Daunte Culpepper QB prototype...what happened?

[airtime143]

Daunte's career stats are quite interesting.
Goes off for a passer rating of 110.9 back in 2004 (which I believe Randy had a terrible year) and then proceeds to be a replacement level QB(or worse) the rest of his career. Completely forgot he played for both the Raiders & the Lions and his 1st year starting was his only season with a winning record

Moss had a solid year in 04... just not a MOSS style year.

one thing to consider when looking at Culpeppers career with Minny was the "Randy Ratio".
Tice wanted 40% or more of all passes his way.
I think that led to a lot of Culpeppers struggles.... holding the ball and waiting for his shot, throwing in to tight coverage....
that team was a mess.

 

[run and shoot]

Nothing wrong with Sammy Winder. 2 pro bowls.

	Terrell Davis vs Sammy Winder . Who meant the most....u make the call

 

[run and shoot]

run and shoot said:

There have been Qb's i.e. Staubach, Tarkenton, Elway, Cunningham, Young, Donovan McNabb( he hurt himself by letting some ppl. convince him not to use his mobility), Steve McNair, Jeff Zorn, Flutie, I can list more but they all combined passing &mobility effectively.

Well, McNabb was a good athlete. Ex point guard at Syracuse and it showed on the field. I would say he needed a coach Andy Reid to really make his career what it was.

One item people always forget about McNabb is despite being athletic he was not physically reliable. In each of his last 5 seasons with the Eagles he missed time due to injury. Technically in his 13 season career he was only fully healthy for 4 them (I'm including his only SB appearance in 2004 where he sat out a meaningless week 17 game).

IMHO if McNabb was in an offense that asked him to run a lot he would have been the pre-RG3.

He was a smart Qb with athletic ability. IMHO had he used all his skills more often, he wouda' been injured less. As I recall the majority of his injuries came in the pocket. Plus, until he got Terrell Owens, he never had a legitimate " go to wr".

IMHO if McNabb was in an offense that asked him to run a lot he would have been the pre-RG3.

.....sure and he'd probably have had no career due to injury like RG3. Designed runs put a Qb in danger.

 

[run and shoot]

Agreed. And he (McNabb ) was also very inaccurate. He could scramble like crazy, buy time and hit a receiver wide open down the field after buying the time, but on typical short and medium passes he was often throwing it at receivers feet that were open.

And he was also very inaccurate

At one point in his career, McNabb was the all-time TD-INT. ratio leader. I'll take that type of so-called "inaccuracy" any day of the week.

 

[Bearly]

	Terrell Davis vs Sammy Winder . Who meant the most....u make the call

Rather simplistic. Winder didn't hold Elway back, more SB appearances than Davis. Elway just couldn't close the deal. Kinda the point.

 

[run and shoot]

run and shoot said:

Terrell Davis vs Sammy Winder . Who meant the most....u make the call

Rather simplistic. Winder didn't hold Elway back, more SB appearances than Davis. Elway just couldn't close the deal. Kinda the point.

Well my point was Winder did not represent a true running game.
Hence, when the Broncos got Davis, they had a real running game which propelled them to the SB. There have been many stories about how Davis was the "missing piece" in Denver's march to the SB.

 

[run and shoot]

bamainatlanta said:


Daunte's career stats are quite interesting.
Goes off for a passer rating of 110.9 back in 2004 (which I believe Randy had a terrible year) and then proceeds to be a replacement level QB(or worse) the rest of his career. Completely forgot he played for both the Raiders & the Lions and his 1st year starting was his only season with a winning record

Moss had a solid year in 04... just not a MOSS style year.

one thing to consider when looking at Culpeppers career with Minny was the "Randy Ratio".
Tice wanted 40% or more of all passes his way.
I think that led to a lot of Culpeppers struggles.... holding the ball and waiting for his shot, throwing in to tight coverage....
that team was a mess.

...one thing to consider when looking at Culpeppers career with Minny was the "Randy Ratio".
Tice wanted 40% or more of all passes his way.
I think that led to a lot of Culpeppers struggles

Truth

 

[Bearly]

http://www.chicitysports.com/forum/index.php?goto/post&id=3091464


Well my point was Winder did not represent a true running game.
Hence, when the Broncos got Davis, they had a real running game which propelled them to the SB. There have been many stories about how Davis was the "missing piece" in Denver's march to the SB.

They were as high as the #6 rushing team with multiple Pro Bowl RB Winder and top 10 twice. That's far from no running game, especially for an AFC team in that era.

Davis was the driving force in one of the SB wins and only averaged 3.4 ypc in the other when Elway played a very mature and patient game. Something he was not really capable of in the 1st 1/2 of his career. It takes a complete team to win championships and pointing at Davis in an Elway thread isn't saying much of anything about Elway unless you are suggesting he didn't really improve his perspective on the position and it was all about letting Davis run. If Elway played with that same maturity in the 3 SBs he played with Winder, he'd have had at least one more title. If you can't understand that, you're still the same old run and shoot.

