Final and Period!!!!!!!!

[Rose1]

I'm tired of hearing Bulls fans talking about we need to address Ben Gordon absence this summer through the draft. Well, fact is, I think Paxson need to pay this dude. He's been the most essential player on our roster besides Rose. If you look in the league as it stands right now, I think Wade, Lebron, Anthony, then Gordon will be the candidates in discussion of who delivered more game-winners. Just imagine if such record/stat exist. I firmly believe Hinrich name will be near the bottom of that statistics. What's so hard about addressing the inside with scoring through the draft. Notable names: Cole Aldrich, Craig Brackins, BJ Mullens, Jordan Hill, Gani Lawal, Austin Daye (Austin my favorite). For god sake, Bosh outscored our entire front-line damn near last Sunday. Thomas has a long way to go and I think when he does arrive, his athletic ability will be on a down spiral. Right now, he still has modest skills and it takes a fantastic play for him to regain trust in fans. Paxson, needs to draft one of them players if he's trying to make progression. Heck, draft Mullens if he's available and hire someone like Patrick Ewing to teach him the ropes. I have Big-ten network and when I did get the chance to check out Ohio State and Illini, of course I did. Mullens is not far away at all. From Observation, he will be very good if the guy wants to be.

 

[??? ??????]

Ben Gordon has 13 career game winners. Since entering the league, only Lebron James and Kobe Bryant have more. I don't believe Kirk Hinrich has any. I don't think any of our roster has any as a Bull, except for Tyrus Thomas, when he made that tip in against Denver. Some of the other Bulls may have hit a game winner, but my mind isn't digging up anything right now in regards to the other Bulls. There was Larry Hughes against Utah, but he's not a Bull anymore.

To put that in perspective, Michael Jordan made 25 career game winners as a Bull. If Gordon were to stay here on a six year contract, and played out that entire contract, he should, if he stays on pace, he will have the Bulls record for game winners. Yes, the Jordan Bulls didn't have quite as many close games, but it would still be an impressive feat. (Jordan was much more accurate though...more accurate then any high volume game winner maker right now).

I think the Bulls biggest problem is 1. Their coaching and 2. Their interior defense. When I watch the Bulls, I see a defense in disarray. Stopping penetration is only partly about shotblocking. The other way to stop penetration is to set for the charge. That is why we gave Dwyane Wade so much difficulty when Skiles was here. We would have Hinrich play pesky defense on Wade, then have Nocioni/Allen/Wallace/Brown etc. set for a charge, and then also have a shotblocker nearby, completely clogging up Wade's drives. When we get a new coach, or a defensive guru assistant, it would be nice to see some good defensive sets put in.

The other problem is our interior defense. Thomas can block shots, but he's not a guy who can lock down the entire paint like a Mutumbo, Shaq, Duncan, Howard, etc. I think having one of those guys would greatly help this team. (Tyson Chandler is still somewhat one of these, and Ben Wallace was still decent at this his first year here.) Hasheem Thabeet and Cole Aldrich are the two guys that I think in this draft could potentially be defensive anchors.

 

[Rose1]

Someone close to the Bulls have just said that Amare Stoudemire will be acquired this summer and not Bosh. the GM of Raptors, Bryan Colangelo, has told Paxson and Mullins that Bosh is staying in Toronto. Paxson also will give up both picks, Ty. Thomas, and James to Phoenix. GM Kerr told a source he's fond of making a deal like that come draft day if Suns don't make the playoffs.

Source: Usjsa1.net

Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now we can throw the ball in to someone and expect a field-goal.

 

[DanTown]

Rose1 wrote:

Someone close to the Bulls have just said that Amare Stoudemire will be acquired this summer and not Bosh. the GM of Raptors, Bryan Colangelo, has told Paxson and Mullins that Bosh is staying in Toronto. Paxson also will give up both picks, Ty. Thomas, and James to Phoenix. GM Kerr told a source he's fond of making a deal like that come draft day if Suns don't make the playoffs.

