David Thorpe's Rook/Soph Rankings

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

Evans wasn't drafted in 2008...

I wouldn't take Batum over Beasley...

oh my bad, i thought we were still talking rookie/soph. I'd also take gordon over randolph at this point. MB too.

 

[pinkizdead]

5-51. v 29-24. believe it or not rose was responsible for al of those wins.

really is hinrich significantly better than lee? harris was last years all star. yeup lopez is soooooooooo much better than rose.

rught now i'd draft

1. rose
2. lopez
3. ?mayo
4. westbrook?
5. love
6. gasol

 

[WearShades]

houheffna wrote:

Evans wasn't drafted in 2008...

I wouldn't take Batum over Beasley...

I wasn't sure about that one either, but I feel the only thing holding back Batum is playing time. He's a crazily efficient scorer, and he is a good defender. I'll admit I haven't seen too much of Beasley this year, and maybe my reason for not rating him higher is how much more was expected out of him, but I don't see nearly the kind of impact out of him that Batum provides.

 

[WearShades]

pinkizdead wrote:

5-51. v 29-24. believe it or not rose was responsible for al of those wins.

really is hinrich significantly better than lee? harris was last years all star. yeup lopez is soooooooooo much better than rose.

rught now i'd draft

1. rose
2. lopez
3. ?mayo
4. westbrook?
5. love
6. gasol

While Gasol's rookie year was 2008, he was drafted in 2007.

 

[Dpauley23]

WearShades wrote:

RPK wrote:

There isn't a GM in the league that would rate Lopez over Rose, and if you were to do that draft over giving the Nets the #1 pick, they take Rose.

Forgot to hit on this point. You're right, Rose still goes number one. However, you'd have to think Lopez goes top 3, and probably would have been the pick after Rose. I hardly see Miami picking Beasley again.

A good hypothetical question: If you were redoing the 2008 draft today, is Michael Beasley even a top 10 pick? Right now I'd still have to say yes, but barely. I was able to come up with 9 2008 draft picks I'd rather have than Beasley (no particular order):

1. Derrick Rose
2. Brook Lopez
3. Russell Westbrook
4. O.J. Mayo
5. Kevin Love
6. Anthony Randolph
7. Eric Gordon
8. Nicolas Batum
9. Jerryd Bayless

If any gm picks Westbrook over Mayo they should be fired

 

[WearShades]

Dpauley23 wrote:

WearShades wrote:

RPK wrote:

There isn't a GM in the league that would rate Lopez over Rose, and if you were to do that draft over giving the Nets the #1 pick, they take Rose.

Forgot to hit on this point. You're right, Rose still goes number one. However, you'd have to think Lopez goes top 3, and probably would have been the pick after Rose. I hardly see Miami picking Beasley again.

A good hypothetical question: If you were redoing the 2008 draft today, is Michael Beasley even a top 10 pick? Right now I'd still have to say yes, but barely. I was able to come up with 9 2008 draft picks I'd rather have than Beasley (no particular order):

1. Derrick Rose
2. Brook Lopez
3. Russell Westbrook
4. O.J. Mayo
5. Kevin Love
6. Anthony Randolph
7. Eric Gordon
8. Nicolas Batum
9. Jerryd Bayless

If any gm picks Westbrook over Mayo they should be fired

Why do you say that? Westbrook is averaging nearly 8 assists a game, over 5 rebounds and 16.4 points a game. He trumps Mayo. Sure, playing next to Durant helps, but Mayo plays with a lot of talent guys as well. Westbrook has been exceptional.

 

[pinkizdead]

mayo isn't asked to score that much. Mayo is really really good at scoring. if he didnt hog the ball so often, i'd jump at the chance to get mayo.

 

[Dpauley23]

WearShades wrote:

Dpauley23 wrote:

WearShades wrote:

RPK wrote:

There isn't a GM in the league that would rate Lopez over Rose, and if you were to do that draft over giving the Nets the #1 pick, they take Rose.

