the begining of the season w/ Ben, they sucked last year w/ Ben, I know they made some playoff appearances w/ Ben, but my point is a lot of people make it seem like Ben isn't replaceable, everybody wasn't up in arms when Jamal Crawford got traded and his game is very similar to Ben's, point blank if I'm the Bulls he gets a 3yr $21-24 mill contract and bounses could push the overall value to $27-30 mill

Ben scored much more at a much higher efficiency. Rose was a slightly better rebounder, while Ben was worlds better as a defender.

I don't know how you really can make a case for Rose being the best player on the team than Ben.

The only place where Rose really outshined Ben was in the assist column. And his 6.1 Ast per 36 minutes isn't all that impressive. That was worse than Hinrichs horrible 07-08 season. If you gave Ben the ball and told him to be the point guard, I'm sure he would have put up similar assist numbers to Rose.

Rose was impressive for a rookie. But in comparison to seasoned vets in the NBA, Rose's season wasn't impressive at all.

 

[jsain360]

I just don't want to see the Bulls overpay for Ben, when he can be had at pennies on the dollar, already overpaid for Hinrich, Deng, and Noc was overpaid when he was on the team, we're overpaying too much for good players, Ben is good, but people think losing him would be armegedon

 

[chi_hawks_23]

jsain360 wrote:

I just don't want to see the Bulls overpay for Ben, when he can be had at pennies on the dollar, already overpaid for Hinrich, Deng, and Noc was overpaid when he was on the team, we're overpaying too much for good players, Ben is good, but people think losing him would be armegedon

The only thing worse than overpaying Noc/Kirk/Deng is not paying Ben to try to "correct" what youve already done.

Noc is gone. Kirk will be traded. Deng will either be traded soon or will be one of the worst contracts ever handed out by the bulls (tough to top Ben Wallace).

Ben @ 9-10 mil per year is pretty dang good.

 

[AirP]

??? ?????? wrote:

AirP wrote:

??? ?????? wrote:

What holes exactly does Gordon dig us in? You mean like the hole he dug us in, in Game 5, when he hit the potential game winning shot...only to have John Salmons give it up on the other end to Paul Pierce?

My bad, a couple individual shots changes everything, we should just continue to move forward with him, he only has bad offensive games about 30-35% of the time. That's the best way to build a consistant winner... a top option who is very streaky. He averages out very efficiently over the whole season, but from night to night you don't know what you'll get from him and with that... it's hard to build a consistant offense with that type of player as one of your main options.

Hey, maybe in game 6 where he missed 15 FGs out of 21 win game 6? He did make 11 of 12 free throws but that's another what 5-6 FGs that he missed but got fouled on?

I understand pressure doesn't phase his game like it does for guys like Deng(who we vastly overpaid) but the guy will miss enough shots to put his team in a hole.

What about the rest of the team that has bad offensive games 50-80% of the time?

Wouldn't that basically mean they're not good scorers?

There's only 2 guys on the team who are "just scorers" on offense... Gordon and Salmons, neither really does anything else on offense then score that's why both these guys get attacked so hard when they have bad shooting games, their offense isn't just based on the offense, both routinely do their own thing.

Rose... although a scorer is also a distributor, he needs to become more of a scorer, he's too gifted not to be.

Deng, Tyrus, Hinrich, Miller and Noah are all guys who can only really score within the offense and with ball movement, their scoring is based off of the flow of the game.

 

[collisrost]

The crux of the argument about how Gordon leaving will affect the team is that Gordon is the perfect fit for Del Negro's offensive system. There's a reason he's played so well this year offensively whereas Deng, who's showed that he's a good player in the past, has struggled. The system works perfectly for guys like Gordon, it doesn't work at all for guys like Deng.

