How do we incorperate Deng into our offense

pinkizdead

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Everyone says that he's a system player, but it might be he's a skiles player. Skiles helped the bulls play beyond their abilities. Maybe that's the problem with deng.

i see 3 apparent stances on the issue

VDN's offense sucks. However one could argue that Deng needs a system offense, and the current system is ill suited for him. I think we can all agree with that, but the problem becomes how can we fix it?

Deng sucks. you could argue deng sucks. one possible argument for this is that few teams if any would take on his contract. he lost a step, he was playing beyond his abilities in the years previous to now, and he simply cant get back into that groove.

Rose is a rookie. he cant find the appropriate spots where deng can score easily. Derrick is just a rookie


Although i think there is an element of truth in all of those statements. Unlike gordon, deng has trouble creating for himself. he takes terrible contested shots. He's built of glass, so he might not be able to practice as much as everyone else.
Shooting the 3 has never been Luol's strong point. VDN has asked him to do that rather consistently, and yet he hasnt been able to produce. something has to change. Without gordon and salmons on the wings, Deng is starting to look like pargo.

how do we fix it? the only solution i have is
start hinrich and salmons and move deng to the 4? he's still built on glass, but he miht be a better fit for the offense as a 4.
our depth will be pretty deep at 4 and 5 at the point. With tyrus, taj, miller, and noah. We'd have lots of back up guard minutes. we might look into signing another guard.
 

??? ??????

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You don't build an offensive system around as poor of an offensive player as Deng.

I think it just comes down to Luol Deng not being that good. He had one year where he was an elite jumpshooter from midrange, and that was it. Ever since he started hitting that midrange jumpshot at a lower clip, he has been an inefficient scorer.
 

JimmyBulls

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I think this team will struggle if VDN doesn't come to the realization that Deng is probably the most important player on this team. Rose and Salmons can create their own offense, so they're not players that Vinny have to worry about, but Deng is a system player. He is for better or worst, the one guy whose strengths and weakness' can not be ignored, and if you do you do it at the expense of team success. Most fans know the shortcomings when it involves Deng's skill set, but I question whether or not VDN understands it.

That being said, I don't think it would be premature for the Bulls organization to seriously consider getting out of Deng's deal asap.
 

jsain360

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I love Deng as a player, but just like most Duke players they are fit for a system, look at the careers of most Duke players, coach K doesn't produce stars, his best players he has produced are Grant Hill and Elton Brand, Deng is suited for and offense that utilizes ball movement and cutting, a team that runs motion offense or the Triangle might fit Deng, I don't think the Pick'n'Roll fits Deng, most of VDN's pick'n'rolls involve the PG and the 4 or 5, VDN could try running the pick'n'roll w/ Deng or maybe post up Deng, he did play in the post at Duke.
 

TheStig

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Is Scott Skilies coming back to town? That is the only way that Deng gets a role deserving of his deal. The best thing we can do is try to punp his value and trade him at the deadline for an expiring. That should be his role in this franchise.
 

Fred

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Interesting article ranking the top small forwards in the NBA. Salmons got an honorable mention. Deng is not mentioned. One thing you'll notice about the list....every single player on that list can break a guy down one on one. Luol Deng is a great guy, a nice shooter...but he can't break someone down one on one to save his life. That's a sad comment when you consider how strong the position is in the NBA.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2244043/top_nba_small_forwards_200910.html?cat=14
 

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I don't think Vinny can comprehend a motion offense let alone the triangle :p But I do agree that such an offense would help Deng a lot since his strength is cutting to the basket and doing other off the ball stuff. Clearly in the offense we have now he is at a disadvantage because quite frankly, I don't think he could score on me one on one (though this is an exaggeration because he is more than a foot taller than I am, but that's besides the point) and that is a big part of what Vinny calls an offense.
 

