Dalton will be JF1's sideline coach (clipboard holder)

[Canth]

I've followed it closely and the only thing I can think of is it was a combination of:

• City was a bit too big for him
• He felt the team lied to him - This is a combo of his development plan to drafting Hurts
• Injures piled up - This is compounded in a big market
• 2020 OL looked like the MASH infantry
• Pressure to do what Foles did as opposed to appreciate the team accomplishment
• Wasn't being coached hard - HC Doug Pederson and QB coach Press Taylor let him get away with too much
• Relationship between the HC and GM deteriorated - rumors are he stopped talking to Doug for stretches of 2020 and before he was traded Wentz would take calls from anyone other than Roseman

It's just sad. Honestly if the Eagles didn't win a Superbowl in 2017 this would be regarded as one of the biggest player/team divorces of the city. Probably comparable to Reggie White forcing his way out.

IMO, Wentz's decline was likely do to:

1) Injuries
2) Coaching changes (Lost both Reich and DeFilippo after his MVP type performance)
3) Pressure to do what Foles did that was compounded due to the injuries giving Foles the postseason starts

It will be interesting to see how much, if any, form Wentz regains now that he is back with Reich.

One thing that can be good, but also worries me a bit with Fields is the potential for injuries. The guy has shown toughness and he has had to because he has taken some big shots. People like to talk about the athletism and being able to run 4.4, etc..but personally I like that the guy developed his game a bit this past year to stay and work the pocket a bit more.

You don't want to take away his ability run and stress the defense, but I think you need to be careful to about putting your qb in harm's way too much. That is a good way for a guy to get hurt.

 

[JoJoBoxer]

He’s slightly better with more in game experience. I can’t break this down any further. Fuck.

Ok, I will be easy on you.

You had a good point. Dalton has more experience starting, so that is a positive.

That was your point, and it is a good point. He is better than Foles.

Just be careful adding useless information like stuff like Cousins stats. What do Cousins stats have to do with the Bears?

 

[JoJoBoxer]

I agree 100%, but also think that's flawed logic. You'll be comparing the two while they are throwing against air (no D), in 1-on-1 and in specific game scripted situations. That's nice, but far from playing against a defense looking to trick the O.

If Fields is completely killing it while Dalton seems to be stumbling in practice, then sure an argument can be made, but I'd expect Dalton, an 11 year pro, to be consistent in all the drills that he's been doing the past 11 seasons. I'm not saying Fields is a flop, but Dalton just has a lot more experience when it comes to executing in training camp AND in NFL games.

I want to be 100% clear. In wanting the best for Fields in Chicago I want him to sit this season. Based on a few of the criticisms from knowledgable analysts (For me that's Simms and Cosell) I think it's best for him to take a season and adjust to the speed of the game while working on his mechanics and progressions. It's no different than when he sat and watched Jake Fromm in Georgia as a freshman. I just feel that approach is consistent to what happened in college, which lead to him being worth a high draft pick.

I am all for Fields sitting some amount of time (half the season? The whole season?).

It is true that Fields sitting behind Fromm allowed the Bears to get Fields. However; I think that is because, if given the chance, Fields would have done very well in Georgia and would have never transferred to Ohio State. He would have had 3 years of solid play and would have probably gone 2nd. I don't think that Lawrence is so much better than Fields that he could have had a huge freshman season while Fields would have struggled.

But college football is not NFL football.

 

[JoJoBoxer]

I've followed it closely and the only thing I can think of is it was a combination of:

• City was a bit too big for him
• He felt the team lied to him - This is a combo of his development plan to drafting Hurts
• Injures piled up - This is compounded in a big market
• 2020 OL looked like the MASH infantry
• Pressure to do what Foles did as opposed to appreciate the team accomplishment
• Wasn't being coached hard - HC Doug Pederson and QB coach Press Taylor let him get away with too much
• Relationship between the HC and GM deteriorated - rumors are he stopped talking to Doug for stretches of 2020 and before he was traded Wentz would take calls from anyone other than Roseman

It's just sad. Honestly if the Eagles didn't win a Superbowl in 2017 this would be regarded as one of the biggest player/team divorces of the city. Probably comparable to Reggie White forcing his way out.

The Eagles from that time period were really good.

 

[ThatGuyRyan]

Ok, I will be easy on you.

You had a good point. Dalton has more experience starting, so that is a positive.

That was your point, and it is a good point. He is better than Foles.

Just be careful adding useless information like stuff like Cousins stats. What do Cousins stats have to do with the Bears?

I explained it in the original post

 

[Bears4Ever_34]

Andy Dalton is actually a worse version of Nick Foles.

I think people just assume Dalton will be better because he's the new guy, and they have a visual of how Foles looked like last year even though the entire time he started, he played behind a 2nd and 3rd string offensive line during the meatiest part of the schedule.

 

[PrideisBears]

What is this thread even about?

 

[Pegger]

The Eagles from that time period were really good.

Go on... I'm listening...

