ESPN 500: Bulls 2014

[clonetrooper264]

If Artis Gilmore isn't the best center in Bulls history, I don't know what universe you live in. Noah's a good player, but Gilmore is leagues ahead of him offensively and played defense just as well. Only edge Jo has is in passing probably. And yelling.

 

[FirstTimer]

He's the all time NBA Leader in FG pct.

He's actually 3rd all time(Counting his ABA numbers)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/fg_pct_career.html

 

[The Hawk]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gilmoar01.html

Noah could only dream of putting up those numbers.

Okay, I'll concede that Gilmore was a better center. But it is pretty close. Noah's rebounding was virtually the same as Gilmore's. He is absolutely as good or better than Gilmore as a defender. I say that because Noah can guard a helluva lot more positions than Gilmore, including SFs and SGs when asked to. Gilmore was a better scorer but when you add assists to the math, Noah accounted for just about as many points.

Artis is a HOFer but there is also a possibility that Noah will be a HOFer after he hangs up his shoes.

 

[The Hawk]

Not to mention he played in all 82 games all but one season.

The assists per game is not true. He averaged about 2.5 assists per game so Noah had the better of it in this category. I am not degrading Gilmore, merely defending how good Noah is. I, frankly am surprised how some of you Bulls fans downgrade Noah's performance. He is the leader of this team and without him, they do not sniff the play-offs during Rose's absence.

 

[The Hawk]

If Artis Gilmore isn't the best center in Bulls history, I don't know what universe you live in. Noah's a good player, but Gilmore is leagues ahead of him offensively and played defense just as well. Only edge Jo has is in passing probably. And yelling.

I get it. You take care to denigrate Noah. Why, I haven't a clue. Maybe you prefer giant Afros to guys with pony tails. You really should actually look at the two player's stats. The only significant stat that Gilmore has over Noah is scoring and when you add Noah's dominant assist total, even that stat gets reduced. Noah is equal to Gilmore's stats in rebounding, Noah is a better defender than Gilmore was. Noah is by far the better passer and ball handler.

I'll give you Gilmore as a better player than Noah but it certainly is much closer than the "leagues better than him" opinion that you give.

 

[FirstTimer]

Okay, I'll concede that Gilmore was a better center. But it is pretty close. Noah's rebounding was virtually the same as Gilmore's. He is absolutely as good or better than Gilmore as a defender

You've obviously never seen Gilmore play. Gilmore is vastly superior to Noah as a player.

I say that because Noah can guard a helluva lot more positions than Gilmore, including SFs and SGs when asked to. Gilmore was a better scorer but when you add assists to the math, Noah accounted for just about as many points.

A ridiculously dumb way to look at things. You are ignoring the way game were played in that era. Gilmore in his prime(from Ages 22-35) was a 20PPG 13.5 RPG, 2.7 BPG, 2.5 APG, and .6 StPG player. Joakim Noah right now is a career 9.9 PPG, 9.4 RPG, 1.5 BPG, 2.7 APG, and .9 StPG player. Gilmore on the whole scored more point, had the same amount of APG, blocked more shots, and rebounded more for a 14 season period than Noah has to this point.

Are you high?

Artis is a HOFer but there is also a possibility that Noah will be a HOFer after he hangs up his shoes.

Joakim Noah will not be HOFer

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Gilmore was an athletic center with skill. Definitely better than Noah.

 

[The Hawk]

You've obviously never seen Gilmore play. Gilmore is vastly superior to Noah as a player.


For openers you are wrong right off of the bat. I saw Gilmore play, even in the ABA. Nice FRO he had. And Gilmore is not "vastly superior" as a player when both were/are on the Bulls.

A ridiculously dumb way to look at things.

Fuck off, a-hole. All you can do is to insult.

You are ignoring the way game were played in that era.

Where? How? Another baseless claim. I know a lot about how the game was played in that era. Very aware how it was played. Allie McGuire called centers aircraft carriers and these centers were the most valuable and dominant players on virtually every team back then. So don't give me any shit about not knowing how the game was played.


Gilmore in his prime(from Ages 22-35) was a 20PPG 13.5 RPG, 2.7 BPG, 2.5 APG, and .6 StPG player. Joakim Noah right now is a career 9.9 PPG, 9.4 RPG, 1.5 BPG, 2.7 APG, and .9 StPG player. Gilmore on the whole scored more point, had the same amount of APG, blocked more shots, and rebounded more for a 14 season period than Noah has to this point.

