Gordon could be gone in a flash

[Dpauley23]

NO I never said that. He did help them turn that franchise around. Look at all of those people you've mentioned that all have been overpaid and Gordon was the only one stupid enough to turn it down.

 

[dougthonus]

And we won't get there either, when we are letting out best player walk for nothing. But that's probably what JR wants. A mediocre team that will make it into the playoffs as a 4-8 seed every year, so he can get that extra playoff revenue, while never having to commit to paying the tax.

The idea that Reinsdorf doesn't want to win badly is ridiculous. He banked probably a billion dollars due to the titles we won in the Jordan era.

It's just that he doesn't want to get into a situation where he's paying the tax and the team is still a 4-8 seed with no real chance to win, and the Bulls haven't played at a level where keeping Gordon is likely going to elevate them above that level, so he won't pay the tax for it.

If it was guaranteed that keeping Gordon got us an extra round of playoffs then he would pay the tax, because it would pay for itself, but I don't think Reinsdorf thinks that, and looking at this team, I think that's perfectly reasonable.

Don't get me wrong, I think losing Gordon will hurt. He's one of my favorite players, I think he's often disrespected somewhat in the media because in the guide they hand out to broadcasters it probably says "Explosive scorer, who's better as a 6th man, can't play defense and is short", but I think people take it way too far when they start making assumptions about how JR doesn't want to win.

Winning breeds money, and no one knows that better than Reinsdorf, but he has to know the team can really win.

 

[dougthonus]

As a side note, I think you're all wrong on Gordon.

Paxson offered Gordon a fair deal. Paxson's MO in negotiations has always been to offer his guy a fair deal first. I don't think it was under/overpaid. 50 million was a fair deal for Gordon 2 years ago. The offer he had this past summer was fair too.

If the Bulls are able to make an offer this coming summer then I think it will also be what the Paxson considers fair.

 

[Fred]

dougthonus wrote:

The idea that Reinsdorf doesn't want to win badly is ridiculous. He banked probably a billion dollars due to the titles we won in the Jordan era.

Doug, do you really believe that Reinsdorf would rather win a championship and make 1 million, or finish 4th and make 30 million? He would rather take the 30 million. It's why he didn't try harder to bring Jordan back. Jordan admitted he was insulted by him when he signed his last contract, and Jerry muttered, "I might live to regret this."

 

[dougthonus]

Doug, do you really believe that Reinsdorf would rather win a championship and make 1 million, or finish 4th and make 30 million? He would rather take the 30 million. It's why he didn't try harder to bring Jordan back. Jordan admitted he was insulted by him when he signed his last contract, and Jerry muttered, "I might live to regret this."

I think Reinsdorf realizes that winning promotes financial growth. For each round of the playoffs the Bulls go deeper they probably make an additional 10-15 million in revenue. I think if Reinsdorf was convinced that Gordon meant the difference between round 1 and round 2 in the playoffs next year that he would pay the tax.

 

[Dpauley23]

The think that pisses me off about Reinsdorf is he builds White Soxs brand new facility out of his own pocket, but can't muster up 4 million to keep Gordon

 

[Fred]

dougthonus wrote:

Paxson offered Gordon a fair deal. Paxson's MO in negotiations has always been to offer his guy a fair deal first. I don't think it was under/overpaid. 50 million was a fair deal for Gordon 2 years ago. The offer he had this past summer was fair too.

If the Bulls are able to make an offer this coming summer then I think it will also be what the Paxson considers fair.

They offered Deng more money. Anyone, in their job, would be insulted if an inferior co-worker was offered more money during contract negotiations taking place at the exact same time. Gordon felt he was better, and he deserved more than Deng. And he was right.
Just because the economy fell apart, doesn't make his decision wrong.

Just pretend that you spent 5 years building a house. You are continually presented with offers below what other houses in the area are selling for, even though you believe that your house is better. And you turned down every offer.

