ESPN predicts Bulls finish tied 8th in East with 40-42 record

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I have a hard time thinking they'll be in the realm of Brooklyn (Kyrie or not).

Milwaukee has arguably the best player in the league and a closer in Middleton. They are the proven champs.

Hawks are loaded. Young and quality starters and bench pieces.

Miami has Butler (better than LaVine or DeRozan, obviously), Adebayo, Lowry, Oladipo, Tucker, Robinson, Herro. They should be better.

If Simmons plays the whole season in Philly, I can see them as better than the Bulls.

Other than that, other teams will have a hard time with Chicago.

Knicks have Walker and Rose. Barrett is up-and-coming. Randle is decent. Robinson, Gibson, and Noel can man the 5 spot. And Fournier helps. Thibs had them improve greatly on D, but I honestly believe the Bulls should be better.

Boston has Tatum and Brown. But I'd rather have the coach and roster surrounding LaVine and DeRozan than the pieces surrounding the C's rising young star wings.

Indiana really shouldn't be as good as the Bulls. A lot of the upside Sabonis gives them, Vucevic gives the Bulls (not saying he's as good). Indy might be somewhat better defensively, but nowhere close offensively.

The Bulls are a 45-52 win team. Defense somewhere mediocre (14th-20th range) and offense potentially very good (top 10). They shouldn't be serious contenders this year. But they will be tough. Caruso will be a second unit leader. White, Green, Jones, and Bradley finish off a nice bench. LaVine will shine with shooters surrounding him and DeRozan (who is a great end-of-shot clock guy to take pressure off of him).

Future tense- they can be scary a couple years down the road if Pat Williams and Lonzo Ball pan out to be All-Stars. I wouldn't necessarily predict that. But at the very least, they are both very young and will improve.

 

[knoxville7]

Butler is obviously better than Lavine?? Interesting take

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Butler is obviously better than Lavine?? Interesting take

Maybe it's interesting if you have a very bland, meaningless life. Or if you think obvious things are interesting for some reason.

A lot of guys put up great stat lines on subpar teams, and LaVine is no different. You put Butler in LaVine's place- the Bulls are a better team than they were prior to that. You put LaVine in Butler's place- the Heat are a worse team than they were prior to that.

 

[knoxville7]

Maybe it's interesting if you have a very bland, meaningless life. Or if you think obvious things are interesting for some reason.

A lot of guys put up great stat lines on subpar teams, and LaVine is no different. You put Butler in LaVine's place- the Bulls are a better team than they were prior to that. You put LaVine in Butler's place- the Heat are a worse team than they were prior to that.

ahhh another person that thinks anyone that has a differing opinion is an inferior individual. Congrats

and then you back it up with just conjecture, nothing factual. Also congrats

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

ahhh another person that thinks anyone that has a differing opinion is an inferior individual. Congrats

and then you back it up with just conjecture, nothing factual. Also congrats

Fact: Jimmy Butler led a team to the NBA Finals.

Fact: Zach LaVine has never even led a team to the NBA Playoffs.

What more needs to be said?

 

[knoxville7]

Fact: Jimmy Butler led a team to the NBA Finals.

Fact: Zach LaVine has never even led a team to the NBA Playoffs.

What more needs to be said?

Lmao so that makes him automatically and obviously better than Zach Lavine as of 10/18/2021? Mmmmmmk buddy

Is jimmy butler also better than Chris Paul then? If you don’t think so, then your logic is flawed(and btw your logic is flawed either way)

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Lmao so that makes him automatically and obviously better than Zach Lavine as of 10/18/2021? Mmmmmmk buddy

Is jimmy butler also better than Chris Paul then? If you don’t think so, then your logic is flawed(and btw your logic is flawed either way)

To take Zach LaVine, and place him in the conversation with Chris Paul or Jimmy Butler is unfair. I feel like LaVine himself would laugh at it.