That wasn't the question at hand. The question at hand was who the best Bull's center of all time was. Gilmore had six years with the Bulls and a comparison of his numbers versus Noah are not so very far apart as you have stated. What I said was true. Noah has pretty much the same rebounding numbers, twice as many assists(5-2.5), and was better than Gilmore on defense because of his mobility and skill set. Gilmore had a better field goal percentage than Noah and scored more points per game so offensively he was better but when you add in the disparity of assists, the gap does close.

Are you high?


What a stupid fucking question. People who ask such questions are idiots. Pot meet kettle.




Joakim Noah will not be HOFer

Maybe, maybe not. It doesn't matter. He is the leader of this team, the NBA Defensive Player of the Year, and First Team All Defense, and First Team NBA. That's a damn fine record despite your ignorant dismissal of his abilities.

 

[FirstTimer]

Maybe, maybe not. It doesn't matter. He is the leader of this team, the NBA Defensive Player of the Year, and First Team All Defense, and First Team NBA. That's a damn fine record despite your ignorant dismissal of his abilities.

Your quoting skills are awful. Your constant claims that you saw Gilmore play is shown to be a complete lie by the fact that you at first didn't even know he was the best center in Bulls history. Your defense of having seen him play is that you knew he had an afro. LOL.





Here are Noah's career stats with the Bulls
9.9 PPG (on 49.8% shooting)
9.4 RPG
1.5 BPG
2.7 APG (+.1 APG)
.9 StPG (+.3 StPG)

PER: 18.2

Here are Gilmore's(in his prime 6 season stretch with the Bulls)

20.1 PPG (on 58.7% shooting) (+10.2 PPG and +8.9%)
11.5 RPG (+2.1 RPG)
2.2 BPG (+.7 BPG)
2.6 APG
.6 StPG

PER: 22.1 (+3.9)

I've bolded the numbers where Gilmore was better and by how much. Same for Noah.


How you can continue to say this is even "close" is absurd to me. Most of what you say about Noah and Gilmore statistically isn't even true. Gilmore and Noah's scoring isn't close. Gilmore scored over twice as many points a game. He grabbed more rebounds. The assists are basically even. Gilmore blocked more shots and both guys barely stole the ball. There isn't a "disparity" in assists because you keep using Noah's single season assist total and not looking at his career average. You have zero clue as to what you are talking about.

 

[Scoot26]

Are we still arguing Gilmore vs Noah?

 

[FirstTimer]

Are we still arguing Gilmore vs Noah?

Apparently.

 

[Scoot26]

:bbud:

 

[FirstTimer]

:bbud:

Disagree.

 

[The Hawk]

Your quoting skills are awful. Your constant claims that you saw Gilmore play is shown to be a complete lie by the fact that you at first didn't even know he was the best center in Bulls history. Your defense of having seen him play is that you knew he had an afro. LOL.





Here are Noah's career stats with the Bulls
9.9 PPG (on 49.8% shooting)
9.4 RPG
1.5 BPG
2.7 APG (+.1 APG)
.9 StPG (+.3 StPG)

PER: 18.2

Here are Gilmore's(in his prime 6 season stretch with the Bulls)

20.1 PPG (on 58.7% shooting) (+10.2 PPG and +8.9%)
11.5 RPG (+2.1 RPG)
2.2 BPG (+.7 BPG)
2.6 APG
.6 StPG

PER: 22.1 (+3.9)

I've bolded the numbers where Gilmore was better and by how much. Same for Noah.


Gilmore, numbnuts , was a veteran player when he joined the Bulls. Noah was a draft pick and really didn't become a starter until his 3rd year. Gilmore was in his prime when he joined the Bulls. Noah progressed from a rookie to now a veteran. I am sure that you never watched Gilmore play because people who are as much an insulting SOB like you are put your nose in a record book and know not a damn thing else. Gilmore was an aircraft carrier like McGwire stated. He was a very good center in a era of great centers. But, once again, when you take a look at a corresponding career stats while a Bull which was the original premise, Noah's stats compare very closely.

