Daily Herald: Bulls prefer Bosh over Amare

[Morten Jensen]

I'll sound like a broken record, but if you end up having your choosing of Amare or Bosh, I would go as far as saying Bosh is a no-brainer. He simply acts more professional, tries to play defense, is younger, healthier and also a better overall player when it comes to ballhandling, passing and overall versatility.

What I really liked about the article was the picture painted about the Bulls remaining interested in Gordon's services if we acquired Bosh.

Be honest, who wouldn't like to see Rose/Gordon/Bosh and one of Salmons or Deng get up and down the floor all night long? Ben would get so many open shots it's ridiculous. We'd be one of the best (of not the best) offensive teams in the NBA. If we can fill out the roster with defensive minded role players, and pending on Noah's physical improvements over the summer, then I'd say we're in good shape.

The question now is; What kind of package do you offer Toronto? We have several:

1. The cost-cutting trade. Brad Miller, Jerome James, Tim Thomas & our picks for Bosh and Kapono. Possibly add in Tyrus on our end and Kris Humphries on their end.

2. The return of talent trade. Luol Deng, pending on Colangelo liking his bounce back chances, Tyrus Thomas and John Salmons for Bosh, Kapono and Humphries.

3. The rebuilding trade. Tyrus Thomas, Joakim Noah & Brad Miller plus our picks for Bosh and Kapono.

We have excellent trading pieces. It's just a question of putting together the right package. One thing I'm sure will happen is Kapono going with Bosh in any deal. Raptors want a bail-out, and this is the chance to get one. Jerome James and his 80% covered contract might also be a sure thing to put in, when you think about it. Since Kapono and James match salary wise, you might start with those two and build up a Bosh trade from there.

 

[Dpauley23]

Bosh also can attract other stars to come with him

 

[dougthonus]

Morten Jensen wrote:

I'll sound like a broken record, but if you end up having your choosing of Amare or Bosh, I would go as far as saying Bosh is a no-brainer. He simply acts more professional, tries to play defense, is younger, healthier and also a better overall player when it comes to ballhandling, passing and overall versatility.

I agree.

What I really liked about the article was the picture painted about the Bulls remaining interested in Gordon's services if we acquired Bosh.

Hopefully this isn't a pipe dream, but I think it is.

Be honest, who wouldn't like to see Rose/Gordon/Bosh and one of Salmons or Deng get up and down the floor all night long? Ben would get so many open shots it's ridiculous. We'd be one of the best (of not the best) offensive teams in the NBA. If we can fill out the roster with defensive minded role players, and pending on Noah's physical improvements over the summer, then I'd say we're in good shape.

And if you have Kirk instead of Gordon in there and one of Salmons/Deng it's still awfully good.

The question now is; What kind of package do you offer Toronto? We have several:

1. The cost-cutting trade. Brad Miller, Jerome James, Tim Thomas & our picks for Bosh and Kapono. Possibly add in Tyrus on our end and Kris Humphries on their end.

2. The return of talent trade. Luol Deng, pending on Colangelo liking his bounce back chances, Tyrus Thomas and John Salmons for Bosh, Kapono and Humphries.

3. The rebuilding trade. Tyrus Thomas, Joakim Noah & Brad Miller plus our picks for Bosh and Kapono.

I don't know if I'd do trade #3, to give Tyrus, Noah, and 2 picks for Bosh and a bad contract would be really difficult to swallow. We'd also have no front court at all left anymore. It'd be Bosh and Tim Thomas, and we'd basically be adding only min level salary guys.

I think if you do the rebuilding trade that instead of sending them Brad Miller, you send them Jerome James and Tim Thomas and you try to keep Joakim Noah. They probably don't really need Miller in that package anyway. Notice though that rebuilding trade and cost cutting trade are basically the same.

I agree with your angles though. I think if we're lucky they want to do return of talent / cost cutting combination trade.

Tyrus + Deng + James + 1st round pick for Bosh + Kapono saves them a lot of money and gives them talent.

It also leaves us with:
Rose, Hinrich, Salmons, Bosh, Noah with Kapono, Miller, Timmy on the bench. We wouldn't have any room to pursue Gordon or other big FAs in this scenario though.

That team isn't a title contender most likely, but it should be a very good team, and it's probably only a piece or two away from contending, and has the primary pieces for a good 5+ years pending health.