Diddy1122

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jsain360 wrote:
I love Deng as a player, but just like most Duke players they are fit for a system, look at the careers of most Duke players, coach K doesn't produce stars, his best players he has produced are Grant Hill and Elton Brand, Deng is suited for and offense that utilizes ball movement and cutting, a team that runs motion offense or the Triangle might fit Deng, I don't think the Pick'n'Roll fits Deng, most of VDN's pick'n'rolls involve the PG and the 4 or 5, VDN could try running the pick'n'roll w/ Deng or maybe post up Deng, he did play in the post at Duke.

Agree 100%. I've been saying this for years now. However, if Deng stays healthy & runs the floor with Rose, I think he'll find his points. It's a matter of his star PG knowing where he likes the ball. A great PG will always make his teammates better. Last season those two were never in sync, it was obvious from day 1. I attribute alot of this to Rose being a rookie & the Bulls really having no offensive system other than pick n roll w/ Rose & iso Gordon. With Vinny pairing down his system, which is what we've heard, there should be more opportunities for Deng. But Vinny needs to understand that this is a player that NEEDS plays called for him because he couldn't even take the "Where's the beef?" lady off the dribble when she was alive.

But Lu added more weight which leads me to believe that Vinny plans on using him in the post to get him more scoring opportunities. How effective that will be is anybody's guess. One thing is certain in my mind, if Deng sucks this year, we'll be fighting for the 8th spot & 41 wins.
 

Fred

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Diddy1122 wrote:
jsain360 wrote:
But Lu added more weight which leads me to believe that Vinny plans on using him in the post to get him more scoring opportunities. How effective that will be is anybody's guess. One thing is certain in my mind, if Deng sucks this year, we'll be fighting for the 8th spot & 41 wins.

Unfortunately, I agree with you on this point. It was obvious before the disasterous 07-08 season, that someone told Luol to spend his offseason working on his post game. It's terrible advice. In order to be a solid post player, you need some girth / strength to keep the defender on your back in order to create some space for an entry pass. (Or you need to be able to back down a defender with the dribble...something Deng can't do.) In previous years, Deng was a disaster in the post because he couldn't keep the defender from tipping the entry pass. Turnovers were often the result of Deng post attempts, and it always made the player making the pass look bad, when in reality it was Deng's inability to keep the defender on his back and away from the ball. (I remember this happened several times in a loss at Dallas last year.)

He's probably added mass to help with this problem. Either way, he would be better off developing a 3-point shot. Rose doesn't need Deng clogging up the lane in the post. He needs him to extend the defense.
 

TheStig

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Like Fred said, Deng needs to stretch the floor to not be a liability in this system. We need to create driving lanes for Rose and Salmons to get to the basket. With Deng at the top of the key or off to side a bit, his defender is very close to help on drives. Right now, Deng closes down the offense we ran last off season. If Deng can become a consistent 35+% 3 pt shooter, he will be tolerable.
 

Diddy1122

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Fred wrote:
Diddy1122 wrote:
jsain360 wrote:
But Lu added more weight which leads me to believe that Vinny plans on using him in the post to get him more scoring opportunities. How effective that will be is anybody's guess. One thing is certain in my mind, if Deng sucks this year, we'll be fighting for the 8th spot & 41 wins.

Unfortunately, I agree with you on this point. It was obvious before the disasterous 07-08 season, that someone told Luol to spend his offseason working on his post game. It's terrible advice. In order to be a solid post player, you need some girth / strength to keep the defender on your back in order to create some space for an entry pass. (Or you need to be able to back down a defender with the dribble...something Deng can't do.) In previous years, Deng was a disaster in the post because he couldn't keep the defender from tipping the entry pass. Turnovers were often the result of Deng post attempts, and it always made the player making the pass look bad, when in reality it was Deng's inability to keep the defender on his back and away from the ball. (I remember this happened several times in a loss at Dallas last year.)

He's probably added mass to help with this problem. Either way, he would be better off developing a 3-point shot. Rose doesn't need Deng clogging up the lane in the post. He needs him to extend the defense.

