Fred's Scottie Pippen hate

[Kush77]

I'm starting a new thread for this instead of adding to the massive Stoudemire thread - which has spawned about 4 different discussions.

Fred
"lol. Didn't mean to touch that nerve, Kush. That's one area we won't agree on. Man, oh man, does that Pacers game 4 still pisses me off. And very few people remember those missed free throws.

I agree with you on Kobe being ahead of Pippen."

Those free throws missed were bad. But I'll also throw out there the lockdown defense he played on point guard Mark Jackson in games 1 and 2 of that series.

Also his clutch three-point play in game 7 when he hit that hook shot while being pushed out of bounds.

Go find that one on youtube Fred! B)

 

[RC_Skinny22]

How can you hate this guy? You have to be crazy!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tObgS6uUVjQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zyzx6ISXQGw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5mL1L57rtI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9vFHYVXtRk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1YchiFv-5M&feature=related

Best Bull not named Michael Jordan!

And because of 2 missed FT? How many gamewinners did MJ not hit? Stupid!

 

[jayswagger]

What's up with the Scottie Pippen hate? He's hands down the 2nd greatest Bull ever and fans don't like him. Yeah he did not win without MJ but MJ never won without him either. I've heard Fred's Toni Kukoc lovefest and he is 1/2 the player Scottie was.

PS: Everybody thats all on Kobe's nuts go join a Laker fan site!!!

 

[clonetrooper264]

I really don't understand how you can hate the best Bull not named Michael Jordan. He's probably the best defensive SF ever to play the game and he could score 20+ ppg if needed. Not to mention that he was probably a better teammate than Jordan could ever have hoped to be. Scottie could do just about everything except be a clutch player, but that doesn't mean that he deserves hate. Clutch play and offense isn't everything in basketball you know.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Let's also not forget how he played without Jordan. 20+ points, nearly 3 steals, 8 rebounds, 5 assists, and about a block per game. And he shot nearly 50% from the field to boot. No reason to be hating on Scottie.

 

[postdiction]

I am coming into the argument late and I am only going by what Kush posted but, to be honest I don't hate too many Bulls from the 90s. How could you? Even with their faults we were winning championships and setting records. I love Rodman, Kerr, Paxson, Kukoc (I actually met him when I was a kid) etc..

Having said that, I have always felt Pippen was under appreciated for the 2nd 3peat (don't really remember the 1st 3peat)

Pippen was truly the best complimentary wing player for MJ because he took a lot of pressure of MJ.

Pippen:
- Usually guarded the best wing player (though MJ was an equally good defender in his own right)
- Always brought up the ball and initiated the offense during crunch time (see LBJ having to do that for the cavs currently)
- Played amazing help D contributing our overall strength on defense
- He was able to hit 3 so he could help space the floor for MJ
- He was able to take on the scoring burden for parts of the game if MJ wasn't feeling it.
- Was a decent rebounder.

All these things combined to help MJ tremendously by saving MJ's energy to do what he did best score points.

I love what Pip did for the Bulls and he will always be one my favorites.

 

[Fred]

I don't have any hate for Scottie Pippen. I laughed for about 10 minutes reading the thread title. I've always said, he's probably the 2nd best perimeter defender I've ever seen (just behind the greatest defender in the history of the universe, Kirk Hinrich). He was a game changer on the defensive end, and I'll always remember him shutting down Magic in Game 1 of the Finals.

That said, and this is just a personal thing, but my favorite players have always been killer clutch and great shooters. My favorite all-time Bulls are Jordan, Craig Hodges, John Paxson, Kukoc, Gordon, and Rose (on his way). Scottie was non-clutch on the offensive end, and he pissed me and Michael off several times with petulant,BS behavior.

Like..

a. Waiting until just before the start of the 07-08 season to have surgery. He did this on purpose to screw the team because he didn't like the contract he signed. He missed half the season
b. Sitting out 1.8 seconds in Game 3 of the Knicks series because Phil Jackson rightly wanted Kukoc to win the game instead of Scottie bricking it.
c. His career playoff shooting percentages of
44.4 from the field, 30.3 from 3, 72.4 from the line...
Hardly the signs of a guy stepping up his offensive game when it matters.
I just feel that Jordan made Pippen. I don't think he would have been half the player he ended up being without Michael challenging him in practice, demanding him to perform. And in my opinion, Scottie didn't show Jordan the respect he deserved.
d. He's a cheap tipper. I find that unforgiveable as a former caddie.