 

[Morten Jensen]

dougthonus wrote:

I don't know if I'd do trade #3, to give Tyrus, Noah, and 2 picks for Bosh and a bad contract would be really difficult to swallow. We'd also have no front court at all left anymore. It'd be Bosh and Tim Thomas, and we'd basically be adding only min level salary guys.

After reviewing it, I kind of agree. Noah or Miller would have to be kept. Preferably Noah.

I think if you do the rebuilding trade that instead of sending them Brad Miller, you send them Jerome James and Tim Thomas and you try to keep Joakim Noah. They probably don't really need Miller in that package anyway. Notice though that rebuilding trade and cost cutting trade are basically the same.

If it can be done without adding Miller, I'll take it in a heartbeat. Miller is a $12M expiring who can fetch a ton at the deadline, if we wish to go that direction. Somehow, I think Toronto feels that way too, and might ask for him just to have a big contract that can be moved easily.

I agree with your angles though. I think if we're lucky they want to do return of talent / cost cutting combination trade.

Tyrus + Deng + James + 1st round pick for Bosh + Kapono saves them a lot of money and gives them talent.

It also leaves us with:
Rose, Hinrich, Salmons, Bosh, Noah with Kapono, Miller, Timmy on the bench. We wouldn't have any room to pursue Gordon or other big FAs in this scenario though.

I know you've lately argued that Hinrich could be kept over Gordon. I can see the reasoning and even agree that, in some respects, it might be a good decision. But if there's one thing we shouldn't do, it's starting Kirk at the two. Him and Derrick doesn't really flow all that well, and having a scoring two-guard like Gordon in there, would make us a fantastic offensive team, who could dominate in the regular season. I do ackowledge we'll need defense, but that's not impossible to acquire.

Put it this way. I'd rather be an offensive force with slightly below average defense, than being 'just' above average offensively with average defense. Obviously, the summer could see us acquire role players who can score or defend, so either way, we'll manage. But my personal preference here has to be Gordon. Not because I'm religiously devoted to him, but because the advantages of having such an elite shooter on such a balanced offensive team, would see us play the most efficient offense since the Jordan era, and maybe even take us far in the playoffs. It's not a finished team by any stretch of the imagination, as I do agree we'll need defense.

Also. You raised a point about us not having any back-up PG without Kirk, which is a legit concern. But considering how much Ben and John handles the ball, a cheap veteran like Chucky Atkins or Anthony Carter could be fine.

Again. Just my personal preference. If such an offensive team would work is anyone's guess when Del Negro is our head coach.

That team isn't a title contender most likely, but it should be a very good team, and it's probably only a piece or two away from contending, and has the primary pieces for a good 5+ years pending health.

I think Gordon over Kirk makes us closer to being a title contender. But I agree that Kirk over Gordon wouldn't hinter us all that much, especially with Kapono coming off the bench. Looking at the roster you presented, the missing piece is basically a tougher front-line. Add two players who can play defense, block shots and rebound the ball, and you're pretty much golden, IMO.

 

[dougthonus]

If it can be done without adding Miller, I'll take it in a heartbeat. Miller is a $12M expiring who can fetch a ton at the deadline, if we wish to go that direction. Somehow, I think Toronto feels that way too, and might ask for him just to have a big contract that can be moved easily.

If you swap out Miller with Tim Thomas and Jerome James though, they're worth even more at the deadline because they are more flexible. Together they are the same as Miller except that you won't have to pay James, and then you can also move them separately to take a mid level guy.

I know you've lately argued that Hinrich could be kept over Gordon. I can see the reasoning and even agree that, in some respects, it might be a good decision. But if there's one thing we shouldn't do, it's starting Kirk at the two. Him and Derrick doesn't really flow all that well, and having a scoring two-guard like Gordon in there, would make us a fantastic offensive team, who could dominate in the regular season. I do ackowledge we'll need defense, but that's not impossible to acquire.

You have to remember that Chris Bosh is going to change the scoring dynamic a ton if he's in the picture. You're all of a sudden basically doubling the scoring output of your front court, so your need for scoring in the backcourt lessons, and Hinrich isn't a crap scorer. He's definitely not someone you can leave alone or cheat off of.

Put it this way. I'd rather be an offensive force with slightly below average defense, than being 'just' above average offensively with average defense. Obviously, the summer could see us acquire role players who can score or defend, so either way, we'll manage. But my personal preference here has to be Gordon. Not because I'm religiously devoted to him, but because the advantages of having such an elite shooter on such a balanced offensive team, would see us play the most efficient offense since the Jordan era, and maybe even take us far in the playoffs. It's not a finished team by any stretch of the imagination, as I do agree we'll need defense.