And then a meteor hits your house. Did you make a bad decision? No. You had no control over that meteor. You'll rebuild it, and hopefully sell it again.

 

[Dpauley23]

Deng was more valuable at the time to the team. It doesn't mean that he was better, but he was more valuable. He was the only way they could get their pressing need: a big man

 

[dougthonus]

They offered Deng more money. Anyone, in their job, would be insulted if an inferior co-worker was offered more money during contract negotiations taking place at the exact same time. Gordon felt he was better, and he deserved more than Deng. And he was right.
Just because the economy fell apart, doesn't make his decision wrong.

Just pretend that you spend 5 years building a house. You are continually presented with offers below what other houses in the area are selling for, even though you believe that your house is better. And you turned down every offer.

And then a meteor hits your house. Did you make a bad decision? No. You had no control over that meteor. You'll rebuild it, and hopefully sell it again.

Gordon changed his mind and wanted to take the Bulls deal. It's his own poor decision making for not taking it by the deadline. It's the Bulls poor decision making for not extending the deadline.

Gordon will have ended up spiting himself in this whole situation over his personal feelings on a business decision. He'll make less money while incurring significant risk.

Gordon's only had 2 very good years in the NBA. This year, and his 3rd year. If this year was a bad year, he would have been at the MLE. To his credit, he made this year a great year, and so the risk may pay off for him, and by paying off, I mean he may make as much as he would have if he took either of the two deals he previous rejected.

If the economy hadn't tanked and Gordon put up an 08/09 like his 07/08, 05/06, or 04/05 year then he would have made less than the Bulls offered even in a healthy economy. That didn't happen though, he had a great year, good work for him.

 

[TheStig]

I'm not entirely convinced BG is going to make significantly less. He was offered 6/54. He made 6.4 mill this year. If he gets 47.6, he will come out even. I think the worst offer the bulls make is 6/50. If thats the case he only really lost about 5 mill since his QO is very close to the starting salary. And thats mainly due to a bad economy. If we still had a good economy, it would be boozer and him as the main options. Sure 10% isn't good to lose but its not the end of the world with someone who will clear at least 50 mill in his playing career.

 

[dougthonus]

They offered Deng more money. Anyone, in their job, would be insulted if an inferior co-worker was offered more money during contract negotiations taking place at the exact same time. Gordon felt he was better, and he deserved more than Deng. And he was right.
Just because the economy fell apart, doesn't make his decision wrong.

Just pretend that you spent 5 years building a house. You are continually presented with offers below what other houses in the area are selling for, even though you believe that your house is better. And you turned down every offer.

And then a meteor hits your house. Did you make a bad decision? No. You had no control over that meteor. You'll rebuild it, and hopefully sell it again.

Deng wasn't inferior until this year.

Deng was better in 07/08 than Gordon, better in 05/06, and arguably as good in 06/07.

 

[TheStig]

dougthonus wrote:

They offered Deng more money. Anyone, in their job, would be insulted if an inferior co-worker was offered more money during contract negotiations taking place at the exact same time. Gordon felt he was better, and he deserved more than Deng. And he was right.
Just because the economy fell apart, doesn't make his decision wrong.

Just pretend that you spent 5 years building a house. You are continually presented with offers below what other houses in the area are selling for, even though you believe that your house is better. And you turned down every offer.

And then a meteor hits your house. Did you make a bad decision? No. You had no control over that meteor. You'll rebuild it, and hopefully sell it again.

Deng wasn't inferior until this year.

Deng was better in 07/08 than Gordon, better in 05/06, and arguably as good in 06/07.

I think he is trying to make the point that Deng is better stat wise and all around but BG was more crucial to the teams success. BG was our closer and #1 offensive option, whether he should have been or not.

 

[Kush77]

I disagree with you DT. I don't think Jerry Reinsdorf cares about winning. I'm sure he doesn't mind it when it happens, but he's all about money first, winning second.