It's not even disrespect to LaVine. You're talking about two potential Hall of Famers here. Two guys who have led teams to within two victories of an NBA championship. Two guys who are VERY good defensive players... to Zach LaVine (has not done/is not either of those things). Paul had just as much help as LaVine did two years ago. And OKC was... the 4 seed in the Western Conference?

Paul: PHX 2021 Western Conf. champs.
Butler: MIA 2020 Eastern Conf. champs.

You act as though this is old news.

LaVine: Zero NBA seasons on a team with more wins than losses.

Qualify for the Playoffs once first. Once!

Come on.

 

[knoxville7]

To take Zach LaVine, and place him in the conversation with Chris Paul or Jimmy Butler is unfair. I feel like LaVine himself would laugh at it.

It's not even disrespect to LaVine. You're talking about two potential Hall of Famers here. Two guys who have led teams to within two victories of an NBA championship. Two guys who are VERY good defensive players... to Zach LaVine (has not done/is not either of those things). Paul had just as much help as LaVine did two years ago. And OKC was... the 4 seed in the Western Conference?

Paul: PHX 2021 Western Conf. champs.
Butler: MIA 2020 Eastern Conf. champs.

You act as though this is old news.

LaVine: Zero NBA seasons on a team with more wins than losses.

Qualify for the Playoffs once first. Once!

Come on.

This is the problem. You’re conflating team success with how good a player is. You still didn’t answer my question that I posed for you(it had nothing to do with Lavine, merely testing your own logic against you…and it clearly failed miserably), and instead go on some rant about Lavine’s team records. Let’s not ignore that he’s played for two terrible franchises…the timberwolves, and the bulls in full rebuild mode. While jimmy has only played with other all stars basically. Team success is just that, team.

whomst would you start a franchise with today? Oct 18th, 2021? Jimmy or Zach? I love jimmy as much as the next bulls fan, but the fact is the bulls won that trade. You can be a Zach hater all you want, but the reality is he has a better chance of playing in an NBA finals going forward than jimmy does. Don’t live off of past performances

also, LOL @ jimmy being a hall of famer. Not happening

 

[Chief Walking Stick]

If this team clicks, they could easily get to 50 wins. Looked good so far in pre-season (yeah, I know).

I also would not be the least bit surprised if they did disappoint and went 40-42.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

This is the problem. You’re conflating team success with how good a player is. You still didn’t answer my question that I posed for you(it had nothing to do with Lavine, merely testing your own logic against you…and it clearly failed miserably), and instead go on some rant about Lavine’s team records. Let’s not ignore that he’s played for two terrible franchises…the timberwolves, and the bulls in full rebuild mode. While jimmy has only played with other all stars basically. Team success is just that, team.

whomst would you start a franchise with today? Oct 18th, 2021? Jimmy or Zach? I love jimmy as much as the next bulls fan, but the fact is the bulls won that trade. You can be a Zach hater all you want, but the reality is he has a better chance of playing in an NBA finals going forward than jimmy does. Don’t live off of past performances

also, LOL @ jimmy being a hall of famer. Not happening

The question of "who would you rather start an NBA franchise with?" is a bad way of comparing players right now.

It is a much better question to ask "who would you rather have next season?".

Now, would I rather have Jimmy Butler next season or Zach LaVine? Not an unfair question in terms of the position they play (both wings). Jimmy Butler and it's not even close. Now, when Butler is 38 and LaVine is 32, ask me again. But, I'm not convinced LaVine will ever be better than him.

Butler has a higher PER. Butler is a much, much better defender. Butler is a better passer. Butler gets to the line more often. And he's just as good as LaVine from midrange and near the basket in terms of scoring. Is he flashier or as athletic? No. But I'll still take him. He also gets a LOT out of his guys in terms of leading by example. Is he the perfect leader? No. But I'll certainly take a guy who is a little toxic over a guy who can't even lead a team to a .500 record. A guy named MJ was a little toxic as well.

You must not know much about the Basketball HOF if you laugh at the idea that Butler is potentially going in there someday.