Forgot to hit on this point. You're right, Rose still goes number one. However, you'd have to think Lopez goes top 3, and probably would have been the pick after Rose. I hardly see Miami picking Beasley again.

A good hypothetical question: If you were redoing the 2008 draft today, is Michael Beasley even a top 10 pick? Right now I'd still have to say yes, but barely. I was able to come up with 9 2008 draft picks I'd rather have than Beasley (no particular order):

1. Derrick Rose
2. Brook Lopez
3. Russell Westbrook
4. O.J. Mayo
5. Kevin Love
6. Anthony Randolph
7. Eric Gordon
8. Nicolas Batum
9. Jerryd Bayless

If any gm picks Westbrook over Mayo they should be fired

Why do you say that? Westbrook is averaging nearly 8 assists a game, over 5 rebounds and 16.4 points a game. He trumps Mayo. Sure, playing next to Durant helps, but Mayo plays with a lot of talent guys as well. Westbrook has been exceptional.

Well I prefer guys who can actual score efficently. If your thing is guys who can't score efficently then Westbroo's your man

 

[Shakes]

RPK wrote:

Thorpe is seriously overrating Lopez's mediocre scoring and rebounding stats based on position.

Rose scores less than a point more than Lopez' "mediocre" scoring. He also does so far less efficiently. And yes, position matters: the average center in the NBA is garbage, so having a guy who is actually productive is a bigger deal than having a productive guard, a position where the average guy is actually pretty good.

There isn't a GM in the league that would rate Lopez over Rose, and if you were to do that draft over giving the Nets the #1 pick, they take Rose.

That's based on a projection of future production. Right now Lopez is outplaying Rose.

 

[WearShades]

Dpauley23 wrote:

WearShades wrote:

Dpauley23 wrote:

WearShades wrote:

RPK wrote:

There isn't a GM in the league that would rate Lopez over Rose, and if you were to do that draft over giving the Nets the #1 pick, they take Rose.

Forgot to hit on this point. You're right, Rose still goes number one. However, you'd have to think Lopez goes top 3, and probably would have been the pick after Rose. I hardly see Miami picking Beasley again.

A good hypothetical question: If you were redoing the 2008 draft today, is Michael Beasley even a top 10 pick? Right now I'd still have to say yes, but barely. I was able to come up with 9 2008 draft picks I'd rather have than Beasley (no particular order):

1. Derrick Rose
2. Brook Lopez
3. Russell Westbrook
4. O.J. Mayo
5. Kevin Love
6. Anthony Randolph
7. Eric Gordon
8. Nicolas Batum
9. Jerryd Bayless

If any gm picks Westbrook over Mayo they should be fired

Why do you say that? Westbrook is averaging nearly 8 assists a game, over 5 rebounds and 16.4 points a game. He trumps Mayo. Sure, playing next to Durant helps, but Mayo plays with a lot of talent guys as well. Westbrook has been exceptional.

Well I prefer guys who can actual score efficently. If your thing is guys who can't score efficently then Westbroo's your man

If the only difference was scoring efficiency then you'd have a point. However, you've ignored just about everything else and thus you're completely wrong. Mayo is an efficient scorer, but very little else. Westbrook provides 4.6 more assists per game. 4.6! And he gets you over a rebound more than Mayo even though he's smaller. He's a better ballhandler with a 2.4 greater PER than Mayo.

 

[Diddy1122]

Shakes wrote:

RPK wrote:

Thorpe is seriously overrating Lopez's mediocre scoring and rebounding stats based on position.

Rose scores less than a point more than Lopez' "mediocre" scoring. He also does so far less efficiently. And yes, position matters: the average center in the NBA is garbage, so having a guy who is actually productive is a bigger deal than having a productive guard, a position where the average guy is actually pretty good.

There isn't a GM in the league that would rate Lopez over Rose, and if you were to do that draft over giving the Nets the #1 pick, they take Rose.

That's based on a projection of future production. Right now Lopez is outplaying Rose.

