Chili Davis not returning

[anotheridiot]

the whole deal is, what happened? they led the league in the important categories the first half. Were they not listening to him then and decided to start after the first half?

During the year, I heard Chili Davis say that Heyward did not want his opinion on his swing. He said he watches replays and he already knew what was going wrong.

Why did Rizzo turn his second half around?

If Baez moved in three inches I bet he would cut down on alot, but he seems afraid of anything inside.

Those are the adjustments the players need to make during the season. Teams pitch Baez away, he has to go out there. They start pitching him in, he moves back. Gotta find a guy they will listen to.

I know an icon is not needed, but the quotes from Ryne Sandberg about "there was no way a team could continue to shift against us in our day, we would just simply adjust"

Our players are convinced they will hit thru defenders and over walls. It did not happen. They dont want to lose their power by going the other way, they lost it anyway.

Seems like its more of a sounding block position than a drill Sargent. Would just be nice to have someone like Chili in the way that he was a 250-260 hitter who turned into a .300 guy year in and out.

 

[TC in Mississippi]

Does anyone else feel like this was something Maddon wanted more than the front office last year re: hiring Chili and that the front office threw him a bone? Because that's what this feels like to me. It seems like Chili's approach to hitting was in line with what Maddon wanted more so than the front office.

Yes, I think that's right. I think Maddon felt they were too dependent on the HR and wanted someone that preached patience and hitting the opposite way. What I think happened was that as the lack of HR (a 25% drop from 2017) became an issue guys started pressing and trying to hit them in situations they maybe shouldn't have. The team needed more contact and hitting to all fields but they may have sacrificed too much.

 

[TC in Mississippi]

Not sure we really should talk specific names because who knows specific hitting coaches? With that being said, I like the way houston works. Maybe that's players and not coaching. I also like the way cleveland hits. I'd hope to get some one from their org.

I'd look that way too. Houston has preached a good balance of launch angle and contact and changing approaches with 2 strikes. I seriously doubt you could pry Dave Hudgens away from Houston but they have what they call a "second hitting coach" in Jeff Albert who was their minor league hitting coordinator from 2014-2017 who is in the same mold. The other option would be Alonzo Powell who left the assistant gig in Houston last year to become hitting coach in SF. He could possibly be lured to a contender. They could also go try to get their own former minor leasgue hitting coordinator Eric Hinske back from Anaheim.

 

[beckdawg]

I know an icon is not needed, but the quotes from Ryne Sandberg about "there was no way a team could continue to shift against us in our day, we would just simply adjust"

I don't really believe this. The problem isn't so much the shift by itself but the way they pitch with the shift. It's easy to say "go the other way" but if they pitch you in a way that makes that impossible what good is trying? David Ortiz was a great hitter and he basically said as much in an espn interview I saw right around the time shifts started becoming popular.

 

[TC in Mississippi]

They should look to hire someone who can actually teach, understands how the swing actually works and understands that fewer external cues are better. Too much cookie cutter stuff. Each player has his own DNA. The job doesn't require being a former pro.

I completely agree. A mixed approach is what they need. If it ain't broke don't fix it. I think Schwarber benefitted from Eric Hinske's mixed approach in the minors and John Mallee's launch angle first approach hurt him. A big kid like that doesn't need to "cheat" with an uppercut swing. Davis helped him for a while, his BA went up and his K's went down, but I think by the second half he starter trying to hit HR when the pitches weren't there in an attempt to generate offense for his team. In short he, like a lot of the guys, was pressing.

 

[Parade_Rain]

Yes, I think that's right. I think Maddon felt they were too dependent on the HR and wanted someone that preached patience and hitting the opposite way. What I think happened was that as the lack of HR (a 25% drop from 2017) became an issue guys started pressing and trying to hit them in situations they maybe shouldn't have. The team needed more contact and hitting to all fields but they may have sacrificed too much.

And really trying to hit home runs rarely results in hitting home runs. Mostly, it results in failure. Of course you want to hit the ball hard, but that is something you can control within reason. I am a firm believer that, mentally-speaking, HR are accidents.