Source: Usjsa1.net

Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now we can throw the ball in to someone and expect a field-goal.

\

That trade isn't a legal trade. James has a contract option and can't be traded until he picks it up (after the draft). And it isn't enough salary going out for Chicago to do the deal.

Better deal
To Toronto
Luol Deng

To Phoenix
Tyrus Thomas
Tim Thomas
#1 from Toronto
#1 from Chicago

To Chicago
Amare Stoudemire
Jason Kapono

 

[dougthonus]

DanTown wrote:

Rose1 wrote:

Someone close to the Bulls have just said that Amare Stoudemire will be acquired this summer and not Bosh. the GM of Raptors, Bryan Colangelo, has told Paxson and Mullins that Bosh is staying in Toronto. Paxson also will give up both picks, Ty. Thomas, and James to Phoenix. GM Kerr told a source he's fond of making a deal like that come draft day if Suns don't make the playoffs.

Source: Usjsa1.net

Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now we can throw the ball in to someone and expect a field-goal.

That trade isn't a legal trade. James has a contract option and can't be traded until he picks it up (after the draft). And it isn't enough salary going out for Chicago to do the deal.

Better deal
To Toronto
Luol Deng

To Phoenix
Tyrus Thomas
Tim Thomas
#1 from Toronto
#1 from Chicago

To Chicago
Amare Stoudemire
Jason Kapono

You know James is going to pick up the option, so you could just do the trade after he picks it up and agree to it at draft time and finalize it later if you wanted.

I think a trade like that would be likely for Phoenix to take as well. Your trade is basically the same thing except we trade Luol Deng to Phoenix for Jason Kapono, I don't know that we'd do that. Deng's contract is bad, but he's a legit NBA player. Kapono is crap.

 

[Basghetti80]

Ok I think Amare is more likely than Bosh as well but not by much. If we get Amare then it would be for Tyrus, James, both picks and Deng stays here making it a lock that Gordon walks. I would be fine with that as well. Rose, Salmons, Deng,Amare,Noah,Miller,Hinrich is a quality 7 man rotation provided Deng comes back and plays well.

 

[Hendu0520]

I would much rather have Chris Bosh. We almost traded for Amare before the trade deadline and he went down with another injury, plus Amare is one of the worst defending PF's in the League. Bosh is younger, better defensively, and has not been injured as much. He doesn't have the power game, but he does have the better jump shot. If we made the trade for Amare this year we wouldn't be in the playoffs because Amare wouldn't be playing. (Some might say though he wouldn't have gotten injured if he got traded etc.. but lets not get too deep on the what ifs) However I do think we would be better with either of those players, I just prefer Bosh a lot more.

 

[Hendu0520]

Ben Gordon has easily been the best and most clutch player since Jordan. Two problems with him that will never go away. He will always be a mismatch, DWade is the smallest 2 guard to ever be on a Championship team since the 1980's. Ben is smaller than him, when you can't stop anyone on the other end or we constantly have to double team (even a guard who isn't good) it is hard to win games. Also I know that Ben also probably leads the league in kicking the ball into the 3rd row on a final shot. It is tough to swollow a missed game winner but when you don't even get up a decent shot and no one is even guarding you it is very frustrating. I love Ben Gordon, I played against him in high school, he is from my area but he is just too much of a mismatch.

 

[Hendu0520]

The Spurs have Ginobili but they also have the best big man in the game and a solid veteran Finley 6'6 to play in front of him.

 

[Dpauley23]

Wait did that guy make that up or was that really a story?

 

[Bullsman24]

DanTown wrote:

Rose1 wrote:


That trade isn't a legal trade. James has a contract option and can't be traded until he picks it up (after the draft). And it isn't enough salary going out for Chicago to do the deal.