I agree, he needs a 3. I mean he shoots literally a 1/2 of a step away from the line when he's hoisting his flat-footed shots anyway. And, sadly, this is why I wished we got the other guy from Phoenix, yes, Mike D'Antoni. Instead we got Cachi. Lots of people think D'Antoni's overrated because of Steve Nash, I personally don't but I'm certain his ESTABLISHED OFFENSIVE SYSTEM would have been a perfect fit for our young, athletic squad. And I would attempt to turn Deng into Marion's role, the slasher & spot up shooter with 3pt range. With our currently "constructed" offensive system, and after witnessing his uninspiring preseason play within it, I'm not setting high expectations for Deng this year.
 

jsain360

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Diddy1122 wrote:
Fred wrote:
Diddy1122 wrote:
jsain360 wrote:
But Lu added more weight which leads me to believe that Vinny plans on using him in the post to get him more scoring opportunities. How effective that will be is anybody's guess. One thing is certain in my mind, if Deng sucks this year, we'll be fighting for the 8th spot & 41 wins.

Unfortunately, I agree with you on this point. It was obvious before the disasterous 07-08 season, that someone told Luol to spend his offseason working on his post game. It's terrible advice. In order to be a solid post player, you need some girth / strength to keep the defender on your back in order to create some space for an entry pass. (Or you need to be able to back down a defender with the dribble...something Deng can't do.) In previous years, Deng was a disaster in the post because he couldn't keep the defender from tipping the entry pass. Turnovers were often the result of Deng post attempts, and it always made the player making the pass look bad, when in reality it was Deng's inability to keep the defender on his back and away from the ball. (I remember this happened several times in a loss at Dallas last year.)

He's probably added mass to help with this problem. Either way, he would be better off developing a 3-point shot. Rose doesn't need Deng clogging up the lane in the post. He needs him to extend the defense.

I agree, he needs a 3. I mean he shoots literally a 1/2 of a step away from the line when he's hoisting his flat-footed shots anyway. And, sadly, this is why I wished we got the other guy from Phoenix, yes, Mike D'Antoni. Instead we got Cachi. Lots of people think D'Antoni's overrated because of Steve Nash, I personally don't but I'm certain his ESTABLISHED OFFENSIVE SYSTEM would have been a perfect fit for our young, athletic squad. And I would attempt to turn Deng into Marion's role, the slasher & spot up shooter with 3pt range. With our currently "constructed" offensive system, and after witnessing his uninspiring preseason play within it, I'm not setting high expectations for Deng this year.

I thought that myself, w/ D'antoni he would've been the perfect coach, especially w/ the Bulls personel, screw the defensive philosophy, with D'Antoni you bring an assistant coach that specializes in D
 

JimmyBulls

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I would love to see Deng operate in the Princton offense. That's the type of offense that would be perfect for Deng, but it wouldn't take from the creativity of Rose or Salmons.

The Bulls should fire Vinny, and sign John Thompson III away from Georgetown. Just kidding, not really.
 

jsain360

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Fred wrote:
Interesting article ranking the top small forwards in the NBA. Salmons got an honorable mention. Deng is not mentioned. One thing you'll notice about the list....every single player on that list can break a guy down one on one. Luol Deng is a great guy, a nice shooter...but he can't break someone down one on one to save his life. That's a sad comment when you consider how strong the position is in the NBA.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2244043/top_nba_small_forwards_200910.html?cat=14

Shawn Marion is one of best SF in the game and he can't break anybody down of the dribble.
 

jsain360

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Fred wrote:
Interesting article ranking the top small forwards in the NBA. Salmons got an honorable mention. Deng is not mentioned. One thing you'll notice about the list....every single player on that list can break a guy down one on one. Luol Deng is a great guy, a nice shooter...but he can't break someone down one on one to save his life. That's a sad comment when you consider how strong the position is in the NBA.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2244043/top_nba_small_forwards_200910.html?cat=14

I don't think Deng will be a 35% 3pt shooter, IMO the 3pt line is over used and abused, if he can hit the 3 like Mike, Barkley, Kidd, Horry (not great 3pt shooters), but they hit them crunch time. As long as he can knock 'em down in the clutch.
 