So, a-hole. Keep bum rapping Noah continuously like you do, bum rap the NBA Defensive Player of the Year, 1st team Defense. 1st Team All Pro, Two time all-star. All NBA first team. The fucking issue, bottom line, which all except piddling people like you is that Noah is in his generation, is as much as a force as Gilmore was in his and his career is far from over.

 

[FirstTimer]

Gilmore, numbnuts , was a veteran player when he joined the Bulls.

Ok. Let's take a look at Gilmore's first 8 seasons in the ABA-NBA.

22.1 PPG (on 55.6% shooting)
15.5 RPG
3.0 BPG
3.0 APG
.6 StPG

PER: 23.2

So he was still better across the board from the moment he stepped onto an ABA-NBA floor. Was better in his prime(where Noah is now) and will continue to be better in historical perspective.

Noah was a draft pick and really didn't become a starter until his 3rd year.

First off, Noah was the Bulls primary starting C in his second season. Secondly, why does Noah get a pass for not being able to start right away?

I am sure that you never watched Gilmore play

As usual for everything you say, you're wrong.

Noah's stats compare very closely.

No. They. Don't.

Let's try this again

Here are Noah's career stats with the Bulls
9.9 PPG (on 49.8% shooting)
9.4 RPG
1.5 BPG
2.7 APG (+.1 APG)
.9 StPG (+.3 StPG)

PER: 18.2

Here are Gilmore's(in his prime 6 season stretch with the Bulls)

20.1 PPG (on 58.7% shooting) (+10.2 PPG and +8.9%)
11.5 RPG (+2.1 RPG)
2.2 BPG (+.7 BPG)
2.6 APG
.6 StPG

PER: 22.1 (+3.9)

1st Team All Pro

Now you're giving Noah credit for winning NFL awards?

Two time all-star.

By the time Gilmore was Noah's age(in an era of better centers according to you so the competition for awards was tougher) he was a 7 time All Star, 5x All-ABA, All ABA Rookie 1st team, 4x All ABA defensive first team, 1x All ABA defensive second team. He had also won ABA ROY and an ABA MVP.

So....yeah...Gilmore was really really good. Much better than Noah. Like, not even close.

The fucking issue, bottom line, which all except piddling people like you is that Noah is in his generation, is as much as a force as Gilmore was in his and his career is far from over

Great. So Noah has a ton more seasons to get out performed by Gilmore. Can't wait to watch it.

 

[The Hawk]

Ok. Let's take a look at Gilmore's first 8 seasons in the ABA-NBA.

22.1 PPG (on 55.6% shooting)
15.5 RPG
3.0 BPG
3.0 APG
.6 StPG

PER: 23.2

So he was still better across the board from the moment he stepped onto an ABA-NBA floor. Was better in his prime(where Noah is now) and will continue to be better in historical perspective.


First off, Noah was the Bulls primary starting C in his second season. Secondly, why does Noah get a pass for not being able to start right away?



As usual for everything you say, you're wrong.


No. They. Don't.

Let's try this again

Here are Noah's career stats with the Bulls
9.9 PPG (on 49.8% shooting)
9.4 RPG
1.5 BPG
2.7 APG (+.1 APG)
.9 StPG (+.3 StPG)

PER: 18.2

Here are Gilmore's(in his prime 6 season stretch with the Bulls)

20.1 PPG (on 58.7% shooting) (+10.2 PPG and +8.9%)
11.5 RPG (+2.1 RPG)
2.2 BPG (+.7 BPG)
2.6 APG
.6 StPG

PER: 22.1 (+3.9)


Now you're giving Noah credit for winning NFL awards?


By the time Gilmore was Noah's age(in an era of better centers according to you so the competition for awards was tougher) he was a 7 time All Star, 5x All-ABA, All ABA Rookie 1st team, 4x All ABA defensive first team, 1x All ABA defensive second team. He had also won ABA ROY and an ABA MVP.

So....yeah...Gilmore was really really good. Much better than Noah. Like, not even close.


Great. So Noah has a ton more seasons to get out performed by Gilmore. Can't wait to watch it.

First of all, the ABA was not the NBA. The NBA back then was much better. So you really cannot collect ABA stats to measure a player's performance. That is akin to adding a guy's Triple A stats to his major league stats in baseball and then average them.

It also is ridiculous how you degrade Noah once again for not cracking the starting line-up right away. Noah averaged less points per game than Gilmore a lot because he has played.