At the end of the day this is the same guy who let the greatest player ever walk away. If he cared about winning he wouldn't have allowed the Bulls to break up after the 1998 season because they would have won it in 1999. But ya know, gotta get the Tim Floyd era started.
That was all about money.

Money vs. the 1999 NBA championship. JR didn't want to pay Phil, MJ or give Pippen a new deal. He made a killing, like you said, during the title years. And when it came time to possible spend some of it, he let the team get dismantled. Still made a ton of money during the bad years because the suites were still sold, they had the radio deal with ESPN locked in for like 5 more years. And on top of that, the payroll was nothing.

Jerry Reinsdorf is scum in my opinion. He doesn't care about winning, just money. People can bash guy like Cuban and Steinbrenner, but at least they put back into the team and care about winning.

 

[PJ Brown]

Dpauley23 wrote:

Where did you this crap about Paxson admitted he gave Gorden under market value contract? From what I've heard Paxson felt he was overpaying Gordon and was betrayed by him declining the offer

Perhaps I chose the wrong words in "market value," but my point is that no other team was anywhere near the Bulls offer for Gordon. That's how I perceive someone's market value. It is true, however, that if you compare Gordon's worth to other peeople with his stats, etc, then the deal could be argued to be under market value, perhaps greatly so. I'm more of the mind that you're worth what someone is willing to pay you, at least in practice. Adding it up, I think Bulls' offers were both fair and that Ben should have taken them, which is not to say the JR's pig-headedness hasn't been counterproductive, as it has. If the owner was more interested in keeping Gordon, I think Paxson and Gordon would've made a deal already.

I certainly hope Gordon stays, but I'd also hope we recall the whole history of negotiations, in which both the player and the team have probably made foolish decisions.

 

[??? ??????]

PJ Brown wrote:

Dpauley23 wrote:

Where did you this crap about Paxson admitted he gave Gorden under market value contract? From what I've heard Paxson felt he was overpaying Gordon and was betrayed by him declining the offer

Perhaps I chose the wrong words in "market value," but my point is that no other team was anywhere near the Bulls offer for Gordon. That's how I perceive someone's market value. It is true, however, that if you compare Gordon's worth to other peeople with his stats, etc, then the deal could be argued to be under market value, perhaps greatly so. I'm more of the mind that you're worth what someone is willing to pay you, at least in practice. Adding it up, I think Bulls' offers were both fair and that Ben should have taken them, which is not to say the JR's pig-headedness hasn't been counterproductive, as it has. If the owner was more interested in keeping Gordon, I think Paxson and Gordon would've made a deal already.

I certainly hope Gordon stays, but I'd also hope we recall the whole history of negotiations, in which both the player and the team have probably made foolish decisions.

It depends how you define what a guy is worth. Are we talking about the amount that a team with capspace was willing to pay? If we're including sign and trade offers, then Gordon was likely getting offered much more by the Heat and Knicks than what the Bulls were offering, as he seemed content with going through with those trades, as there wouldn't be a firm sign and trade offer (Marion/Marbury) if Gordon wasn't ready to agree to those team's contract terms.

Everything I said at the moment that Gordon signed the QO in my thoughts on Gordon taking the QO is ringing right now.

I think it's about time that the Chicago media starts getting cleaned out. That includes in particular the newspapers and radio. It's time for the newspapers to start showing a loyalty to the truth and citizens (in this case the fans), and for the radio guys to actually have some knowledge about what is going on with the team.

 

[PJ Brown]

Yeah, it is certainly frustrating that most of the sportswriters and radio personalities in town know so much less about the team and the league than the majority of the members of this board. I don't think, however, that is a problem unique to the Chicago media. Truth and authority simply aren't priorities they used to be in the media and culture as a whole. We see it time and time again, when national papers treat random trade "speculation" as headline "rumors." Thankfully, since we aren't going to answers from the so-called experts, we have the true people in the know to talk with right here on Bullspodcasters!