 

[Pegger]

I am all for Fields sitting some amount of time (half the season? The whole season?).

It is true that Fields sitting behind Fromm allowed the Bears to get Fields. However; I think that is because, if given the chance, Fields would have done very well in Georgia and would have never transferred to Ohio State. He would have had 3 years of solid play and would have probably gone 2nd. I don't think that Lawrence is so much better than Fields that he could have had a huge freshman season while Fields would have struggled.

But college football is not NFL football.

That's all speculation.

The fact is when transitioning from high school ball to college he essentially had a red shirt year watching what was an NFL draftable QB. After that, he went on to start 2 seasons with very good results.

You can argue he could have done better with going straight from high school to college, but there's no way of verifying that and it's just random speculation.

I'm saying it might be best to replicate how Fields has succeeded in the past, hoping for similar results. It's simple and makes sense. Give him a year to adjust for the different speed, reads and execution. From there let him sink or swim.

 

[MikeDitkaPolishSausage]

That's all speculation.

The fact is when transitioning from high school ball to college he essentially had a red shirt year watching what was an NFL draftable QB. After that, he went on to start 2 seasons with very good results.

You can argue he could have done better with going straight from high school to college, but there's no way of verifying that and it's just random speculation.

I'm saying it might be best to replicate how Fields has succeeded in the past, hoping for similar results. It's simple and makes sense. Give him a year to adjust for the different speed, reads and execution. From there let him sink or swim.

I get what your saying but your second to last sentence is what I never agree with. You are not going to adjust to the speed, reads and execution by sitting on the bench. Practicing against your teammates for a full year is not the same as playing against other teams. The only way to adjust to all the is in game experience. Let him learn and struggle for a year if needed.

 

[Discus fish salesman]

Andy Dalton is actually a worse version of Nick Foles.

I think people just assume Dalton will be better because he's the new guy, and they have a visual of how Foles looked like last year even though the entire time he started, he played behind a 2nd and 3rd string offensive line during the meatiest part of the schedule.

I'm going to disagree. But it is definitely debatable. My thing is Dalton has never been as bad as foles at his worst. Foles wasn't given a chance with the bears line though you are correct

 

[Canth]

I get what your saying but your second to last sentence is what I never agree with. You are not going to adjust to the speed, reads and execution by sitting on the bench. Practicing against your teammates for a full year is not the same as playing against other teams. The only way to adjust to all the is in game experience. Let him learn and struggle for a year if needed.

To that point, Fields actually also played throughout the year at Georgia. Presumably, they had set packages for him and he got playing time in basically every game and/or in the case of a blow-out. He did not just sit on the bench all year. However, imo, that kinda stuff doesn't really work at the NFL level. The only ones who have tried to do anything like that in recent memory is the Saints with Brees and Hill and quite honestly the only reason that was a thing was because Brees's arm was shot for any really long pass required plays or was odd short yardage stuff with Hill.

The only other one that springs to mind, and with the Bears, was...did Wannstedt try to work McNown in on set packages? I seem to remember something like that failing horribly.

 

[JoJoBoxer]

That's all speculation.

The fact is when transitioning from high school ball to college he essentially had a red shirt year watching what was an NFL draftable QB. After that, he went on to start 2 seasons with very good results.

You can argue he could have done better with going straight from high school to college, but there's no way of verifying that and it's just random speculation.

I'm saying it might be best to replicate how Fields has succeeded in the past, hoping for similar results. It's simple and makes sense. Give him a year to adjust for the different speed, reads and execution. From there let him sink or swim.

Just as saying that sitting for a year at Georgia helped Fields development is also pure speculation.

 

[JoJoBoxer]

Go on... I'm listening...

Using the late 80s as examples, Reggie White was probably the best of all time at his position getting 18 sacks in '88.

By 1989, Jerome Brown was coming into his own getting 10.5 sacks. Clyde Simmons actually got more sacks than White (15.5 to 11). How often does a team have 3 defenders with 10+ sacks.

They had Seth Joyner at linebacker, Eric Allen at CB and two really good safeties in Andre Waters and Wes Hopkins.

They were an extremely good defense until White left after 1992.

I always wondered if Reggie White would have stayed if Jerome Brown hadn't dies in a 1992 car accident.

 

[SlickWilly]

Looking at your posts show you're in the same boat. Alex Bars the future at guard? Trubisky better than Mahomes?

Come on man.

Still waiting for you to show me where I said Trubisky is better than Mahomes dumb fuck.

 

[Pegger]

Using the late 80s as examples, Reggie White was probably the best of all time at his position getting 18 sacks in '88.

By 1989, Jerome Brown was coming into his own getting 10.5 sacks. Clyde Simmons actually got more sacks than White (15.5 to 11). How often does a team have 3 defenders with 10+ sacks.

They had Seth Joyner at linebacker, Eric Allen at CB and two really good safeties in Andre Waters and Wes Hopkins.

They were an extremely good defense until White left after 1992.