So if we want to replace Gordon's scoring with guys currently on the roster we've gotta change our offensive system. You could argue that we need to change our system anyway, I don't know, it's worked pretty well this year, but whatever. But how much faith do you have that Del Negro will see the light and overhaul his system to make up for the loss of his best scoring threat? And if he does, who knows how successful he will be.

 

[??? ??????]

collisrost wrote:

The crux of the argument about how Gordon leaving will affect the team is that Gordon is the perfect fit for Del Negro's offensive system. There's a reason he's played so well this year offensively whereas Deng, who's showed that he's a good player in the past, has struggled. The system works perfectly for guys like Gordon, it doesn't work at all for guys like Deng.

So if we want to replace Gordon's scoring with guys currently on the roster we've gotta change our offensive system. You could argue that we need to change our system anyway, I don't know, it's worked pretty well this year, but whatever. But how much faith do you have that Del Negro will see the light and overhaul his system to make up for the loss of his best scoring threat? And if he does, who knows how successful he will be.

Ben Gordon would fit a lot of offensive systems. However, that's true about most players that can shoot the three and take players off the dribble.

On the flipside, I don't think Luol Deng would fit too many offenses, if any. Luol Deng this year was horrible. The reason Luol Deng was so bad this year is that he took so many contested shots. Multiple times a game, we would see Luol Deng get the ball, wide open. He'd pump fake. Dribble, stop. Pump fake....pump fake again....pump fake again...then throw up a horrible, contested shot.

The only year that Luol Deng had a good (not great though) scoring efficiency was 06-07. Why? He was making wide open jumpshots from midrange. The past two years, he hasn't been making his wide open jumpshots. His bread and butter is the midrange jumpshot. Luol's struggles this past year were a mixture of his shot not being as good as in 06-07, and also, forcing himself into more difficult shots with his ill-fated quintuple pump fakes.

 

[jsain360]

??? ?????? wrote:

jsain360 wrote:

Ben Gordon was not the Bulls best player last year, Derrick Rose was, Derrick made Ben a better player with his ability to pass and make plays for others, something that Ben doesn't do all that well, I like Ben, I think he is a good player, but people think the Bulls will just go into the tank if Ben walked, the Bull struggled at the begining of the season w/ Ben, they sucked last year w/ Ben, I know they made some playoff appearances w/ Ben, but my point is a lot of people make it seem like Ben isn't replaceable, everybody wasn't up in arms when Jamal Crawford got traded and his game is very similar to Ben's, point blank if I'm the Bulls he gets a 3yr $21-24 mill contract and bounses could push the overall value to $27-30 mill

Ben scored much more at a much higher efficiency. Rose was a slightly better rebounder, while Ben was worlds better as a defender.

I don't know how you really can make a case for Rose being the best player on the team than Ben.

The only place where Rose really outshined Ben was in the assist column. And his 6.1 Ast per 36 minutes isn't all that impressive. That was worse than Hinrichs horrible 07-08 season. If you gave Ben the ball and told him to be the point guard, I'm sure he would have put up similar assist numbers to Rose.

Rose was impressive for a rookie. But in comparison to seasoned vets in the NBA, Rose's season wasn't impressive at all.

They tried Ben at the point, he can't play PG, he doesn't have a good enough handle to play point and his decision making is horrible

 

[cool007]

jsain360 wrote:
They tried Ben at the point, he can't play PG, he doesn't have a good enough handle to play point and his decision making is horrible

Actually, Gordon can bring the ball up the court but where he gets in trouble is that when teams start pressuring him or send double teams and trap him, he is a horrible passer out of double teams or when pressured too much.

So teams take advantage of him and thus he can not play Point (unless for few minutes of course).

 

[??? ??????]

cool007 wrote:

jsain360 wrote:
They tried Ben at the point, he can't play PG, he doesn't have a good enough handle to play point and his decision making is horrible

Actually, Gordon can bring the ball up the court but where he gets in trouble is that when teams start pressuring him or send double teams and trap him, he is a horrible passer out of double teams or when pressured too much.