 

[beckdawg]

I completely agree. A mixed approach is what they need. If it ain't broke don't fix it. I think Schwarber benefitted from Eric Hinske's mixed approach in the minors and John Mallee's launch angle first approach hurt him. A big kid like that doesn't need to "cheat" with an uppercut swing. Davis helped him for a while, his BA went up and his K's went down, but I think by the second half he starter trying to hit HR when the pitches weren't there in an attempt to generate offense for his team. In short he, like a lot of the guys, was pressing.

With Schwarber I really think what fell apart for him was whatever the hell they had him doing with runners on. Even if you say he fell apart in the second half, he hit .255/.336/.469(118 wRC+) with no one on base in the 2nd half and .169/.304/.338(43 wRC+) with men on base. The contrast there is he hit .269/.404/.538(156
wRC+) with no one on and .225/.338/.450(95 wRC+) with men on in the first half. I'm not educated enough to tell you what he was doing different other than the fact it appears he tried to go the opposite way more and boy did that not work(46.5% pull with no one on/40.7% pull with men on in the 1st, 43.8%/42.5% pull in the second half.

 

[Parade_Rain]

Those are the adjustments the players need to make during the season. Teams pitch Baez away, he has to go out there. They start pitching him in, he moves back. Gotta find a guy they will listen to.

Why do they have to find a guy they will listen to? These guys have heard everything under the sun since playing Little League or their academy in their country right on up to the pro ranks. You think Zobrist doesn't know his swing at this point? Bryant's dad played in the Red Sox organization and got hitting tips from Ted Williams. What hitting instructor does Bryant need to listen to? If the Cubs hired me, I would be more than happy to listen to each player.

 

[bears5150]

What ever happened to see the ball hit the ball, baseball 101

 

[anotheridiot]

Why do they have to find a guy they will listen to? These guys have heard everything under the sun since playing Little League or their academy in their country right on up to the pro ranks. You think Zobrist doesn't know his swing at this point? Bryant's dad played in the Red Sox organization and got hitting tips from Ted Williams. What hitting instructor does Bryant need to listen to? If the Cubs hired me, I would be more than happy to listen to each player.

If you are going to fire and blame the coach, then it sure seems like its important.

A pitching coach does not tell a guy how to throw a baseball, he watches his motion and brings differences to the attention of the guy throwing the ball.

You have to set a limit right? You can sit with Lester, watch film and say, see how your arm slot changed and what movement happened? You can do that with a guy that they get along with and listen too.

Same thing with a hitting coach. You are pulling off the ball. What do you get, **** you, I know what I am doing? Where is the line drawn? 2 years in the majors, 4, 6?

That is all the modern coaches can do, so if they find a guy that played 15 minor league seasons, hit .210 for the 12 games he played in the show, nobody is listening.

 

[anotheridiot]

What ever happened to see the ball hit the ball, baseball 101

Its right along side hit the ball where they ain't.

 

[TC in Mississippi]

And really trying to hit home runs rarely results in hitting home runs. Mostly, it results in failure. Of course you want to hit the ball hard, but that is something you can control within reason. I am a firm believer that, mentally-speaking, HR are accidents.

I would agree, although rather than accidents I would call them functions of successful process but to-may-to/to-mah-to we're saying the same thing. I also think when Theo says things like "we build our offense for power" that people assume he means home runs when he's referring more generally SLG. Extra base hits are power whether thye are HR or not. Our guys were pressing hard in the second half and it was visible. Poke around in the numbers as its proven out by metrics. Some of the stories that are coming out today about some players never paying attention to Davis from minute one, notably Baez who was the best hitter on the squad, are disturbing. They had to m ake a change and it looks like the reasons were multiple.

 

[TC in Mississippi]

Why do they have to find a guy they will listen to? These guys have heard everything under the sun since playing Little League or their academy in their country right on up to the pro ranks. You think Zobrist doesn't know his swing at this point? Bryant's dad played in the Red Sox organization and got hitting tips from Ted Williams. What hitting instructor does Bryant need to listen to? If the Cubs hired me, I would be more than happy to listen to each player.