I think you'll still struggle to find any way to fit Gordon into the payroll regardless. Especially if we trade for Bosh/Amare, it's almost a lock we'll take back more salary than we'll send. If there is some miracle deal out there to keep Gordon rather than Hinrich I'm certainly open to the idea, but I don't think it's going to end up being a big deal one way or the other.

 

[Morten Jensen]

dougthonus wrote:

If you swap out Miller with Tim Thomas and Jerome James though, they're worth even more at the deadline because they are more flexible. Together they are the same as Miller except that you won't have to pay James, and then you can also move them separately to take a mid level guy.

While that is completely true, I remember several notions from articles around the deadline, that having one large expiring deal for 2010 might be a huge plus, as the team in question could make one-for-one deals. But considering we have both options (one big, two small), this might not apply to us.

You have to remember that Chris Bosh is going to change the scoring dynamic a ton if he's in the picture. You're all of a sudden basically doubling the scoring output of your front court, so your need for scoring in the backcourt lessons, and Hinrich isn't a crap scorer. He's definitely not someone you can leave alone or cheat off of.

I hate using Phoenix as an example, but they had Amare scoring 26, Marion 19, Johnson 17, Nash 16 and Richardson 15 per game in 04/05. Even Jim Jackson and Barbosa chipped in with 9 and 7 respectively. Granted, they had a much better coach and the difference in talent might also play a factor. But it's possible to insert Bosh to this team and still have Ben Gordon be a big time impact player. More than likely, Ben would still put up close to 20, but on fewer shots thanks to Rose and Bosh.

I agree that the need of scoring in the back-court lessons, but if we could maintain it anyway, we'd be downright nasty. Which is exactly what I want to try to do. If there's one guy I'm not worried about when it comes to these things, it's Ben Gordon. He'll get his numbers and present himself as a major court-spreader for both Rose and Bosh. With John Salmons in there taking open shots and waiting for open lanes, this team could be extremely special. This would only work with better ball-movement, though. We would have to swing the ball better and take quick shots.

I think you'll still struggle to find any way to fit Gordon into the payroll regardless. Especially if we trade for Bosh/Amare, it's almost a lock we'll take back more salary than we'll send. If there is some miracle deal out there to keep Gordon rather than Hinrich I'm certainly open to the idea, but I don't think it's going to end up being a big deal one way or the other.

The Hinrich to Minnesota idea that's floating around could be step one. Let's say Kirk for Craig Smith. Minnesota have Al Jefferson and Kevin Love at the PF position anyway, so such a deal would likely be fine with them. That clears $7M immediately. It's not easy, but if we could make a few tweeks here and there, and possibly move Brad Miller in a cost-cutting move, we could find a way.

It would be a hell of a lot easier if uncle Jerry just paid up. Who knows, getting Bosh might entice him to do that..

(Okay, I couldn't say that with a straight face)

 

[Basghetti80]

Doug, you know I like the Deng, Tyrus, James, 09 picks for Bosh and Kapano deal. That is my favorite deal we can do this summer. Assuming Kirk stays in this scenario and Ben walks then I would want us to add a SF with some length and athleticism to help defensively and start at SF so Kirk could be the 3rd guard with Rose and Salmons and then Kapano be SG/SF shooter off the bench. Do you think we could bring someone in cheap for that role like maybe a Matt Barnes?

Rose,Kirk
Salmons,(Kirk)
Barnes,Kapano
Bosh,(Barnes), Timmy
Noah,Miller,


That might not be an elite team but is top 4 in the East with room to grow and cap space when Miller and Timmy come off the books.

 

[dougthonus]

Morten Jensen wrote:

While that is completely true, I remember several notions from articles around the deadline, that having one large expiring deal for 2010 might be a huge plus, as the team in question could make one-for-one deals. But considering we have both options (one big, two small), this might not apply to us.

This depends on the situation and the other players leaving in a trade. It might be more advantageous to a team to get 2 guys or it may be more advantageous to get 1. Purely financially two guys saves more money because if it's one guy, you still need to pay another to fill that final roster spot.

However, it would depend more on the team and what else is involved, they may have too many roster spots filled and not want to make room for two instead, so it could go either way.