Here's the quote you had issue with.

"And the only one to win a SB was Elway when he got old, slow and actually learned how to play the position with his head instead of his legs and hero throws."

How was that not the case? I watched his career from the day he got drafted and with all his skills, thought he would never really get it. It took being forced to mature that got the most consistent play out of him. Did Davis help, sure and a lot but that's not why he changed.

 

[airtime143]

They were as high as the #6 rushing team with multiple Pro Bowl RB Winder and top 10 twice. That's far from no running game, especially for an AFC team in that era.

Davis was the driving force in one of the SB wins and only averaged 3.4 ypc in the other when Elway played a very mature and patient game. Something he was not really capable of in the 1st 1/2 of his career. It takes a complete team to win championships and pointing at Davis in an Elway thread isn't saying much of anything about Elway unless you are suggesting he didn't really improve his perspective on the position and it was all about letting Davis run. If Elway played with that same maturity in the 3 SBs he played with Winder, he'd have had at least one more title. If you can't understand that, you're still the same old run and shoot.

Here's the quote you had issue with.

"And the only one to win a SB was Elway when he got old, slow and actually learned how to play the position with his head instead of his legs and hero throws."

How was that not the case? I watched his career from the day he got drafted and with all his skills, thought he would never really get it. It took being forced to mature that got the most consistent play out of him. Did Davis help, sure and a lot but that's not why he changed.

Elway did mature... but his contribution to the last super bowl was EXCLUSIVELY hero throws and a run.
An 80 yard bomb to smith when he got behind the safety and a rushing td.

I always thought their handling of davis was Bullshit in that game.
He had gone off for 199 yards and 2 tds vs miami.
He went off for 167 and a td vs. the jets.

... his payback for that was not getting a single touch of the ball inside the 10 while Shanahan gave griffith 4 carries inside the 5, 2 at the 1 for two tds..(those 4 carries represented every rushing attempt in the playoffs for him) and even let Elway run one in.

Romanticize Elways swan song all you want, Davis was the engine of that team. In the 2 superbowl runs, He put up 1200 yards and 11 tds despite getting 3 sniped from him in the last superbowl to Elways 1400 and 6 tds.

 

[Rory Sparrow]

Culpepper is actually an interesting case study. Sure he had Randy Moss in his early years, but his best season was actually his 2nd last in Minny (2004). He still had Moss, but actually completed more passes to Burleson and Wiggins. His last year had a slow start, then the knee injury that changed everything.

He reminds me of a Josh Freeman. Not sure if you remember, but in his second year he posted a 95.9 QB rating, which was not common back in 2010. He had one more good year, but after that they were washed up before they really hit their prime.

Both guys were 6'5+ and 240 lbs+. Both guys were thought at one time to be the next wave of franchise QBs and it just didn't turn out.

I agree with all of this. Initially you thought that Culpepper was just throwing rainbows to Randy Moss, but there came a point when Moss sucked and you realized "Holy cow, Culpepper is doing this all on his own". Someone mentioned Moss's stats, but Culpepper got those stats for Moss, not the other way around.

Josh Freeman is a great comp. He still holds bizarre NFL records like most passing yards before turning 24, because he was so young coming out of college. And then after he turned 24, his NFL career basically ended.

 

[Rory Sparrow]

Still pisses me off that the Eagles couldn't do more with those Randall lead teams form 86-94. Buddy Ryan was so focused on defense that he'd let Cunningham get killed and when Rich Kotite took over, we'll they Kotite-d....

Maybe Buddy Ryan lacked the offensive intellect, but Randall was the ultimate bum slayer. He was always terrible in the postseason when facing defense that didn't let him do whatever he wanted. That's what always did those Eagles teams in at the end.

 

[Rory Sparrow]

with multiple Pro Bowl RB Winder

Sammy Winder, ack! Not very good. Pro Bowls are sometimes screwy, and the AFC RB situation was wonky. When Winder made the pro bowl in 1984, Earnest Jackson led the AFC in rushing, while Eric Dickerson led the NFC/NFL in rushing with 1000+ more yards than Jackson! 7 NFC RBs had more yards than Jackson. (Weird story, Jackson was cut by the Chargers after 1984, went to the Eagles and gained 1000 yards in 1985, was cut again, and went to the Steelers and gained 900 yards in 1986...the guy was like the Jeff Garcia of RBs).

Winder's 1986 Pro Bowl appearance is possibly the most inefficient pro bowl RB season ever....789 yards on 3.3 YPC would make even Jordan Howard blush! 171 receiving yards at 6.6 YPR is almost as bad.

In sum, Sammy Winder, not very good.

 

[Bearly]

The one thing I remember with Culpepper was how difficult it was to get him down, even when the pass rush was getting to him he was strong, elusive.... drove me nuts watching as a kid thinking "Y U NO GET HIM DOWN?!?!?"