Don't get me wrong, I think Scottie is a Hall of Famer, and we may have only won 2 or 3 titles without him. But we would at least one without him, IMO, as long as Michael was here. We win zero without MJ. We dont win the 6th title without Kukoc. We lose Game 7 of the Pacers series without Toni. I think Toni was more important for that 6th title, since Pippen only played half the season and was hindered by a bad back all year. Or supposedly a bad back. Or a migraine. Or whatever his reason was for shooting so badly.

 

[Kush77]

Fred wrote:

I don't have any hate for Scottie Pippen. I laughed for about 10 minutes reading the thread title. I've always said, he's probably the 2nd best perimeter defender I've ever seen (just behind the greatest defender in the history of the universe, Kirk Hinrich). He was a game changer on the defensive end, and I'll always remember him shutting down Magic in Game 1 of the Finals.

That said, and this is just a personal thing, but my favorite players have always been killer clutch and great shooters. My favorite all-time Bulls are Jordan, Craig Hodges, John Paxson, Kukoc, Gordon, and Rose (on his way). Scottie was non-clutch on the offensive end, and he pissed me and Michael off several times with petulant,BS behavior.

Like..

a. Waiting until just before the start of the 07-08 season to have surgery. He did this on purpose to screw the team because he didn't like the contract he signed. He missed half the season
b. Sitting out 1.8 seconds in Game 3 of the Knicks series because Phil Jackson rightly wanted Kukoc to win the game instead of Scottie bricking it.
c. His career playoff shooting percentages of
44.4 from the field, 30.3 from 3, 72.4 from the line...
Hardly the signs of a guy stepping up his offensive game when it matters.
I just feel that Jordan made Pippen. I don't think he would have been half the player he ended up being without Michael challenging him in practice, demanding him to perform. And in my opinion, Scottie didn't show Jordan the respect he deserved.
d. He's a cheap tipper. I find that unforgiveable as a former caddie.

Don't get me wrong, I think Scottie is a Hall of Famer, and we may have only won 2 or 3 titles without him. But we would at least one without him, IMO, as long as Michael was here. We win zero without MJ. We dont win the 6th title without Kukoc. We lose Game 7 of the Pacers series without Toni. I think Toni was more important for that 6th title, since Pippen only played half the season and was hindered by a bad back all year. Or supposedly a bad back. Or a migraine. Or whatever his reason was for shooting so badly.

Oh Craig Hodges. Let's find the youtube videos of all of his clutch performances. Too bad they all took place during the 3-point shootout.

Scottie waited to have surgery. Possibly. He could have done it over the summer, but I believe he said he wanted to avoid surgery. I'll take his word for it B)

Why did he need surgery by the way? Oh yeah, after hurting his foot in Game 5 vs the Heat he played injured during the 1997 Finals. So I can forgive him for having the surgery.

Toni Kukoc the reason we won the 6th title? Really. He filled in nicely for 2 months when Scottie was out. Pippen would have been the Finals MVP if he didn't play poorly in /game 5 vs Utah. Jordan played like crap too. Kukoc almost single-handedly won that Game 5. But other than that he played like he always did. nothing mind blowing outside of game 5.

And Scottie had moments in the clutch. He didn't have buzzer-beaters, but is that the only way you can be clutch Fred?
I remember Scottie getting that dunk and foul in the final seconds of Game 3 vs. Washington in 1997. And after faling on his back, he hit the free-throw. He also hit a big 3 vs. the Knicks in 1993 in that game 6 closer. So are those plays not clutch?

Let me throw Toni Kukoc's career playoff numbers out there for you

FG% 44, 3pt %34 and FT% 69. And let's not forget the whopping 3.9 rebs per game for a 6'11 forward.

I don't want to bash Toni because I like him a lot, but he wasn't more important for the 6th title than Pippen. That's just silly.

 

[Fred]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199805310CHI.html

We lose this game 7 without Toni Kukoc and his 21 points. Scottie was bricking up 12 shots in this game, and Toni scored 21 on 11 shots. Check out that 3rd quarter. I'm just saying, if Toni is not on the Bulls, how do we possibly win that game? The Pacers win and go on to face the Jazz. Scottie had a tendancy to play keep away with Krause's boy Toni. I have no idea how Toni only got 11 shots in this game. In Game 5 against the Jazz, he scored 30 points on only 13 shots, or something ridiculous like that.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Fred wrote:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199805310CHI.html

We lose this game 7 without Toni Kukoc and his 21 points. Scottie was bricking up 12 shots in this game, and Toni scored 21 on 11 shots. Check out that 3rd quarter. I'm just saying, if Toni is not on the Bulls, how do we possibly win that game? The Pacers win and go on to face the Jazz. Scottie had a tendancy to play keep away with Krause's boy Toni. I have no idea how Toni only got 11 shots in this game. In Game 5 against the Jazz, he scored 30 points on only 13 shots, or something ridiculous like that.