I hate using Phoenix as an example, but they had Amare scoring 26, Marion 19, Johnson 17, Nash 16 and Richardson 15 per game in 04/05. Even Jim Jackson and Barbosa chipped in with 9 and 7 respectively. Granted, they had a much better coach and the difference in talent might also play a factor. But it's possible to insert Bosh to this team and still have Ben Gordon be a big time impact player. More than likely, Ben would still put up close to 20, but on fewer shots thanks to Rose and Bosh.

It's possible for that to happen sure. However, the importance of a guy who's primary strength is scoring and has several other weaknesses would lesson. Gordon would theoretically downgrade from #1 option last year to #3 option. That makes him far more deadly as a #3 option because you can't double the 3rd option, but at the same time, it means we'll rely on him less.

You could make the case in that scenario that having someone with more all around skills that will always be needed is just as valuable as someone with an elite scoring skill in a position where an elite scorer isn't necessarily needed.

I agree that the need of scoring in the back-court lessons, but if we could maintain it anyway, we'd be downright nasty. Which is exactly what I want to try to do. If there's one guy I'm not worried about when it comes to these things, it's Ben Gordon. He'll get his numbers and present himself as a major court-spreader for both Rose and Bosh. With John Salmons in there taking open shots and waiting for open lanes, this team could be extremely special. This would only work with better ball-movement, though. We would have to swing the ball better and take quick shots.

I certainly would not be opposed to keeping Gordon so don't get me wrong, but thinking of his primary strengths, scoring and clutch shooting, and they aren't as important as Rose becomes the finisher in the future and Bosh comes in to help with the scoring. Having a good perimeter defender may be more important or just as important at that point.

The Hinrich to Minnesota idea that's floating around could be step one. Let's say Kirk for Craig Smith. Minnesota have Al Jefferson and Kevin Love at the PF position anyway, so such a deal would likely be fine with them. That clears $7M immediately. It's not easy, but if we could make a few tweeks here and there, and possibly move Brad Miller in a cost-cutting move, we could find a way.

Hinrich to Minnesota is going to be iffy though. Minnesota actually doesn't have much cap room, definitely not enough to clear off 7 million in salary for Kirk. Maybe we can find a way, but maybe not. A lot of it will depend on the Bosh trade, say we take on 3 million extra in salary in that trade, and now you've lost most of your flexibility to have a chance at Gordon.

I think one of Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, and Salmons has to go. It will be interesting to see which one is chosen. The thing is you may not be able to pick Deng. His contract may force him to stay.

 

[dougthonus]

Basghetti80 wrote:

Doug, you know I like the Deng, Tyrus, James, 09 picks for Bosh and Kapano deal. That is my favorite deal we can do this summer. Assuming Kirk stays in this scenario and Ben walks then I would want us to add a SF with some length and athleticism to help defensively and start at SF so Kirk could be the 3rd guard with Rose and Salmons and then Kapano be SG/SF shooter off the bench. Do you think we could bring someone in cheap for that role like maybe a Matt Barnes?

Rose,Kirk
Salmons,(Kirk)
Barnes,Kapano
Bosh,(Barnes), Timmy
Noah,Miller,


That might not be an elite team but is top 4 in the East with room to grow and cap space when Miller and Timmy come off the books.

Barnes wouldn't be a bad guy to choose in that scenario, but I think we'd probably start Kirk, Rose, Salmons, Bosh, and Noah

With Miller, Kapono, Barnes and Timmy off the bench.

 

[cool007]

Yes, I think this is the main reason Paxson traded Hugheless to Knicks and his gigantic contract for 2 smaller contracts. Even though all of these contracts expire at the same time, having smaller contracts are HUGE.

I think we will be contenders (probably better than Orlando Magic with a better coach), if we were to get Bosh this summer.

Fingers Crossed. X

 

[dougthonus]

cool007 wrote:

Yes, I think this is the main reason Paxson traded Hugheless to Knicks and his gigantic contract for 2 smaller contracts. Even though all of these contracts expire at the same time, having smaller contracts are HUGE.

I think we will be contenders (probably better than Orlando Magic with a better coach), if we were to get Bosh this summer.

Fingers Crossed. X

The biggest difference in that trade is Jerome James' deal being covered by insurance. With James not having to be paid his expiring deal is like a mega expiring. It offers instant salary relief (though not cap relief for teams near the tax) which makes it far more valuable than most expirings.

His value though is at it's peak this summer. By the deadline 2/3rds of the salaries are paid, so the amount you are saving is minimal.

 

[senrad]

Bosh or Amare are franchise changers. I don't want to get excited about it until it happens though. I hate getting worked up for FAs or trades and then coming away with Robinson and Mercer.