In the past 2 months, Rose has completely outplayed Lopez. No denying that. Rose was injured at the beginning of the year. Lopez has played healthy all season. And as much as one can dwell on the stats, the fact remains Rose is the best player on his team, is making an impact in every game, & winning several singel-handedly. It's not like the Nets have been blown out every game. They've been in alot of those losses, even had the lead in the 4th in a bunch of them, but they fell apart down the stretch. There's something to be said about that. And the Bulls had their fair share of injuries early on just like the Nets, granted their overall talent level is definitely better than the Nets, but it's not like we weren't missing important players either.

However, I will say this. Based on production from last year to this year, Lopez has earned his status as a front-runner for Most Improved Player, solely based on statistics, which is usually the measuring stick in that cateogry. I'd personally give it to Marc Gasol who showed improvement in mutiple cateroies as opposed to just scoring. But Rose is definitely the better player than Lopez, right now & in the future. I don't even see it as that debatable.

 

[TheStig]

Dpauley23 wrote:

WearShades wrote:

Dpauley23 wrote:

WearShades wrote:

RPK wrote:

There isn't a GM in the league that would rate Lopez over Rose, and if you were to do that draft over giving the Nets the #1 pick, they take Rose.

Forgot to hit on this point. You're right, Rose still goes number one. However, you'd have to think Lopez goes top 3, and probably would have been the pick after Rose. I hardly see Miami picking Beasley again.

A good hypothetical question: If you were redoing the 2008 draft today, is Michael Beasley even a top 10 pick? Right now I'd still have to say yes, but barely. I was able to come up with 9 2008 draft picks I'd rather have than Beasley (no particular order):

1. Derrick Rose
2. Brook Lopez
3. Russell Westbrook
4. O.J. Mayo
5. Kevin Love
6. Anthony Randolph
7. Eric Gordon
8. Nicolas Batum
9. Jerryd Bayless

If any gm picks Westbrook over Mayo they should be fired

Why do you say that? Westbrook is averaging nearly 8 assists a game, over 5 rebounds and 16.4 points a game. He trumps Mayo. Sure, playing next to Durant helps, but Mayo plays with a lot of talent guys as well. Westbrook has been exceptional.

Well I prefer guys who can actual score efficently. If your thing is guys who can't score efficently then Westbroo's your man

Westbrook beats him in every other statistical category and is a better defender. I'd take Westbrook, he is a much more complete player. Mayo has also been a bit of a disappointment, he was supposed to be much better.

 

[houheffna]

Mayo is inconsistent. He is a pretty good shooting guard, don't see perennial all star though...

 

[Diddy1122]

I wouldn't call Mayo a disappointment. I don't buy into the hype with most the players that come into this league. Actually I think he's adapted his game rather well. He came into this league with everyone labeling him as a "selfish" player & a ball hog, plus there was the whole NCAA violations thing with Floyd's recruiting over his head. He's been willingly deferring to his teammates, is 2nd on the team in assists, & has been doing well in his role as the spot up shooter, hitting 48% on his 2's, & 39% on his 3's. I definitely see all-star potential for him but I have been most impressed with his approach to the game & his willingness to play team basketball.

 

[Dpauley23]

TheStig wrote:

Dpauley23 wrote:

WearShades wrote:

Dpauley23 wrote:

WearShades wrote:

RPK wrote:

There isn't a GM in the league that would rate Lopez over Rose, and if you were to do that draft over giving the Nets the #1 pick, they take Rose.

Forgot to hit on this point. You're right, Rose still goes number one. However, you'd have to think Lopez goes top 3, and probably would have been the pick after Rose. I hardly see Miami picking Beasley again.

A good hypothetical question: If you were redoing the 2008 draft today, is Michael Beasley even a top 10 pick? Right now I'd still have to say yes, but barely. I was able to come up with 9 2008 draft picks I'd rather have than Beasley (no particular order):

1. Derrick Rose
2. Brook Lopez
3. Russell Westbrook
4. O.J. Mayo
5. Kevin Love
6. Anthony Randolph
7. Eric Gordon
8. Nicolas Batum
9. Jerryd Bayless

If any gm picks Westbrook over Mayo they should be fired

Why do you say that? Westbrook is averaging nearly 8 assists a game, over 5 rebounds and 16.4 points a game. He trumps Mayo. Sure, playing next to Durant helps, but Mayo plays with a lot of talent guys as well. Westbrook has been exceptional.