Chris Paul was the best player in the Western Conference playoffs aside from Luka Doncic in the 7 games he played. He had an amazing close-out performance to defeat the Clippers. He is the best PG over the past two decades. He is a proven, excellent team leader. He is an excellent defender. He is arguably the best passer in the NBA. He is a well above average three-point shooter, GREAT mid-range shooter.

To compare Butler to Chris Paul, the only fair way to do this is to not know who the surrounding players would be around each. Both play somewhat different positions in an increasingly position-less NBA. I certainly wouldn't trade Butler to PHX for Paul if I were the Heat. And I certainly would not do the inverse if I was the Suns.

Now, would I trade LaVine for CP3 if I was the Bulls? Under realistic scenarios, I'm not so sure. Even if both had 1 year left on their respective contracts, do I believe the Bulls would be better with a lineup of Paul-Ball-DeRozan-Williams-Vucevic? Or Ball-LaVine-DeRozan-Williams-Vucevic? I lean towards the former- not the latter.

Ball-Butler backcourt vs. Ball-LaVine backcourt? 1 year or 5 years, I'll take the former. That being said, I still consider Paul to be the best player out of the three players in question. Even in the twilight of his career.

There is something called inflated individual stats on bad teams. The Bulls have been a bad offense the entire time LaVine has been on the roster. And LaVine is scoring 25-28 points/gm. Is LaVine a better scorer than Derrick Rose was? At least Rose had the Bulls at a slightly above average offensive clip. And he was scoring between 21-26 points/gm while number 1 option the team. I don't think anyone in their right mind would claim LaVine now>prime D-Rose.

 

[MassHavoc]

This is the problem. You’re conflating team success with how good a player is. You still didn’t answer my question that I posed for you(it had nothing to do with Lavine, merely testing your own logic against you…and it clearly failed miserably), and instead go on some rant about Lavine’s team records. Let’s not ignore that he’s played for two terrible franchises…the timberwolves, and the bulls in full rebuild mode. While jimmy has only played with other all stars basically. Team success is just that, team.

whomst would you start a franchise with today? Oct 18th, 2021? Jimmy or Zach? I love jimmy as much as the next bulls fan, but the fact is the bulls won that trade. You can be a Zach hater all you want, but the reality is he has a better chance of playing in an NBA finals going forward than jimmy does. Don’t live off of past performances

also, LOL @ jimmy being a hall of famer. Not happening

Jimmy is better, but not for the weird reasons he's trying to make up. To answer your question, his projected WS/48 this upcoming season is double what Zach's is. Zach scores more, and is more of a volume guy, definately more athletic, but Jimmy has a better all around game still.

 

[knoxville7]

Jimmy is better, but not for the weird reasons he's trying to make up. To answer your question, his projected WS/48 this upcoming season is double what Zach's is. Zach scores more, and is more of a volume guy, definately more athletic, but Jimmy has a better all around game still.

And at least you give factual reasoning to back it up, thankyou

I still think Zach would be the choice of the majority of nba gms when poised with the question of… “as of today, to start a roster for an nba franchise…who would you take? Jimmy butler or Zach Lavine?”

 

[MassHavoc]

And at least you give factual reasoning to back it up, thankyou

I still think Zach would be the choice of the majority of nba gms when poised with the question of… “as of today, to start a roster for an nba franchise…who would you take? Jimmy butler or Zach Lavine?”

Sure. maybe, but that wasn't exactly the question. Just give then age difference and Zach coming into his prime you would have to think a lot of sentiment would be around going with Zach. But they are also different players. Zach has really worked on his defense, and he's still getting better. Jimmy is Jimmy at this point. The big point here that we can't easily take into the equation is the development of Zach if he would have been on better teams or different coaches. If he was on teams that had more talent and didn't have a opponent basically game-planing to stop him, he might have had time to focus on other talents but basically he's just been relied upon to score. This yeah will be an incredible year to gauge his growth, or what growth he still has left because he has enough talent around him to be able to focus on an all around game. Jimmy has had some other really good players around him for 3 years now and it shows. Plus he was developed by a really good coach. Donovan is going to be great for Zach. The trash he's had previously... He had one year of Flip, then Sam Mitchell, then Thibs for half a season, now you're traded to fucking Fred Hoiberg, and then Jim Boylen... FFS. He had 5 coaches in his first 5 years. and now a 6th in 7 years.