So teams take advantage of him and thus he can not play Point (unless for few minutes of course).

Ben's struggles passing out of double teams was largely a part of his Bulls' teammates too. He'd get doubled and they would just stand there.

This year, he turned it over significantly less when doubled. Why? Derrick Rose and Joakim Noah would move into a position where Ben could make a pass to them. In the past, everyone would just stand there, while Ben was left for dead.

 

[AirP]

??? ?????? wrote:

cool007 wrote:

jsain360 wrote:
They tried Ben at the point, he can't play PG, he doesn't have a good enough handle to play point and his decision making is horrible

Actually, Gordon can bring the ball up the court but where he gets in trouble is that when teams start pressuring him or send double teams and trap him, he is a horrible passer out of double teams or when pressured too much.

So teams take advantage of him and thus he can not play Point (unless for few minutes of course).

Ben's struggles passing out of double teams was largely a part of his Bulls' teammates too. He'd get doubled and they would just stand there.

This year, he turned it over significantly less when doubled. Why? Derrick Rose and Joakim Noah would move into a position where Ben could make a pass to them. In the past, everyone would just stand there, while Ben was left for dead.

Hmm... then one might wonder why Hinrich doesn't have the same problems as Gordon.

Never understood why Chicago didn't push Gordon towards being a PG. His size, speed and agility seem a great match for PG. Even if he doesn't have great vision(but much better then Hinrich's) he would have been a top PG in this league if he had better handles.

Who knows... maybe after seeing how Chris Jackson(Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf) an undersized SG who tried to make the transition to PG and fail compared to his talent level at SG(despite his size) maybe they decided to just let Gordon be what his mentality is... a SG. Chris Jackson was an amazing small SG who Gordon seems to be in the mold of.... other then Gordon is a better 3pt shooter. After seeing both in person up close, they seem to be the same size.

 

[??? ??????]

AirP wrote:

??? ?????? wrote:

cool007 wrote:

jsain360 wrote:
They tried Ben at the point, he can't play PG, he doesn't have a good enough handle to play point and his decision making is horrible

Actually, Gordon can bring the ball up the court but where he gets in trouble is that when teams start pressuring him or send double teams and trap him, he is a horrible passer out of double teams or when pressured too much.

So teams take advantage of him and thus he can not play Point (unless for few minutes of course).

Ben's struggles passing out of double teams was largely a part of his Bulls' teammates too. He'd get doubled and they would just stand there.

This year, he turned it over significantly less when doubled. Why? Derrick Rose and Joakim Noah would move into a position where Ben could make a pass to them. In the past, everyone would just stand there, while Ben was left for dead.

Hmm... then one might wonder why Hinrich doesn't have the same problems as Gordon.

Never understood why Chicago didn't push Gordon towards being a PG. His size, speed and agility seem a great match for PG. Even if he doesn't have great vision(but much better then Hinrich's) he would have been a top PG in this league if he had better handles.

Who knows... maybe after seeing how Chris Jackson(Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf) an undersized SG who tried to make the transition to PG and fail compared to his talent level at SG(despite his size) maybe they decided to just let Gordon be what his mentality is... a SG. Chris Jackson was an amazing small SG who Gordon seems to be in the mold of.... other then Gordon is a better 3pt shooter. After seeing both in person up close, they seem to be the same size.

Hinrich doesn't have the problem because he doesn't get double teamed.

Gordon still might be able to play point guard. I wouldn't be shocked if the Pistons traded Stuckey for some front court help if they sign Gordon, and try to convert Gordon to a point guard. Billups wasn't doing too hot as a point guard before going to Detroit.

I think we originally intended to have Gordon develop as our point guard of the future, with Paxson probably looking to trade Hinrich once Gordon got his feet under him as a point guard. But Skiles never let Gordon play point guard (It was always either Hinrich or Duhon), so Gordon never got the chance to develop as a point guard.