Better deal
To Toronto
Luol Deng

To Phoenix
Tyrus Thomas
Tim Thomas
#1 from Toronto
#1 from Chicago

To Chicago
Amare Stoudemire
Jason Kapono

i don't see how that makes sense. toronto trades a #1 and jason kapono for luol deng???
that doesn't make any sense. deng might be injury prone, but that's ridiculous.

 

[Kush77]

I agree with this post. Ben Gordon isn't the problem with this team.

You can win with a small guard, you just need a better team overall. The Bulls are far from a complete team, and for some reason people want to put the blame on Gordon.

 

[Dpauley23]

If Rose doesn't improve on his defense then he probably does have to go, but if Rose becomes good defender he can stay

 

[wjb1492]

??? ?????? wrote:

Ben Gordon has 13 career game winners. Since entering the league, only Lebron James and Kobe Bryant have more. I don't believe Kirk Hinrich has any. I don't think any of our roster has any as a Bull, except for Tyrus Thomas, when he made that tip in against Denver. Some of the other Bulls may have hit a game winner, but my mind isn't digging up anything right now in regards to the other Bulls. There was Larry Hughes against Utah, but he's not a Bull anymore.

Kirk has hit the last shot that ended up being the winner before. Off the top of my head, I can't think of game winning buzzer beaters. I think Ben Wallace had a game winning free throw, but he's also not a Bull anymore.

On the other hand, and not to take anything away from Ben making the ones he has, he's gotten the final shot a whole heck of a lot more than any of the other guys, with the possible exception of their so-far-unsuccessful efforts to make Derrick The Guy this year. I was trying to think of other guys even taking game winning shots, much less making - and I come up with a lot of Ben perimeter shots with the smattering of Derrick layup attempts. Maybe next time I'm bored while proctoring a test I'll research Bulls' game winning shots and see what it turns up.

It was frustrating to read that quote from Granger after the last Indiana game about knowing what the final play would be - Ben and everyone else would benefit if the Bulls had a little variety there.

 

[Jamfan]

The only problems I have with Gordon is his size and the fact that he's been very inconsistent throughout his career. I think we can get him for a bargain this offseason though and we need to take advantage of that. Our team next year could look something like Rose, Gordon, Salmons, Bosh, and Noah if everything goes right.

 

[wjb1492]

Well, I was too curious about the whole game winning thing to wait, so I had to go at least look at this year. To limit the number of games I'd be looking at, I narrowed it down to games with a final scoring margin of 3 or less, since logically these could have been changed with a single final shot (Ben's and-1 heroics notwithstanding). I also included the end of the 4th quarter for all OT games, even if the final margin was greater than 3, since shots/missed shots at the end of regulation also had outcome-changing potential. If OT also ended up within 3 I included the final :20 of OT, but if the OT ended up with a scoring margin greater than 3 I did not.

Within those parameters, I counted all shots within the final :20. I'm sure there are good arguments in favor of only looking at the ultimate shot or considering more or less than the final 20 seconds, but that seemed like as good a place as any to me. At that point, the game is definitely on its final legs as far as scoring opportunities, and anyone taking a shot in the final 20 seconds of a very close game is definitely going to be feeling the pressure.

I only considered direct attempts to put the ball in the basket. I do have some issue with this, because assists, rebounds, fouls, blocks, steals, and obviously TOs can be extremely significant at the end of the game. Maybe I'll go back and look at those someday.

So with all that said, here are the shot and free throw attempts in the final 20 seconds of regulation in which the score at the end of regulation was within 3 points, and in the final 20 seconds of any OT in which the final score at the end of that OT:

Ben 3-7, 7-10 FT
Derrick 1-7, 2-2 FT
Tyrus 2-2
John 3-4 FT
Kirk 1-1
Aaron 0-1
Noc 1-2, 1-3 FT
Larry 1-1

The "game winners" this year were Larry's shot, and the combo of Kirk's layup and Ben's free throw at the end of the 3/23 Washington game. And Tyrus and Ben had baskets (in Ben's case, the 3-pointer and-1 against the Clips) to tie up a game in regulation, while Derrick hit 2 FTs to send a game to OT.