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

538 doesn't like us.

Out of curiosity, and granted I haven't looked at it (and probably won't), but how are the Raptors rated behind the Bulls and Wizards yet ahead of them?

 

[knoxville7]

Sure. maybe, but that wasn't exactly the question. Just give then age difference and Zach coming into his prime you would have to think a lot of sentiment would be around going with Zach. But they are also different players. Zach has really worked on his defense, and he's still getting better. Jimmy is Jimmy at this point. The big point here that we can't easily take into the equation is the development of Zach if he would have been on better teams or different coaches. If he was on teams that had more talent and didn't have a opponent basically game-planing to stop him, he might have had time to focus on other talents but basically he's just been relied upon to score. This yeah will be an incredible year to gauge his growth, or what growth he still has left because he has enough talent around him to be able to focus on an all around game. Jimmy has had some other really good players around him for 3 years now and it shows. Plus he was developed by a really good coach. Donovan is going to be great for Zach. The trash he's had previously... He had one year of Flip, then Sam Mitchell, then Thibs for half a season, now you're traded to fucking Fred Hoiberg, and then Jim Boylen... FFS. He had 5 coaches in his first 5 years. and now a 6th in 7 years.

Totally agree with everything you said

the age thing works both ways, though. Like when the other poster was mentioning all the team accolades of butler and comparing them to ZL, well jimmy is older and has had more chances to have those experiences. In 5 years ZL may have more team accolades than butler does to this point. I mean, it’s not like jimmy has THAT much to brag about for team accolades. The other poster acted like his trip to the nba finals made him a HOFer and shit like that.

jimmy is a really good player, but he isn’t a future HOFer IMO

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

And at least you give factual reasoning to back it up, thankyou

I still think Zach would be the choice of the majority of nba gms when poised with the question of… “as of today, to start a roster for an nba franchise…who would you take? Jimmy butler or Zach Lavine?”

Asks for "facts"

Final argument is: pretty sure most gmz wud sign him for long trm!!!!

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

Rami is the anti- @remydat

 

[MassHavoc]

Totally agree with everything you said

the age thing works both ways, though. Like when the other poster was mentioning all the team accolades of butler and comparing them to ZL, well jimmy is older and has had more chances to have those experiences. In 5 years ZL may have more team accolades than butler does to this point. I mean, it’s not like jimmy has THAT much to brag about for team accolades. The other poster acted like his trip to the nba finals made him a HOFer and shit like that.

jimmy is a really good player, but he isn’t a future HOFer IMO

Don't know we'll see. I bet Jimmy makes it, he's been in the league 9 years, depends on how many more he goes. that's a lot of time, but he's still only just turned 32. And we have to remember the truncated COVID seasons give back a little to the bodies. So it really just comes down to if he can adjust his game and what he gives a team as he gets older. If he can't adjust to not being a starter on a team maybe he doesn't pull in those numbers. If he can stretch his career get another team and sherpa some new stars into the league maybe get a ring, I think he's in. He's got some really good advanced number but I'm not going to take the time to see how they actually compare to the rest of the league because this isn't really my dog in this.

 

[knoxville7]

Asks for "facts"

Final argument is: pretty sure most gmz wud sign him for long trm!!!!

That wasn’t in response to anything you said, it was a conversation with a different poster. But sure, go ahead and conflate that as well…you’re good at it

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

That wasn’t in response to anything you said, it was a conversation with a different poster. But sure, go ahead and conflate that as well…you’re good at it

For someone who complains a lot about facts, you sure don't use many/any.

Shall we count the facts made by yourself and by myself since the beginning of our discussion?