David Thorpe's Rook/Soph Rankings

[WearShades]

Just for fun...

I don't have an ESPN subscription but here's what I've gathered about the rankings:

1) Brook Lopez
2) Derrick Rose
...
6) Tyreke Evans

If anyone can fill in the many blanks please do. I'm moderately surprised Thorpe had Rose that high given that my impression was Thorpe didn't like Rose much (I think Rose was the last entry on the first sophomore rankings Thorpe put out earlier in the year).

How do we all feel about this?

 

[Shakes]

Hard to really argue about Lopez ahead of Rose, the only reason Lopez didn't make the all-star team is because his team mates are awful, hence the horrible record.

 

[TheStig]

I'll happily argue Lopez. Rose is a difference maker, guys guard him at half court at times. No one really cares what Lopez does and he plays on arguably the worst team in the league. He is a nice piece but doesn't make an impact on the game. Oh and David Thorpe is a tool, Evan should be #2 behind Rose.

 

[WearShades]

TheStig wrote:

I'll happily argue Lopez. Rose is a difference maker, guys guard him at half court at times. No one really cares what Lopez does and he plays on arguably the worst team in the league. He is a nice piece but doesn't make an impact on the game. Oh and David Thorpe is a tool, Evan should be #2 behind Rose.

I was half expecting Evans to be #1, or at least #2.

 

[Dpauley23]

WearShades wrote:

Just for fun...

I don't have an ESPN subscription but here's what I've gathered about the rankings:

1) Brook Lopez
2) Derrick Rose
...
6) Tyreke Evans

If anyone can fill in the many blanks please do. I'm moderately surprised Thorpe had Rose that high given that my impression was Thorpe didn't like Rose much (I think Rose was the last entry on the first sophomore rankings Thorpe put out earlier in the year).

How do we all feel about this?

Lopez is Brand esque where he gets his stats, but doesn't really help his team win games

 

[TheStig]

Dpauley23 wrote:

WearShades wrote:

Just for fun...

I don't have an ESPN subscription but here's what I've gathered about the rankings:

1) Brook Lopez
2) Derrick Rose
...
6) Tyreke Evans

If anyone can fill in the many blanks please do. I'm moderately surprised Thorpe had Rose that high given that my impression was Thorpe didn't like Rose much (I think Rose was the last entry on the first sophomore rankings Thorpe put out earlier in the year).

How do we all feel about this?

Lopez is Brand esque where he gets his stats, but doesn't really help his team win games

Exactly, if your a near 20 and 10 big man and your team can't get 30 wins, your not that great. Here's looking at you Zach Randolph and Elton Brand.

 

[Shakes]

I want to know how many games anyone can win with Courtney Lee as your second best player for half the year. By the logic that if you can't help your team win you must be putting up empty stats, we shouldn't go after Wade, after all he was on a team that went 10-41 in the games he played only a couple of years ago.

 

[Shakes]

I also find it funny that when Rose was struggling to score, it was because Gordon leaving made the defense focus on him. When Lopez manages to score on a team that has even less offensive fire power than the Bulls, it's because nobody cares and they're happy to just let Lopez score all he wants. Double standard much?

 

[TheStig]

Shakes wrote:

I want to know how many games anyone can win with Courtney Lee as your second best player for half the year. By the logic that if you can't help your team win you must be putting up empty stats, we shouldn't go after Wade, after all he was on a team that went 10-41 in the games he played only a couple of years ago.

Devin Harris was an allstar PG last year. Granted he has been injured a lot, there is no excuse for only winning 5 games. There is a happy medium. Everyone has a bad year so I exclude him, Wade also was fighting through a lot of injuries that year. Lopez is perfectly healthy.

 

[TheStig]

Shakes wrote:

I also find it funny that when Rose was struggling to score, it was because Gordon leaving made the defense focus on him. When Lopez manages to score on a team that has even less offensive fire power than the Bulls, it's because nobody cares and they're happy to just let Lopez score all he wants. Double standard much?

I find it funny that you conveniently leave out an ankle injury to a guy who relies on his speed and athleticism. Plus their offense isn't much worse, we are the 27th rated offense they are the 30th. Fairly similar production.

 

[Shakes]

The Nets are about as far below the Bulls as the Bulls are below the Celtics. When you say 27th and 30th ranked, it makes it look like they're close, but the Nets are by far the worst offense in the league.

Really though I'm not bothered by the Nets being bad, I don't get the point of blaming it on their only good player. I think there's ample evidence that the idea of good players on bad teams actually being bad players in disguise is a myth. If Lopez was putting up his 19 points on 40% shooting then sure, his points are garbage. But he's scoring efficiently, he's rebounding, he's blocking shots. He's a 21 year old center whose worst case people can come up with is Elton Brand. The young point guard better be Magic Johnson if you want me to take him over that.

 

[postdiction]

Sometimes I think you guys argue just for the sake of arguing.

 

[TheStig]

Shakes wrote:

The Nets are about as far below the Bulls as the Bulls are below the Celtics. When you say 27th and 30th ranked, it makes it look like they're close, but the Nets are by far the worst offense in the league.

