Fred's Scottie Pippen hate

[Kush77]

Fred wrote:

Kush77 wrote:

Craig Hodges hit a ton of "big" shots. Really? When?

So Scottie Pippen never had any clutch shots that you can remember but Craig Hodges has a ton.

I was too poor to have cable when I was a kid. Maybe all of his big shots were on SportsVision and I missed them. I never seen any on channel 32 or channel 9. :laugh:

In the 88-89 playoffs, Craig Hodges hit 35 3-pointers in 17 games, shooting 40% from the 3-point line. I distinctly remember watching the playoffs games against Detroit, on free tv, and thinking, "Hodges is giving MJ the spacing he needs." He was one of the only guys to show up.

[file]

Yeah, Hodges was a 3-point specialist. He should hit 35 3s in 17 games. That's all he does, that was his job. I remember him hitting 3s, but not all of these big shots you're talking about.

In that same playoffs Scottie Pippen hit 22 3-pointers and shot .393% from 3. And he's not a 3-point specialist like Hodges.

 

[Diddy1122]

Fred wrote:

Kush77 wrote:

Craig Hodges hit a ton of "big" shots. Really? When?

So Scottie Pippen never had any clutch shots that you can remember but Craig Hodges has a ton.

I was too poor to have cable when I was a kid. Maybe all of his big shots were on SportsVision and I missed them. I never seen any on channel 32 or channel 9. :laugh:

In the 88-89 playoffs, Craig Hodges hit 35 3-pointers in 17 games, shooting 40% from the 3-point line. I distinctly remember watching the playoffs games against Detroit, on free tv, and thinking, "Hodges is giving MJ the spacing he needs." He was one of the only guys to show up.

Wasn't Sam Vincent the starter most of that season but then got replaced by Pax after getting injured & never got the spot back? I remember him sucking hard during the playoffs in what little time he did play. And I remember us trading one of my faves at the time, Ed Nealy, for this skinny guy who hits a bunch of 3's.

Hodges was killin' that year, probably his best year as a Bull. But Fred, more clutch than Pip, that's going a little far. Like Kush, I can't recall a single big shot by him outside of the 3pt contest. And clutch is not just offense. On D, I don't think there has ever been anyone more clutch than Pip.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Diddy brings up the excellent point of clutch defense. Clutch goes both ways, you can suck on offense, but be huge on the defensive end down the stretch. Pippen, Ben Wallace, and KG are some of those guys that come to mind. Fred, not that offense isn't important, but I think you undervalue defense sometimes.

 

[Shakes]

I think Ben Wallace goes beyond sucking on offense.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Ok Ben Wallace is like...negative points on the offensive end or something. He's the worst offensive player I've ever seen. However, he played some of the best defense I've ever seen in his prime. I don't think Ben Wallace could ever be relied on for shooting or clutch shooting or any offense at all. Fred, do you hate Ben Wallace too?

 

[Shakes]

Is there anyone who didn't hate Wallace at 4/60? He would have been a lot easier to love in his prime for 6 million a year like Detroit had though. :laugh:

 

[Kush77]

clonetrooper264 wrote:

Ok Ben Wallace is like...negative points on the offensive end or something. He's the worst offensive player I've ever seen.

For me that title goes to Tyson Chandler. Chandler has zero offensive skill.
When Ben Wallace took his fadeaway jumper, that went in 2 out of 10 times, he at least looked like he shot a basketball before. When Tyson Chandler made an offensive move, other than an alley-oop dunk, he looked like a guy playing with no hands.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Shakes wrote:

Is there anyone who didn't hate Wallace at 4/60? He would have been a lot easier to love in his prime for 6 million a year like Detroit had though. :laugh:

Well Wallace was in obvious decline when he had that deal. I'm going to go with his prime years at 6 million. If Fred says he doesn't like him at that price, I don't think I can take his Hinrich bashing seriously. :laugh:

 

[Fred]

clonetrooper264 wrote:

Diddy brings up the excellent point of clutch defense. Clutch goes both ways, you can suck on offense, but be huge on the defensive end down the stretch. Pippen, Ben Wallace, and KG are some of those guys that come to mind. Fred, not that offense isn't important, but I think you undervalue defense sometimes.