 

[dougthonus]

senrad wrote:

Bosh or Amare are franchise changers. I don't want to get excited about it until it happens though. I hate getting worked up for FAs or trades and then coming away with Robinson and Mercer.

No doubt.

We've had our hopes up about many big name players only to see them go elsewhere or not go anywhere. Hopefully this will be our summer. We'll be one of the teams seriously in the mix that's for sure.

 

[Morten Jensen]

dougthonus wrote:

This depends on the situation and the other players leaving in a trade. It might be more advantageous to a team to get 2 guys or it may be more advantageous to get 1. Purely financially two guys saves more money because if it's one guy, you still need to pay another to fill that final roster spot.

However, it would depend more on the team and what else is involved, they may have too many roster spots filled and not want to make room for two instead, so it could go either way.

True. Good thing we have both options to offer, then.

It's possible for that to happen sure. However, the importance of a guy who's primary strength is scoring and has several other weaknesses would lesson. Gordon would theoretically downgrade from #1 option last year to #3 option. That makes him far more deadly as a #3 option because you can't double the 3rd option, but at the same time, it means we'll rely on him less.

You could make the case in that scenario that having someone with more all around skills that will always be needed is just as valuable as someone with an elite scoring skill in a position where an elite scorer isn't necessarily needed.

I'm not really one of those 'option' guys. I think the open man gets the shot, and pecking orders aren't necessarily written in stone. Gordon, be that 1st, 2nd or 3rd option, will demand a lot of attention either way, which you said. So in some ways, I don't really see us relying on him less. He's going to be our best court spreader and shooter hands down. You could suggest Kapono, but he's not a starting caliber player.

The way I see it, you will have three guys who can all fill it up, and it's really up in the air which player turns hot each night. I don't expect Rose, Gordon and Bosh to turn into the second coming of Tim Hardaway, Mitch Richmond and Chris Mullin. But three players sharing the large majority of the offensive responsability seems like a good idea to me. Call it option 1A, 1B and 1C with John Salmons option 2.

I may be overly optimistic in this. But I simply can't imagine our need for perimeter scoring decline, even with a front-court scorer like Bosh. If Rose was a deadly shooter, I would definitely change my view.

I certainly would not be opposed to keeping Gordon so don't get me wrong, but thinking of his primary strengths, scoring and clutch shooting, and they aren't as important as Rose becomes the finisher in the future and Bosh comes in to help with the scoring. Having a good perimeter defender may be more important or just as important at that point.

Oh no, I know you like Ben. I wasn't suggesting you wanted him gone. My apologies if it came out that way.

My entire idea is based on the image of having a guy control the mid-range area (Rose), one to handle the outside (Gordon) and one taking care of business inside (Bosh) - All three meshed in a synchronizing effort and with John Salmons mixing it up whenever the opportunity presents itself.

You know what? I think you understand me. No need to dig deeper

Re: Perimeter defense.

I won't even argue that it's important and we would need it. I absolutely, positively agree. I just think it's hard to compare versus a possible elite offense. I'd probably sacrifice some defense to turn into elite level offensively, but then again, I'll hate not having a strong defensive guard. It's borderline Sophie's Choice, but in the end, I'll rather opt for the offensive angle.

Hinrich to Minnesota is going to be iffy though. Minnesota actually doesn't have much cap room, definitely not enough to clear off 7 million in salary for Kirk. Maybe we can find a way, but maybe not. A lot of it will depend on the Bosh trade, say we take on 3 million extra in salary in that trade, and now you've lost most of your flexibility to have a chance at Gordon.

I think one of Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, and Salmons has to go. It will be interesting to see which one is chosen. The thing is you may not be able to pick Deng. His contract may force him to stay.

Minnesota will be at approx. $50M next season. So that's my fault. I was under the impression they were in the low to mid 40's. Then it does present a larger problem than I originally anticipated.

Agreed about Deng. This is a fingers crossed situation that Toronto would take him on.

In the end, this comes down to Jerry. He will have to go into luxury tax. If Bosh arrives and Chicago has the chance to sign Ben, while being just a few million over the barrier, then I really, really hope we fans let him hear about it, if he declines signing Ben. This is a situation where you gamble and spend money to significally improve your team.

 

[collisrost]

What I am taking from this discussion is that we're very well placed to make a trade for Bosh and can give the raps any kind of return they might like. Paxson sure did a good job in positioning us for this. It's like Doug always says, pax seems to do the logical thing every time.