Jordan wasn't too hot in that game either. 28 points on 25 shots and 15 FTs. Kukoc had a great game, no denying, but if Jordan or Pippen had played up to the caliber of players that they were, Kukoc's 21 points would have been icing on the cake. Or if the team could have made more than 59% of their FTAs.

 

[Kush77]

Fred wrote:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199805310CHI.html

We lose this game 7 without Toni Kukoc and his 21 points. Scottie was bricking up 12 shots in this game, and Toni scored 21 on 11 shots. Check out that 3rd quarter. I'm just saying, if Toni is not on the Bulls, how do we possibly win that game? The Pacers win and go on to face the Jazz. Scottie had a tendancy to play keep away with Krause's boy Toni. I have no idea how Toni only got 11 shots in this game. In Game 5 against the Jazz, he scored 30 points on only 13 shots, or something ridiculous like that.

Why do you only point out Pippen having a bad game in Game 7. Everyone shot poorly in that game. But only Pippen's bad shooting effects the team? Jordan didn't shoot well. Neither did Harper or Longley.

So why is it that you only point out Pippen's bad shooting? Pippen came through with a big play when it counted. Luc Longley hit a big shot as well. That's what you like being a big fan of Craig Hodges. B)

Pippen led all rebounders with 12. That helped.

 

[Shakes]

We were 36-8 in games Pippen played, and 28-10 in the games he missed during the regular season. So I think it's reasonable to say without Pippen the Pacers have home court advantage and win the series.

 

[Diddy1122]

Kush77 wrote:

Fred wrote:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199805310CHI.html

We lose this game 7 without Toni Kukoc and his 21 points. Scottie was bricking up 12 shots in this game, and Toni scored 21 on 11 shots. Check out that 3rd quarter. I'm just saying, if Toni is not on the Bulls, how do we possibly win that game? The Pacers win and go on to face the Jazz. Scottie had a tendancy to play keep away with Krause's boy Toni. I have no idea how Toni only got 11 shots in this game. In Game 5 against the Jazz, he scored 30 points on only 13 shots, or something ridiculous like that.

Why do you only point out Pippen having a bad game in Game 7. Everyone shot poorly in that game. But only Pippen's bad shooting effects the team? Jordan didn't shoot well. Neither did Harper or Longley.

So why is it that you only point out Pippen's bad shooting? Pippen came through with a big play when it counted. Luc Longley hit a big shot as well. That's what you like being a big fan of Craig Hodges. B)

Pippen led all rebounders with 12. That helped.

Everyone was collectively bad from the field that game & it was defense, bench, & offensive rebounds that gave us the victory. Including a couple big boards down the stretch by Jordan & Harper to help seal the deal. Pip had 6 offensive boards alone.

But I gotta agree with Fred here. Without Kukoc & Kerr hitting 3's to help us get back from 13 down, we don't win that game. The Zen Master even said so himself.

"Kukoc is the guy tonight who really stepped up big for us," Jackson said. "Without his contribution and Steve Kerr's open looks off the bench, we don't stay in this game."

 

[TheStig]

Fred, not sure how many buzzer beaters you want from Pippen. Personally, I was happy to have MJ take those and have shooters like Kukoc, Kerr and others stretch the floor for him. Not everyone needs to be MJ, you can only have one chief and the rest have to be indians.

 

[Kush77]

Diddy1122 wrote:

Kush77 wrote:

Fred wrote:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199805310CHI.html

We lose this game 7 without Toni Kukoc and his 21 points. Scottie was bricking up 12 shots in this game, and Toni scored 21 on 11 shots. Check out that 3rd quarter. I'm just saying, if Toni is not on the Bulls, how do we possibly win that game? The Pacers win and go on to face the Jazz. Scottie had a tendancy to play keep away with Krause's boy Toni. I have no idea how Toni only got 11 shots in this game. In Game 5 against the Jazz, he scored 30 points on only 13 shots, or something ridiculous like that.

Why do you only point out Pippen having a bad game in Game 7. Everyone shot poorly in that game. But only Pippen's bad shooting effects the team? Jordan didn't shoot well. Neither did Harper or Longley.

So why is it that you only point out Pippen's bad shooting? Pippen came through with a big play when it counted. Luc Longley hit a big shot as well. That's what you like being a big fan of Craig Hodges. B)

Pippen led all rebounders with 12. That helped.

Everyone was collectively bad from the field that game & it was defense, bench, & offensive rebounds that gave us the victory. Including a couple big boards down the stretch by Jordan & Harper to help seal the deal. Pip had 6 offensive boards alone.

But I gotta agree with Fred here. Without Kukoc & Kerr hitting 3's to help us get back from 13 down, we don't win that game. The Zen Master even said so himself.