You can't compare clutch offense with clutch defense. When have 20,000 screaming fans effected someone's ability to shuffle from side to side, or box out on a defensive rebound, or reach for that steal? But I've seen it effect a free throw. Sure you can make a clutch play on the defensive end. But it's much easier to make a clutch defensive play than a clutch offensive play. In basketball, nervous energy WORKS for you on the defensive end...it HURTS you on the offensive end. Sweaty palms, nervousness, quicker heartbeat....unless you sh*t your pants, none of these common choke symptoms will hurt your defense. Great D is nothing more than a combination of athleticism, some intelligence, and want-to. All symptoms of choke will kill your ability to make big jumpers/free throws/lay ups/etc.

 

[Fred]

clonetrooper264 wrote:

Ok Ben Wallace is like...negative points on the offensive end or something. He's the worst offensive player I've ever seen. However, he played some of the best defense I've ever seen in his prime. I don't think Ben Wallace could ever be relied on for shooting or clutch shooting or any offense at all. Fred, do you hate Ben Wallace too?

I was not upset with the Ben Wallace signing. We had 3 solid offensive players at the time: Gordon, Deng, and Hinrich, who just finished the season averaging almost 16 points per game. I've always said that interior defense is much more important than perimeter defense. This has been proven time and time again, including in our recent skid of 12 games of allowing 100+ points, despite the fact that the greatest perimeter defender in the history of white Iowans (Hinrich) played in 11 of those losses. Obviously, Noah was more important to our defense.

Wallace, IMO, played great in year 1 (06-07). He brought exactly what I wanted..rebounding and defense. Few could have predicted his defensive deterioration, just as few could have predicted Kirk's offensive deterioration.

 

[Fred]

clonetrooper264 wrote:

Shakes wrote:

Is there anyone who didn't hate Wallace at 4/60? He would have been a lot easier to love in his prime for 6 million a year like Detroit had though. :laugh:

Well Wallace was in obvious decline when he had that deal. I'm going to go with his prime years at 6 million. If Fred says he doesn't like him at that price, I don't think I can take his Hinrich bashing seriously. :laugh:

Obvious decline? Didn't he just win a couple defensive player of the year awards when the deal was signed?

 

[clonetrooper264]

Fred wrote:

clonetrooper264 wrote:

Shakes wrote:

Is there anyone who didn't hate Wallace at 4/60? He would have been a lot easier to love in his prime for 6 million a year like Detroit had though. :laugh:

Well Wallace was in obvious decline when he had that deal. I'm going to go with his prime years at 6 million. If Fred says he doesn't like him at that price, I don't think I can take his Hinrich bashing seriously. :laugh:

Obvious decline? Didn't he just win a couple defensive player of the year awards when the deal was signed?

I was referring to all his years under that contract (that includes after his trade to the Cavs). After 06-07 he took a nosedive. Considering he was 33 or so at the time, I believe, it would be fairly ridiculous to expect him to keep winning DPOY awards year after year.

 

[TheStig]

Shakes wrote:

Is there anyone who didn't hate Wallace at 4/60? He would have been a lot easier to love in his prime for 6 million a year like Detroit had though. :laugh:

Gotta love JR. Only he can make signing a big fa into a salary dump. Coupled with that with the mind boggling pick of TT over a scoring pf and you end up with 07-08.

 

[Shakes]

I just want to say that it's funny how the "declining" Ben Wallace has magically turned back the clock this year now he's back in Detroit. I mean we knew he was declining when we signed him, but half his decline while he was here was him not giving a crap and only putting in an effort when he felt like it.

Fred likes to blame Kirk for getting Skiles fired, and some of that blame is fair. But Wallace dogged it. His rebound rate fell off a cliff (that he's magically recovered from now he's in Detroit) and he put up the worst offensive stats by a center since the league was a bunch of white guys with 5 inch verticals. Come on, if you're only scoring 5.6 points per 36 you can at least do better than shoot 37%!

Then when you add to it that Wallace was a cancer who undermined Skiles he has to take at least as much blame as Kirk.

 

[Diddy1122]

Shakes wrote:

I just want to say that it's funny how the "declining" Ben Wallace has magically turned back the clock this year now he's back in Detroit. I mean we knew he was declining when we signed him, but half his decline while he was here was him not giving a crap and only putting in an effort when he felt like it.

Fred likes to blame Kirk for getting Skiles fired, and some of that blame is fair. But Wallace dogged it. His rebound rate fell off a cliff (that he's magically recovered from now he's in Detroit) and he put up the worst offensive stats by a center since the league was a bunch of white guys with 5 inch verticals. Come on, if you're only scoring 5.6 points per 36 you can at least do better than shoot 37%!