 

[clonetrooper264]

The people in the media covering Chicago sports obviously don't watch a lot of Bulls basketball. They clearly aren't informed of what's going on on the court and have opinions that reflect those of drones. That's why we have these podcasts to tell us what's really going on.

 

[Shakes]

I don't buy the whole idea that Reinsdorf just wants to make tons of money and doesn't care about winning. If you want to make tons of money, buying a sports team is a really stupid way to do it. Look at the figures, the return on investment for sports teams is pretty crap compared to where else you could invest the money. You buy a sports team because you want a sports team, not to get rich(er).

I think Reinsdorf wants to win, but he's also not willing to just throw money away to do it. You don't get to the position to be able to afford a sports team by being the type to flush money down the drain. He's not going to pay luxury tax just to win a few more games. He probably would to win a championship. The complication comes in when you ask where the line is drawn, and if paying the luxury tax may help win a championship down the line.

I'd like to keep Ben Gordon, but I also think paying above market for him would have been stupid. It doesn't really matter whether you think, or I think, or a sports writer thinks that Ben Gordon is a better player than Luol Deng or Kirk Hinrich. What matters is whether other teams are willing to pay him that much money. Paying more than the market dictates is stupid on two fronts, firstly you up your payroll for no good reason, and secondly you end up with a contract that the market has already shown no other team wants.

Unfortunately for Gordon's sake it seems his perceived value is less than his real value. The "short sixth man who doesn't play D" thing seems to have stuck. He's just going to have to deal with it and accept less money. Hopefully from Chicago, but I doubt we'll do it given the tax.

 

[Kush77]

Shakes wrote:

I don't buy the whole idea that Reinsdorf just wants to make tons of money and doesn't care about winning. If you want to make tons of money, buying a sports team is a really stupid way to do it. Look at the figures, the return on investment for sports teams is pretty crap compared to where else you could invest the money. You buy a sports team because you want a sports team, not to get rich(er).

I think Reinsdorf wants to win, but he's also not willing to just throw money away to do it. You don't get to the position to be able to afford a sports team by being the type to flush money down the drain. He's not going to pay luxury tax just to win a few more games. He probably would to win a championship. The complication comes in when you ask where the line is drawn, and if paying the luxury tax may help win a championship down the line.

I'd like to keep Ben Gordon, but I also think paying above market for him would have been stupid. It doesn't really matter whether you think, or I think, or a sports writer thinks that Ben Gordon is a better player than Luol Deng or Kirk Hinrich. What matters is whether other teams are willing to pay him that much money. Paying more than the market dictates is stupid on two fronts, firstly you up your payroll for no good reason, and secondly you end up with a contract that the market has already shown no other team wants.

Unfortunately for Gordon's sake it seems his perceived value is less than his real value. The "short sixth man who doesn't play D" thing seems to have stuck. He's just going to have to deal with it and accept less money. Hopefully from Chicago, but I doubt we'll do it given the tax.

I agree that buying a sports team is not the best way to make money. But a lot of cheap business men do it. Maybe it's a prestige thing? "I own a sports franchise" who knows. I don't think Reinsdorf doesn't care about winning. If he did, he would of kept the Bulls together 10 years ago.

Not that I haven't gotten over that, I have. But that is the perfect example. That was a championship caliber team, he allowed it to be broken up. How can you say he cares about winning then? See what I mean?

As for the guys talking about the media drones. There are some guys in the local media that know about the Bulls. But for the most part, when it comes to sports talk radio, NBA is the bastard child. Unless you're dealing with basketball-specific personalities. I know this from experience. I worked in sports radio for 5 years. You'd be amazed how little talk show host care about the NBA. I was definitely in the minority during those years working there.

 

[PJ Brown]

Oh, I think Jerry wants to win, but I don't think he wants to win at all cost. On a list of cheap sports owners, I'd but him somewhere in the middle--he's not a cheapskate, but he has his limits. It also seems that in this case, he just has something against giving Gordon in specific the big bucks. He was happy to pay the other guys.