"Kukoc is the guy tonight who really stepped up big for us," Jackson said. "Without his contribution and Steve Kerr's open looks off the bench, we don't stay in this game."

Well then I guess we can say that about a lot of guys. If we didn't have Jordan - we don't win. If Pippen doesn't grab 12 rebounds or hits that shot toward the end - we don't win.

I just can't sit here and say we won because Toni Kukoc hit a big 3. He helped get us back in the game but he's not the reason they won. Fred is exaggerating Toni's contributions to downgrade Pippen's performance.

If we don't have Scottie Pippen's defense in the 1998 NBA Finals the Jazz win the series. We can play that game all day.

 

[Fred]

Kush77 wrote:

Diddy1122 wrote:

Kush77 wrote:

Fred wrote:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199805310CHI.html

We lose this game 7 without Toni Kukoc and his 21 points. Scottie was bricking up 12 shots in this game, and Toni scored 21 on 11 shots. Check out that 3rd quarter. I'm just saying, if Toni is not on the Bulls, how do we possibly win that game? The Pacers win and go on to face the Jazz. Scottie had a tendancy to play keep away with Krause's boy Toni. I have no idea how Toni only got 11 shots in this game. In Game 5 against the Jazz, he scored 30 points on only 13 shots, or something ridiculous like that.

Why do you only point out Pippen having a bad game in Game 7. Everyone shot poorly in that game. But only Pippen's bad shooting effects the team? Jordan didn't shoot well. Neither did Harper or Longley.

So why is it that you only point out Pippen's bad shooting? Pippen came through with a big play when it counted. Luc Longley hit a big shot as well. That's what you like being a big fan of Craig Hodges. B)

Pippen led all rebounders with 12. That helped.

Everyone was collectively bad from the field that game & it was defense, bench, & offensive rebounds that gave us the victory. Including a couple big boards down the stretch by Jordan & Harper to help seal the deal. Pip had 6 offensive boards alone.

But I gotta agree with Fred here. Without Kukoc & Kerr hitting 3's to help us get back from 13 down, we don't win that game. The Zen Master even said so himself.

"Kukoc is the guy tonight who really stepped up big for us," Jackson said. "Without his contribution and Steve Kerr's open looks off the bench, we don't stay in this game."

Well then I guess we can say that about a lot of guys. If we didn't have Jordan - we don't win. If Pippen doesn't grab 12 rebounds or hits that shot toward the end - we don't win.

I just can't sit here and say we won because Toni Kukoc hit a big 3. He helped get us back in the game but he's not the reason they won. Fred is exaggerating Toni's contributions to downgrade Pippen's performance.

If we don't have Scottie Pippen's defense in the 1998 NBA Finals the Jazz win the series. We can play that game all day.

First of all, thanks Diddy, for that quote. I thought I was the only one giving Toni his proper due, but Phil did immediately after the game. I might have to get that tatooed to my bicep. All these years, and I've never seen that quote.

Secondly...Kush, I'll be damned if I let you tarnish the legacy of Craig Hodges for future generations. That guy was awesome, and he hit a ton of big shots in the late 80's and early 90's for Michae. One more snide remark about Craig, and I'll never refer to you again as a rich man's Othello Harrington.

Check this out...no wonder the Lakers are good:
http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/columns/story?id=5002714

 

[Kush77]

Craig Hodges hit a ton of "big" shots. Really? When?

So Scottie Pippen never had any clutch shots that you can remember but Craig Hodges has a ton.

I was too poor to have cable when I was a kid. Maybe all of his big shots were on SportsVision and I missed them. I never seen any on channel 32 or channel 9. :laugh:

 

[Shakes]

Someone has to say it: talking up Craig Hodges clutchness over Scottie Pippen is like talking up Kirk Hinrich feistiness over Ben Gordon.

 

[TheStig]

Shakes wrote:

Someone has to say it: talking up Craig Hodges clutchness over Scottie Pippen is like talking up Kirk Hinrich feistiness over Ben Gordon.

But he's just so feisty. How can anyone resist?

 

[Fred]

Kush77 wrote:

Craig Hodges hit a ton of "big" shots. Really? When?

So Scottie Pippen never had any clutch shots that you can remember but Craig Hodges has a ton.

I was too poor to have cable when I was a kid. Maybe all of his big shots were on SportsVision and I missed them. I never seen any on channel 32 or channel 9. :laugh:

In the 88-89 playoffs, Craig Hodges hit 35 3-pointers in 17 games, shooting 40% from the 3-point line. I distinctly remember watching the playoffs games against Detroit, on free tv, and thinking, "Hodges is giving MJ the spacing he needs." He was one of the only guys to show up.