Really though I'm not bothered by the Nets being bad, I don't get the point of blaming it on their only good player. I think there's ample evidence that the idea of good players on bad teams actually being bad players in disguise is a myth. If Lopez was putting up his 19 points on 40% shooting then sure, his points are garbage. But he's scoring efficiently, he's rebounding, he's blocking shots. He's a 21 year old center whose worst case people can come up with is Elton Brand. The young point guard better be Magic Johnson if you want me to take him over that.

I'm not blaming it on him. I am just saying he isn't a high impact player. A true 20/10 center should be able to anchor a defense and offense if he is as good as you make him out to be, especially if you take him over a roy and allstar pg.

 

[Shakes]

postdiction wrote:

Sometimes I think you guys argue just for the sake of arguing.

I have to do something while at work.

Stig, I'm just saying I don't judge players by how good their GM is, which is what I think you do when you compare team records. The league is full of guys who were losers and became winners (or vice versa) when their situation changed. Give Derrick Rose the hobbled version of Noah, Pargo, Devin Brown, and James Johnson for a lineup (not too far of what Lopez has had, I mean Hassell started 20 games for them!) and he'd struggle to win too.

 

[WearShades]

Here's a more complete version of the list:

1. Brook Lopez
2. Derrick Rose
3. Marc Gasol
...
6. Tyreke Evans
...
20. Ryan Anderson

 

[RPK]

Thorpe must be smoking crack to rate Lopez over Rose.

Rose is already one of the best scoring (clutch scoring especially), shot blocking, and rebounding point guards in the NBA.

Physically, he dominates the smaller pgs in the league and sky is only the limit as to his potential.

He's taken a mediocre Bulls team and led them to an over .500 mark despite losing their top scorer last season. Even now without Noah, Rose is leading this team to wins.

Thorpe is seriously overrating Lopez's mediocre scoring and rebounding stats based on position.

There isn't a GM in the league that would rate Lopez over Rose, and if you were to do that draft over giving the Nets the #1 pick, they take Rose.

 

[WearShades]

RPK wrote:

Thorpe must be smoking crack to rate Lopez over Rose.

Rose is already one of the best scoring (clutch scoring especially), shot blocking, and rebounding point guards in the NBA.

Physically, he dominates the smaller pgs in the league and sky is only the limit as to his potential.

He's taken a mediocre Bulls team and led them to an over .500 mark despite losing their top scorer last season. Even now without Noah, Rose is leading this team to wins.

Thorpe is seriously overrating Lopez's mediocre scoring and rebounding stats based on position.

There isn't a GM in the league that would rate Lopez over Rose, and if you were to do that draft over giving the Nets the #1 pick, they take Rose.

I too would take Rose over Lopez, but I'm not sure about your reasons. Rose has only one game winner, so while he's a good scorer I don't know that you can say he's especially clutch. He has 15 blocks on the year, which isn't noteworthy. And the most glaring point you made; he isn't nearly as good of a rebounder as he should be. Of late, he's been getting more boards but he's still under four. Rajon Rondo, for example, averages about 4 and a 1/2 rebounds per game, and he's considerably smaller than Rose.

 

[WearShades]

RPK wrote:

There isn't a GM in the league that would rate Lopez over Rose, and if you were to do that draft over giving the Nets the #1 pick, they take Rose.

Forgot to hit on this point. You're right, Rose still goes number one. However, you'd have to think Lopez goes top 3, and probably would have been the pick after Rose. I hardly see Miami picking Beasley again.

A good hypothetical question: If you were redoing the 2008 draft today, is Michael Beasley even a top 10 pick? Right now I'd still have to say yes, but barely. I was able to come up with 9 2008 draft picks I'd rather have than Beasley (no particular order):

1. Derrick Rose
2. Brook Lopez
3. Russell Westbrook
4. O.J. Mayo
5. Kevin Love
6. Anthony Randolph
7. Eric Gordon
8. Nicolas Batum
9. Jerryd Bayless

 

[TheStig]

WearShades wrote:

RPK wrote:

There isn't a GM in the league that would rate Lopez over Rose, and if you were to do that draft over giving the Nets the #1 pick, they take Rose.

Forgot to hit on this point. You're right, Rose still goes number one. However, you'd have to think Lopez goes top 3, and probably would have been the pick after Rose. I hardly see Miami picking Beasley again.

A good hypothetical question: If you were redoing the 2008 draft today, is Michael Beasley even a top 10 pick? Right now I'd still have to say yes, but barely. I was able to come up with 9 2008 draft picks I'd rather have than Beasley (no particular order):

1. Derrick Rose
2. Brook Lopez
3. Russell Westbrook
4. O.J. Mayo
5. Kevin Love
6. Anthony Randolph
7. Eric Gordon
8. Nicolas Batum
9. Jerryd Bayless

How does Evans not make the list?

 

[houheffna]

Evans wasn't drafted in 2008...

I wouldn't take Batum over Beasley...