Well I prefer guys who can actual score efficently. If your thing is guys who can't score efficently then Westbroo's your man

Westbrook beats him in every other statistical category and is a better defender. I'd take Westbrook, he is a much more complete player. Mayo has also been a bit of a disappointment, he was supposed to be much better.

Your insane if you rather have Westbrook than Mayo just because he's better defender. He's going to kill that team in the playoff swith his .487 TS%

 

[WearShades]

Dpauley23 wrote:

TheStig wrote:

Dpauley23 wrote:

WearShades wrote:

Dpauley23 wrote:

WearShades wrote:

RPK wrote:

There isn't a GM in the league that would rate Lopez over Rose, and if you were to do that draft over giving the Nets the #1 pick, they take Rose.

Forgot to hit on this point. You're right, Rose still goes number one. However, you'd have to think Lopez goes top 3, and probably would have been the pick after Rose. I hardly see Miami picking Beasley again.

A good hypothetical question: If you were redoing the 2008 draft today, is Michael Beasley even a top 10 pick? Right now I'd still have to say yes, but barely. I was able to come up with 9 2008 draft picks I'd rather have than Beasley (no particular order):

1. Derrick Rose
2. Brook Lopez
3. Russell Westbrook
4. O.J. Mayo
5. Kevin Love
6. Anthony Randolph
7. Eric Gordon
8. Nicolas Batum
9. Jerryd Bayless

If any gm picks Westbrook over Mayo they should be fired

Why do you say that? Westbrook is averaging nearly 8 assists a game, over 5 rebounds and 16.4 points a game. He trumps Mayo. Sure, playing next to Durant helps, but Mayo plays with a lot of talent guys as well. Westbrook has been exceptional.

Well I prefer guys who can actual score efficently. If your thing is guys who can't score efficently then Westbroo's your man

Westbrook beats him in every other statistical category and is a better defender. I'd take Westbrook, he is a much more complete player. Mayo has also been a bit of a disappointment, he was supposed to be much better.

Your insane if you rather have Westbrook than Mayo just because he's better defender. He's going to kill that team in the playoff swith his .487 TS%

It's not just because he's a better defender. He's better than Mayo in every category outside of scoring. Westbrook also could become a more efficient shooter as he's already getting to the line a fair amount (more than Mayo in fact).

 

[RPK]

Shakes wrote:

Rose scores less than a point more than Lopez' "mediocre" scoring. He also does so far less efficiently.

First off, Rose started the year injured which hurt his numbers. I'd love to see the updated numbers since Rose came healthy. Everything the Bulls run on offense goes through Rose, and when the shot clock is winding down and the Bulls need someone to put up a shot, its usually Rose who has to bail the team out, so I expect his efficiency numbers not to be that great. Take Rose out of the offense, and the team looks like shit. That just goes to further prove that Rose is doing a great job of running the offense. That should also show that point guard is just as valuable as center.

And yes, position matters: the average center in the NBA is garbage, so having a guy who is actually productive is a bigger deal than having a productive guard, a position where the average guy is actually pretty good.

I'm sure that's what the Blazers said when they chose Sam Bowie over Michael Jordan.
Number 1 rule when drafting players is you take the best player regardless of position. Rose is a transcendent athlete with an insane work ethic. being one of the best PG's already in a stacked league is an impressive feat. No one has ever said that Lopez is a great athlete.

There isn't a GM in the league that would rate Lopez over Rose, and if you were to do that draft over giving the Nets the #1 pick, they take Rose.

That's based on a projection of future production. Right now Lopez is outplaying Rose.

Explain to me just how Lopez is outplaying Rose? Rose has been on fire since being fully healthy. Rose wasn't even in the discussion for all star early in the year but dominated his way to an all star birth. Right now, it's Rose that is outplaying Lopez. If all you have to base that fact is on usage% or slight scoring difference measured since the beginning of the year then I'm afraid your advanced stats are like a book missing chapters. They're not telling the whole story.