Then when you add to it that Wallace was a cancer who undermined Skiles he has to take at least as much blame as Kirk.

Other than sucking offensively that year, Kirk had nothing to do with Skiles getting fired. It was Wallace, his lap dog Joe Smith, & to some extent Chris Duhon who were responsible for the locker room rift that sent Skiles on his way & had everyone thumbing their noses at Jim Ball-Boylan the rest of the season.

I never liked Wallace. Not even when he was a Bull. I understood the signing & it did improve us, for 1 year!, but my mind was made up on him when he started pouting a mere week into the season because he was benched due to headband-gate. It was a clear signal he cared more about propping up his ridiculously bad afro than playing team basketball. I still rooted for him since he was a Bull, but I could give 2 shits about what he's doing now.

 

[Dpauley23]

Diddy1122 wrote:

Shakes wrote:

I just want to say that it's funny how the "declining" Ben Wallace has magically turned back the clock this year now he's back in Detroit. I mean we knew he was declining when we signed him, but half his decline while he was here was him not giving a crap and only putting in an effort when he felt like it.

Fred likes to blame Kirk for getting Skiles fired, and some of that blame is fair. But Wallace dogged it. His rebound rate fell off a cliff (that he's magically recovered from now he's in Detroit) and he put up the worst offensive stats by a center since the league was a bunch of white guys with 5 inch verticals. Come on, if you're only scoring 5.6 points per 36 you can at least do better than shoot 37%!

Then when you add to it that Wallace was a cancer who undermined Skiles he has to take at least as much blame as Kirk.

Other than sucking offensively that year, Kirk had nothing to do with Skiles getting fired. It was Wallace, his lap dog Joe Smith, & to some extent Chris Duhon who were responsible for the locker room rift that sent Skiles on his way & had everyone thumbing their noses at Jim Ball-Boylan the rest of the season.

I never liked Wallace. Not even when he was a Bull. I understood the signing & it did improve us, for 1 year!, but my mind was made up on him when he started pouting a mere week into the season because he was benched due to headband-gate. It was a clear signal he cared more about propping up his ridiculously bad afro than playing team basketball. I still rooted for him since he was a Bull, but I could give 2 shits about what he's doing now.

Well if you listen to Sam he said it was all Wallace and Deng's fault. Deng really seems to more of prima donna than anyone other says. The Skiles firing, complaining about his shots, making quotes about the chemisty last year, and was happy when Gordon left

 

[Diddy1122]

Dpauley23 wrote:

Well if you listen to Sam he said it was all Wallace and Deng's fault. Deng really seems to more of prima donna than anyone other says. The Skiles firing, complaining about his shots, making quotes about the chemisty last year, and was happy when Gordon left

Not just Sam has said that, KC said it as well. But I don't remember Deng saying he was happy Gordon left. And the chemistry stuff I think he was talking about the beginning of the year, when we still had No Gooden & Cry-baby Hughes on the team. Not saying he isn't a prima donna, but the writing does seem to be on the wall.

 

[Kush77]

Shakes wrote:

I just want to say that it's funny how the "declining" Ben Wallace has magically turned back the clock this year now he's back in Detroit. I mean we knew he was declining when we signed him, but half his decline while he was here was him not giving a crap and only putting in an effort when he felt like it.

Fred likes to blame Kirk for getting Skiles fired, and some of that blame is fair. But Wallace dogged it. His rebound rate fell off a cliff (that he's magically recovered from now he's in Detroit) and he put up the worst offensive stats by a center since the league was a bunch of white guys with 5 inch verticals. Come on, if you're only scoring 5.6 points per 36 you can at least do better than shoot 37%!

Then when you add to it that Wallace was a cancer who undermined Skiles he has to take at least as much blame as Kirk.

I agree with this 100%

Ben Wallace just quit. When you looked at the guy physically, there was no reason to think the decline would be so rapid. It's not like he blew up like Shawn Kemp.

I remember saying on my podcast when he signed that the age thing wasn't a big deal because guys like Rodman, Malon and Barkley rebounded very well into their mid-30s. And Ben Wallace looked to be in fine shape. A lot better than Barkley.

He just quit playing for the Bulls and Skiles. Then Boylan allows a quitting bum like Wallace to suspend a player in noah. Makes no sense.