This ends for me now. I conceded that Gilmore was a better NBA player than Noah is now. But you push shit too far in how you denigrate Noah and insult me. Grow up.

 

[The Hawk]

Ok. Let's take a look at Gilmore's first 8 seasons in the ABA-NBA.

22.1 PPG (on 55.6% shooting)
15.5 RPG
3.0 BPG
3.0 APG
.6 StPG

PER: 23.2

So he was still better across the board from the moment he stepped onto an ABA-NBA floor. Was better in his prime(where Noah is now) and will continue to be better in historical perspective.


First off, Noah was the Bulls primary starting C in his second season. Secondly, why does Noah get a pass for not being able to start right away?



As usual for everything you say, you're wrong.


No. They. Don't.

Let's try this again

Here are Noah's career stats with the Bulls
9.9 PPG (on 49.8% shooting)
9.4 RPG
1.5 BPG
2.7 APG (+.1 APG)
.9 StPG (+.3 StPG)

PER: 18.2

Here are Gilmore's(in his prime 6 season stretch with the Bulls)

20.1 PPG (on 58.7% shooting) (+10.2 PPG and +8.9%)
11.5 RPG (+2.1 RPG)
2.2 BPG (+.7 BPG)
2.6 APG
.6 StPG

PER: 22.1 (+3.9)


Now you're giving Noah credit for winning NFL awards?


By the time Gilmore was Noah's age(in an era of better centers according to you so the competition for awards was tougher) he was a 7 time All Star, 5x All-ABA, All ABA Rookie 1st team, 4x All ABA defensive first team, 1x All ABA defensive second team. He had also won ABA ROY and an ABA MVP.

So....yeah...Gilmore was really really good. Much better than Noah. Like, not even close.


Great. So Noah has a ton more seasons to get out performed by Gilmore. Can't wait to watch it.

First of all, the ABA was not the NBA. The NBA back then was much better. So you really cannot collect ABA stats to measure a player's performance. That is akin to adding a guy's Triple A stats to his major league stats in baseball and then average them.

It also is ridiculous how you degrade Noah once again for gradually cracking the starting line-up right away. Noah averaged less points per game than Gilmore a lot because he has played.

This ends for me now. I conceded that Gilmore was a better NBA player than Noah is now. But you push shit too far in how you denigrate Noah and insult me. Grow up.

 

[FirstTimer]

So you really cannot collect ABA stats to measure a player's performance.

So Gilmore's first 6 seasons are irrelevant. Great.

As Chicago Bulls Gilmore was the far better and more productive player.

Here are Noah's career stats with the Bulls
9.9 PPG (on 49.8% shooting)
9.4 RPG
1.5 BPG
2.7 APG (+.1 APG)
.9 StPG (+.3 StPG)

PER: 18.2

Here are Gilmore's(in his prime 6 season stretch with the Bulls)

20.1 PPG (on 58.7% shooting) (+10.2 PPG and +8.9%)
11.5 RPG (+2.1 RPG)
2.2 BPG (+.7 BPG)
2.6 APG
.6 StPG

PER: 22.1 (+3.9)

It also is ridiculous how you degrade Noah once again for gradually cracking the starting line-up right away.

How is Noah not cracking the starting lineup right away a plus!?!?

Noah averaged less points per game than Gilmore a lot because he has played.

This statement doesn't even make sense. Even with Noah playing a lot he's STILL not averaging anywhere near as many points as Gilmore.

This ends for me now.

This ended for you a while ago. I've just been beating up your corpse.

I conceded that Gilmore was a better NBA player than Noah is now.

How big of you. Conceding the HOF'er and clearly more productive player is better. What's your next concession? You "conceding" that Kobe Bryant is better than Harold Minor?

But you push shit too far in how you denigrate Noah

Saying Noah isn't as good as Artis Gilmore is denigration. Great standard.

Scottie Pippen wasn't as great as Larry Bird. HOW DARE I DENIGRATE SCOTTIE PIPPEN!

and insult me.

Let's review the list of insults I've said in this thread towards you:
"You have zero clue as to what you are talking about."
"That's idiotic." (In regards to you thinking Noah was better than Gilmore....you have since agreed Gilmore was better)

Now let's see what you've said towards me:
People who ask such questions are idiots. (Calling me an idiot)
Fuck off, a-hole.
your ignorant dismissal
numbnuts
a-hole