 

[Bullsman24]

since december 19, rose is averaging 22.5 ppg and 5.9 apg compared to lopez' 18.7 ppg and 8.3 rpg. but if you think about it, lopez is the main rebounder on his team while derrick has hinrich to share the assists with as well.

 

[TheStig]

Dpauley23 wrote:

TheStig wrote:

Dpauley23 wrote:

WearShades wrote:

Dpauley23 wrote:

WearShades wrote:

RPK wrote:

There isn't a GM in the league that would rate Lopez over Rose, and if you were to do that draft over giving the Nets the #1 pick, they take Rose.

Forgot to hit on this point. You're right, Rose still goes number one. However, you'd have to think Lopez goes top 3, and probably would have been the pick after Rose. I hardly see Miami picking Beasley again.

A good hypothetical question: If you were redoing the 2008 draft today, is Michael Beasley even a top 10 pick? Right now I'd still have to say yes, but barely. I was able to come up with 9 2008 draft picks I'd rather have than Beasley (no particular order):

1. Derrick Rose
2. Brook Lopez
3. Russell Westbrook
4. O.J. Mayo
5. Kevin Love
6. Anthony Randolph
7. Eric Gordon
8. Nicolas Batum
9. Jerryd Bayless

If any gm picks Westbrook over Mayo they should be fired

Why do you say that? Westbrook is averaging nearly 8 assists a game, over 5 rebounds and 16.4 points a game. He trumps Mayo. Sure, playing next to Durant helps, but Mayo plays with a lot of talent guys as well. Westbrook has been exceptional.

Well I prefer guys who can actual score efficently. If your thing is guys who can't score efficently then Westbroo's your man

Westbrook beats him in every other statistical category and is a better defender. I'd take Westbrook, he is a much more complete player. Mayo has also been a bit of a disappointment, he was supposed to be much better.

Your insane if you rather have Westbrook than Mayo just because he's better defender. He's going to kill that team in the playoff swith his .487 TS%

Sure, defense is the start but there is also rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, per.

 

[WearShades]

TheStig wrote:

Dpauley23 wrote:

TheStig wrote:

Dpauley23 wrote:

WearShades wrote:

Dpauley23 wrote:

WearShades wrote:

RPK wrote:

There isn't a GM in the league that would rate Lopez over Rose, and if you were to do that draft over giving the Nets the #1 pick, they take Rose.

Forgot to hit on this point. You're right, Rose still goes number one. However, you'd have to think Lopez goes top 3, and probably would have been the pick after Rose. I hardly see Miami picking Beasley again.

A good hypothetical question: If you were redoing the 2008 draft today, is Michael Beasley even a top 10 pick? Right now I'd still have to say yes, but barely. I was able to come up with 9 2008 draft picks I'd rather have than Beasley (no particular order):

1. Derrick Rose
2. Brook Lopez
3. Russell Westbrook
4. O.J. Mayo
5. Kevin Love
6. Anthony Randolph
7. Eric Gordon
8. Nicolas Batum
9. Jerryd Bayless

If any gm picks Westbrook over Mayo they should be fired

Why do you say that? Westbrook is averaging nearly 8 assists a game, over 5 rebounds and 16.4 points a game. He trumps Mayo. Sure, playing next to Durant helps, but Mayo plays with a lot of talent guys as well. Westbrook has been exceptional.

Well I prefer guys who can actual score efficently. If your thing is guys who can't score efficently then Westbroo's your man

Westbrook beats him in every other statistical category and is a better defender. I'd take Westbrook, he is a much more complete player. Mayo has also been a bit of a disappointment, he was supposed to be much better.

Your insane if you rather have Westbrook than Mayo just because he's better defender. He's going to kill that team in the playoff swith his .487 TS%

Sure, defense is the start but there is also rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, per.

Exactly. It's not even that close. Westbrook is the better player, and probably has just as high a ceiling.