You got this exactly right. The function of any good manager (small "m" not in baseball terms) is to listen to their charges and help with solutions each according to their individual gifts. Since a hitting coach is essentially a department manager this is no different with baseball. If Davis' system was so rigid that guy were looking elsewhere for help than he was failing at his job, objectively. Like you say, guys know their swings and have their own philosophies on hitting and outside resources to help them with that. A hitting coach's job is to be another resource not to espouse a "my way or the highway" philosophy. Watch, listen advise. It's that simple.

 

[Parade_Rain]

If you are going to fire and blame the coach, then it sure seems like its important.

A pitching coach does not tell a guy how to throw a baseball, he watches his motion and brings differences to the attention of the guy throwing the ball.

You have to set a limit right? You can sit with Lester, watch film and say, see how your arm slot changed and what movement happened? You can do that with a guy that they get along with and listen too.

Same thing with a hitting coach. You are pulling off the ball. What do you get, **** you, I know what I am doing? Where is the line drawn? 2 years in the majors, 4, 6?

That is all the modern coaches can do, so if they find a guy that played 15 minor league seasons, hit .210 for the 12 games he played in the show, nobody is listening.

A coach has to earn the trust of the players, understand what makes each individual tick and adjust to each player. You can't find one guy that when he comes into the shop players are willing to listen to. That is earned by listening and developing that trust. You still wouldn't walk up to a hitter and tell them anything. You ask questions and help them find the answers. Outside of telling players scouting reports and how teams are pitching them, I wouldn't be going into a clubhouse and telling players anything just because I got the job and this is what I see wrong with them or their approach. How did hitters survive before the early 70's when Hitting Coach first became a job?

 

[chibears55]

Manny Ramirez

Didn't he coach Javy Willy Schwarber Almora Bryant in the minors one year

 

[Mr. Cub]

I was thinking about Manny as well. He's o e of the better hitters in history, and has past ties with the Cubs. Plus Javy and others are already familiar with him.

But who knows if Manny even wants a job like that.

 

[anotheridiot]

A coach has to earn the trust of the players, understand what makes each individual tick and adjust to each player. You can't find one guy that when he comes into the shop players are willing to listen to. That is earned by listening and developing that trust. You still wouldn't walk up to a hitter and tell them anything. You ask questions and help them find the answers. Outside of telling players scouting reports and how teams are pitching them, I wouldn't be going into a clubhouse and telling players anything just because I got the job and this is what I see wrong with them or their approach. How did hitters survive before the early 70's when Hitting Coach first became a job?

So this description is not the same as finding a guy they will actually listen to?

 

[Parade_Rain]

So this description is not the same as finding a guy they will actually listen to?

Not even close to your description.

 

[Diehardfan]

Why do they have to find a guy they will listen to? These guys have heard everything under the sun since playing Little League or their academy in their country right on up to the pro ranks. You think Zobrist doesn't know his swing at this point? Bryant's dad played in the Red Sox organization and got hitting tips from Ted Williams. What hitting instructor does Bryant need to listen to? If the Cubs hired me, I would be more than happy to listen to each player.

This ^ I've always felt that hitting coaches were pretty much eye candy anyway. Hired to be fired when a team goes cold. They probably have some use for the kids just starting out but not much at the ML level.

 

[beckdawg]

Why do they have to find a guy they will listen to? These guys have heard everything under the sun since playing Little League or their academy in their country right on up to the pro ranks. You think Zobrist doesn't know his swing at this point? Bryant's dad played in the Red Sox organization and got hitting tips from Ted Williams. What hitting instructor does Bryant need to listen to? If the Cubs hired me, I would be more than happy to listen to each player.

I largely agree with this but I tend to believe there is some things different voices can offer as suggestions. I would liken it to a pitching coach showing a pitcher a different way to grip a pitch. In batting terms it could be something simpler like suggesting Rizzo move closer to the plate which made a big impact for him.