 

[dougthonus]

wjb1492 wrote:

??? ?????? wrote:

Ben Gordon has 13 career game winners. Since entering the league, only Lebron James and Kobe Bryant have more. I don't believe Kirk Hinrich has any. I don't think any of our roster has any as a Bull, except for Tyrus Thomas, when he made that tip in against Denver. Some of the other Bulls may have hit a game winner, but my mind isn't digging up anything right now in regards to the other Bulls. There was Larry Hughes against Utah, but he's not a Bull anymore.

Kirk has hit the last shot that ended up being the winner before. Off the top of my head, I can't think of game winning buzzer beaters. I think Ben Wallace had a game winning free throw, but he's also not a Bull anymore.

On the other hand, and not to take anything away from Ben making the ones he has, he's gotten the final shot a whole heck of a lot more than any of the other guys, with the possible exception of their so-far-unsuccessful efforts to make Derrick The Guy this year. I was trying to think of other guys even taking game winning shots, much less making - and I come up with a lot of Ben perimeter shots with the smattering of Derrick layup attempts. Maybe next time I'm bored while proctoring a test I'll research Bulls' game winning shots and see what it turns up.

It was frustrating to read that quote from Granger after the last Indiana game about knowing what the final play would be - Ben and everyone else would benefit if the Bulls had a little variety there.

The amount of attempts for game winners is interesting. You're right in that we almost always go to Ben Gordon since he's been here. The only other players I can think of getting consistent chances in final possession situations have been Nocioni and Derrick Rose, both of whom were singularly terrible at it thus far.

I'm not sure how we're defining game winner if Kirk/Deng have 9 like someone said. This can't be a "buzzer beater" game winner if they've got 9. I don't know that I remember either guy ever hitting even 1. Maybe a shot that gave us the lead and hten the other team missed another shot, but that's sort of a different situation.

 

[Morten Jensen]

All the talk about Ben's size preventing us from anything significant;

Detroit Pistons won back-to-back NBA titles in 1989 and 1990. Their back-court?

6'3 Joe Dumars
6'1 Isiah Thomas

6'2 Vinnie Johnson

I think we can all agree that the lack of height is not historically unique and if the Bulls won something, it wouldn't be the first time a small back-court did so. While we're at it, Joe and Isiah were the main offense on that Pistons team. In the 1989 playoffs, it was in fact Thomas, Dumars and Johnson as the 1st, 2nd and 3rd leading Pistons scorer.

So I absolutely agree with everyone here saying that Ben's size wouldn't and shouldn't be an obstacle.

 

[dougthonus]

The counter point would be that this was almost 30 years ago.

Still, I don't think size has much to do with it accept that the bigger guards are often more talented, but overall talent wins.

Gordon isn't a top tier title winning talent type guy, but he's certainly talented enough to be a major contributor. If you put him on a team with legit title winning talent then I don't think size would hurt you.

 

[Morten Jensen]

dougthonus wrote:

The counter point would be that this was almost 30 years ago.

20, but point taken

Still, I don't think size has much to do with it accept that the bigger guards are often more talented, but overall talent wins.

Gordon isn't a top tier title winning talent type guy, but he's certainly talented enough to be a major contributor. If you put him on a team with legit title winning talent then I don't think size would hurt you.

Well that's my point. We've all seen people say that Gordon directly could prevent the Bulls from being champions only due to his size. I feel that notion is laughable as I agree with your point about talent. When you compare Gordon to the other shooting guards in the NBA, he's up there with the best of them. He's not a middle-of-the-pack player. He's a legitimate two-guard who can make valid, and large, contributions.

But I agree you need better players around him in order to succeed. But that's not a knock on Ben. You would also need better players around Jason Richardson if you wanted to win a championship with him.