pinkizdead

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jsain360 wrote:
Fred wrote:
Interesting article ranking the top small forwards in the NBA. Salmons got an honorable mention. Deng is not mentioned. One thing you'll notice about the list....every single player on that list can break a guy down one on one. Luol Deng is a great guy, a nice shooter...but he can't break someone down one on one to save his life. That's a sad comment when you consider how strong the position is in the NBA.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2244043/top_nba_small_forwards_200910.html?cat=14

Shawn Marion is one of best SF in the game and he can't break anybody down of the dribble.
no he isnt.
he was better at pf in phoenix. he could beat pf's on the dribble.
as a sf, he's a defensive player who doesn't score very well.
 

engies

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pinkizdead wrote:
jsain360 wrote:
Fred wrote:
Interesting article ranking the top small forwards in the NBA. Salmons got an honorable mention. Deng is not mentioned. One thing you'll notice about the list....every single player on that list can break a guy down one on one. Luol Deng is a great guy, a nice shooter...but he can't break someone down one on one to save his life. That's a sad comment when you consider how strong the position is in the NBA.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2244043/top_nba_small_forwards_200910.html?cat=14

Shawn Marion is one of best SF in the game and he can't break anybody down of the dribble.
no he isnt.
he was better at pf in phoenix. he could beat pf's on the dribble.
as a sf, he's a defensive player who doesn't score very well.

I heard he's doing well in Dallas
 

engies

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Whether we like it or not, we are stuck with Deng, well at least until he plays better and we could trade him. The thing is we can all sit there and say the onus is on Deng to perform better. Its partially true, but I think everyone knew Deng was a system player, even during his break out season. So I think the team and the coach does have a responsibility to play Deng in that system and play to his strengths to make it worthwhile, or at least build his trade value.

Rose and Salmons can create on there own. and im sure we dont need deng clogging the lane with cutting every play, but we could run at least some of those for him. VDN needs to watch tapes of 06-07 and see how Skiles played Deng. maybe make Rose and everyone else watch so they know where to feed it to him. Otherwise we'll have an average player on a 70 mill contract for another 5 years
 

pinkizdead

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engies wrote:
pinkizdead wrote:
jsain360 wrote:
Fred wrote:
Interesting article ranking the top small forwards in the NBA. Salmons got an honorable mention. Deng is not mentioned. One thing you'll notice about the list....every single player on that list can break a guy down one on one. Luol Deng is a great guy, a nice shooter...but he can't break someone down one on one to save his life. That's a sad comment when you consider how strong the position is in the NBA.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2244043/top_nba_small_forwards_200910.html?cat=14

Shawn Marion is one of best SF in the game and he can't break anybody down of the dribble.
no he isnt.
he was better at pf in phoenix. he could beat pf's on the dribble.
as a sf, he's a defensive player who doesn't score very well.

I heard he's doing well in Dallas
and noah and tyrus are recording double doubles.
 

jsain360

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pinkizdead wrote:
engies wrote:
pinkizdead wrote:
jsain360 wrote:
Fred wrote:
Interesting article ranking the top small forwards in the NBA. Salmons got an honorable mention. Deng is not mentioned. One thing you'll notice about the list....every single player on that list can break a guy down one on one. Luol Deng is a great guy, a nice shooter...but he can't break someone down one on one to save his life. That's a sad comment when you consider how strong the position is in the NBA.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2244043/top_nba_small_forwards_200910.html?cat=14

Shawn Marion is one of best SF in the game and he can't break anybody down of the dribble.
no he isnt.
he was better at pf in phoenix. he could beat pf's on the dribble.
as a sf, he's a defensive player who doesn't score very well.

I heard he's doing well in Dallas
and noah and tyrus are recording double doubles.

People don't realize the key to Marion's suscess was playing w/ great point gaurds, his can't excell w/o one, he struggled to put up numbers w/ the Heat and Raptors, they don't have great PG's, Marion has played w/ Kidd, Marbury, and Nash, and those 3 players need to get a percentage of his contract, those 3 got him a nice payday.
 

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