I always wondered if Reggie White would have stayed if Jerome Brown hadn't dies in a 1992 car accident.

Reggie's reason for leaving the Eagles was all about the front office. They bought out his rookie deal and offered him a fairly low ball deal, which he ended up accepting. After that his agent was hired to do contracts with the Eagles, so obviously he felt there was a conflict of interest. Ultimately he ended up suing the team to force him into free agency.

Norman Braman wasn't that great of an owner. With his brother in law he bought the team from Leonard Tose. Tose was loved by the players and fans largely for his generosity, but he was also addicted to gambling and booze. He was the owner who would party with the players after a big win. Braman was able to buy the team fairly cheap ($65M) in 1986 then sold it just 8 years later for $185M. The car dealership billionaire saw the team as an investment and had people in there to control expenses.

That defense was amazing. Buddy Ryan, despite not being a good head coach, was loved for how he'd constantly attacked on defense. They had the potential to win a Superbowl, but ultimately the ownership being 'cheap' and the coach really disregarding the importance of the offensive side of the ball lead to them never reaching their potential.

 

[Pegger]

I get what your saying but your second to last sentence is what I never agree with. You are not going to adjust to the speed, reads and execution by sitting on the bench. Practicing against your teammates for a full year is not the same as playing against other teams. The only way to adjust to all the is in game experience. Let him learn and struggle for a year if needed.

So players like Aaron Rodgers, Patrick Mahomes, Lamar Jackson, Cason Palmer, Eli Manning and Philip Rivers would have actually been better if they started right away? Interesting theory....

I'm not saying it's impossible to make that step up right away, but rather some shouldn't. Some people just aren't built to fail on the biggest stage, dust themselves off and build off of the 'learning opportunity'. Some people just need a bit of training wheels before they can ride.

To focus on Justin for a second, the knock on him is processing speed. All the physical tools are there, but he has to see reads earlier or with better anticipation. IMHO when it's a mental item where you are asking him to think faster if he starts taking an extra half second on a read it becomes a vicious circle. That can lead to him overthinking or even mechanical issues popping up like the yips in golf.

I want to maximize his chance of success. For me it makes sense to be as comfortable in the transition as possible. Why not replicate how he transitioned from high school to college in letting him sit for a season? Maybe the other way of looking at it, why do things differently? If you want him to be your QB for the next 10+ years, what's the rush?

 

[Pegger]

Just as saying that sitting for a year at Georgia helped Fields development is also pure speculation.

Well, there's the results, right? It's what happened and he succeeded, so it's a part of the process. I'm not saying him sitting at Georgia is the only reason he succeeded, but rather it's one part of his college success. There's no way of determine how important it was, but is there a pressing reason to change the process?

 

[Pegger]

IMO, Wentz's decline was likely do to:

1) Injuries
2) Coaching changes (Lost both Reich and DeFilippo after his MVP type performance)
3) Pressure to do what Foles did that was compounded due to the injuries giving Foles the postseason starts

It will be interesting to see how much, if any, form Wentz regains now that he is back with Reich.

One thing that can be good, but also worries me a bit with Fields is the potential for injuries. The guy has shown toughness and he has had to because he has taken some big shots. People like to talk about the athletism and being able to run 4.4, etc..but personally I like that the guy developed his game a bit this past year to stay and work the pocket a bit more.

You don't want to take away his ability run and stress the defense, but I think you need to be careful to about putting your qb in harm's way too much. That is a good way for a guy to get hurt.

I think Wentz returns to top 10 type form. He'll have injury issues his entire career. That's partially because of how he plays and also that he's he's a type A personality that will run his body into the ground. He skirts that risk/reward line often and for him to realize all benefits of improvising he's got to risk his physical well being.

IMHO Indy will be excellent for him. It's not only about the coaches, but I really think he's not a big city guy. Outside of being the first one in and the last one out he's a quite guy. In Philly he bought a massive acreage outside of city and outside of charitable ventures he was just hunting and working on his land with his free time. It reminded me of Favre liking to cut grass in retirement. Not all personalities want everything that comes with being in a big market. It also makes me wonder how guys like Favre/Rodgers would have done in that sort of atmosphere.

 

[JoJoBoxer]

Well, there's the results, right? It's what happened and he succeeded, so it's a part of the process. I'm not saying him sitting at Georgia is the only reason he succeeded, but rather it's one part of his college success. There's no way of determine how important it was, but is there a pressing reason to change the process?

No, good try but no. There is no cause and effect that can be taken for it.

Trevor Lawrence did not have any sitting to learn the offense and he had success from the start.

Trevor Lawrence and Fields were QB 1A & 1B since either one was in college.

Chances are that Fields would have had the same type of success as Lawrence right from the start.



Now, after saying all this, I am of the belief that he should sit a little to start his NFL career because the NFL is much different that the college game. Let him catch up to the NFL game speed. Let the offense figure out its blocking assignments. Then let him have half a season or so to do some on the job learning.