Of course I was a kid, so it may have happened like twice in one game and stuck in my memory.

He was like that and had a big arm as well. Nice to be able to throw to Chris Carter and Randy Moss.

Sammy Winder, ack! Not very good. Pro Bowls are sometimes screwy, and the AFC RB situation was wonky. When Winder made the pro bowl in 1984, Earnest Jackson led the AFC in rushing, while Eric Dickerson led the NFC/NFL in rushing with 1000+ more yards than Jackson! 7 NFC RBs had more yards than Jackson. (Weird story, Jackson was cut by the Chargers after 1984, went to the Eagles and gained 1000 yards in 1985, was cut again, and went to the Steelers and gained 900 yards in 1986...the guy was like the Jeff Garcia of RBs).

Winder's 1986 Pro Bowl appearance is possibly the most inefficient pro bowl RB season ever....789 yards on 3.3 YPC would make even Jordan Howard blush! 171 receiving yards at 6.6 YPR is almost as bad.

In sum, Sammy Winder, not very good.

Wasn't hyping the probowl aspect as though he was a superstar but he got there twice and you don't do that as a shit running back regardless of circumstances.

 

[Rory Sparrow]

Wasn't hyping the probowl aspect as though he was a superstar but he got there twice and you don't do that as a shit running back regardless of circumstances.

Winder was a good plodder in 1984, but was beaten up by 1986 and really was a shit RB yet still made the pro bowl. 16 other RBs had more rushing yards. Winder's saving grace was 14 TDs (an amazing 5 receiving TDs...Winder had 4 more receiving TDs in 8 years).

Steve Watson was a great WR for the Broncos in the early-80's, but by 1986 he had lost a step. Kind of strange that Denver made the SB in 1986...they were much better in 1984.

 

[Bearly]

Was more of peer review back then without the heavy fan weighting. Clearly not special like Davis but far from shit. Very true about 84 vs 86, especially with how good the 84 D was.

 

[Rory Sparrow]

Was more of peer review back then without the heavy fan weighting. Clearly not special like Davis but far from shit. Very true about 84 vs 86, especially with how good the 84 D was.

Suffered from the Sports Illustrated cover curse, too

 

[Bearly]

At least there was no Madden.

 

[Rory Sparrow]

At least there was no Madden.

Ditka, tho

 

[Pegger]

Maybe Buddy Ryan lacked the offensive intellect, but Randall was the ultimate bum slayer. He was always terrible in the postseason when facing defense that didn't let him do whatever he wanted. That's what always did those Eagles teams in at the end.

I agree with you, but he always went into that fight short handed. Buddy would spend all the teams resources trying to kill the opposing team's offense while disregarding areas on his own. I always felt if he would have tried to team himself up with an offensive guru. Maybe here's another way to look at it. The 5 years Buddy was the HC of Philly he had the following defensive coordinators: Wade Phillips and Jeff Fisher. Both of those guys went on to have very good NFL coaching careers. He also had the following offensive coordinators: Ted Plumb, who's NFL stint was only the OC of Philly and Rich Kotite, whom still hurts to talk about...

If you don't know anything about Rick Kotite back in 1991 in a rainy game against the Cowboys they scored to go down by 11. The rain made it hard to read his chart and he misread it and they went for 2. They failed to convert, obviously lost the game and he blamed the bad coaching decision on the weather...

Anyway, part of me thinks Buddy Ryan honestly wanted to break offenses so badly that he even hated coaches that specialized in that area. He was just so focused on defense he didn't care about that side of the ball. Anyone remember this:

That was a 'mature' 59 year old Buddy as the DC of the Oilers and he just got mad at OC Kevin Gilbride. I've never seen one coach take a swing at another coach on live air. IMHO that was just how Buddy was. The only offensive players he liked were one's like the Fridge, who were defensive players that would come in to 'save' the offense, almost looking down on what they do. I could imagine him in a draft room meeting someone like a Richard Sherman, who was a WR that converted to CB. Buddy would say, "So you're a WR trying to play corner, right? Doesn't that make you one of them transsexuals?".

Philly loved Buddy because he acted like he was fueled by hatred, but Buddy was not a good HC. He micro managed the defensive side and really didn't care about anything else.

 

[Rory Sparrow]

Buddy would spend all the teams resources trying to kill the opposing team's offense while disregarding areas on his own

Disagree regarding the resources. Eagles were always drafting offensive players in the first couple rounds...they missed on a ton of RBs, which probably hurt the most. Keith Byars ended up being a weirdly productive H-back, Keith Jackson was a great TE. Hard to say about the WRs...some busts, Fred Barnett was OK...not sure if they would have been better with a better passing QB.

Agree about the OC stuff...Ryan not only was a defensive-minded coach, he was also terrible to work with on a staff by all accounts.