I know it's MJ's day, but...

[Diddy1122]

...Where's the love for John Stockton, David Robinson, & Jerry Sloan? They've been lost in the frenzy over MJ's induction.

After the Bulls, the Jazz are my 2nd favorite team & Stockton is one of my all-time favorite players. He wasn't particularly quick or athletic, but he played the game smart & with tons of heart & passion. All-time assists & steals leader, who wrote the book on how to execute the pick & roll to perfection. An Ironman, who only missed 22 games in a 19 year career. It's a shame he never won a ring but that's what happened to most of the 90's stars thanks to one Michael Jeffrey Jordan.

David Robinson is one of the greatest NBA centers ever, imho. If it weren't for his horrible back & knee problems, I feel he could have gone down as the greatest center ever. And to top it all off, the Admiral was a model citizen & role model who served his country in the Navy & gave back to the community any chance he could.

Jerry Sloan reserves a special place in my heart, not just because he's one of the best Bulls ever, but he is far & away the best coach ever in my mind. I love Phil, but he's never had some of teams Sloan has. No one but Sloan could lead a Malone/Stockton-less Jazz with AK-47 as his star to a 42 win season. He led the Jazz to 16 straight winning seasons, 19 total playoff apperances, 12 50+ win seasons, & has spent 21 seasons at the helm, the longest in any major sport. I still boggles my mind that he's never won Coach of the Year or a championship. He's the epitomy of the phrase "Always a bridesmaid never a bride."

 

[clonetrooper264]

I agree. Stockton, Sloan, and Robinson all were great players. In Sloan's case he's an amazing coach too. The man deserves a ring. Actually all of them do. Give the men some props, they deserve it.

 

[mlewinth]

I agree Robinson, Sloan, Stockton (and who was the other person? I didn't know woman played basketball).....all deserve their respect. But the lack of attention is deserved. They are all blips on the radar compared to MJ. Stockton and Robinson were stars, there are always stars in the leauge, we will see many more stars in our lives, there are many players in the leauge right now as good or better as those 2. Jordan transcended the game, he was an icon, he was the best of the best. 50 years from now, people will remember Michael Jordan, like they remember Babe Ruth. Could you tell me more than 1 or 2 players who even played in the same era as Ruth? Let's see how many outside of San Antonito and Utah are talking about Stockton and Robinson.

To say Sloan is better than Jackson? Ooook. He coached in Utah for a long time. Utah hasnt fired him. He had some amazing teams for a decade with Stockton and Malone. He has some amazing teams now. If you ask me, the Jazz right now are underachieving. They are much, much more talanted than a 8th seed. Now they had alot of injuries this year, but they havent been a top team in the west since the late 90's yet have had some of the best talent in the west the last 4 years or so. Sloan has never won a championship, or a coach of the year award. I respect the 42 win season after loosing Stockton and Malone, but if thats so special, let's give Skiles an award for bringing a 30 win team to a 47 win team in 04. Sloan is a very good coach, but his long career in Utah is what makes him special. Don't praise Sloan, priase the managment in Utah for keeping him so long.

MICHAEL JORDAN YOU ARE A GOD

 

[Diddy1122]

mlewinth wrote:

I agree Robinson, Sloan, Stockton (and who was the other person? I didn't know woman played basketball).....all deserve their respect. But the lack of attention is deserved. They are all blips on the radar compared to MJ. Stockton and Robinson were stars, there are always stars in the leauge, we will see many more stars in our lives, there are many players in the leauge right now as good or better as those 2. Jordan transcended the game, he was an icon, he was the best of the best. 50 years from now, people will remember Michael Jordan, like they remember Babe Ruth. Could you tell me more than 1 or 2 players who even played in the same era as Ruth? Let's see how many outside of San Antonito and Utah are talking about Stockton and Robinson.

Woah woah woah Mark. Blips on the radar? Stockton holds 2 NBA records for cryin' out loud! Robinson was one of the best post defenders in the history of the NBA. These guys are not blips on the radar in the NBA. I'm sorry you're just flat out wrong there my friend.

People will remember Stockton, maybe Robinson not as much, but Stockton, definitely.

 

[J-Mart]

Does anyone have a link to Sloan's and Stockton's speech?

 

[TheStig]

Diddy1122 wrote:

mlewinth wrote:

I agree Robinson, Sloan, Stockton (and who was the other person? I didn't know woman played basketball).....all deserve their respect. But the lack of attention is deserved. They are all blips on the radar compared to MJ. Stockton and Robinson were stars, there are always stars in the leauge, we will see many more stars in our lives, there are many players in the leauge right now as good or better as those 2. Jordan transcended the game, he was an icon, he was the best of the best. 50 years from now, people will remember Michael Jordan, like they remember Babe Ruth. Could you tell me more than 1 or 2 players who even played in the same era as Ruth? Let's see how many outside of San Antonito and Utah are talking about Stockton and Robinson.

Woah woah woah Mark. Blips on the radar? Stockton holds 2 NBA records for cryin' out loud! Robinson was one of the best post defenders in the history of the NBA. These guys are not blips on the radar in the NBA. I'm sorry you're just flat out wrong there my friend.

People will remember Stockton, maybe Robinson not as much, but Stockton, definitely.

They aren't blips but they are not top 3 all time at their positions. Nor have either lead a team to a title. I would take Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem, Wilt and Russel. I would also take Magic, Oscar and Isaih over Stockton. Neither also did anything special that no one had seen before, they are very traditional and fundamental players.

 

[houheffna]

David Robinson and John Stockton are top 50 all time players and dream teamers along with Jordan. They deserve their respect.

 

[??? ??????]

TheStig wrote:

Diddy1122 wrote:

mlewinth wrote:

I agree Robinson, Sloan, Stockton (and who was the other person? I didn't know woman played basketball).....all deserve their respect. But the lack of attention is deserved. They are all blips on the radar compared to MJ. Stockton and Robinson were stars, there are always stars in the leauge, we will see many more stars in our lives, there are many players in the leauge right now as good or better as those 2. Jordan transcended the game, he was an icon, he was the best of the best. 50 years from now, people will remember Michael Jordan, like they remember Babe Ruth. Could you tell me more than 1 or 2 players who even played in the same era as Ruth? Let's see how many outside of San Antonito and Utah are talking about Stockton and Robinson.

Woah woah woah Mark. Blips on the radar? Stockton holds 2 NBA records for cryin' out loud! Robinson was one of the best post defenders in the history of the NBA. These guys are not blips on the radar in the NBA. I'm sorry you're just flat out wrong there my friend.

People will remember Stockton, maybe Robinson not as much, but Stockton, definitely.

They aren't blips but they are not top 3 all time at their positions. Nor have either lead a team to a title. I would take Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem, Wilt and Russel. I would also take Magic, Oscar and Isaih over Stockton. Neither also did anything special that no one had seen before, they are very traditional and fundamental players.

I'd take Stockton over all of them but Magic, and Robinson over Russell and Wilt.

John Stockton might not have done something that no one had done before. Yes, we've had other assist and steals leaders. But to possess the career assist and steals records by as wide of a margin that Stockton has...that's pretty impressive to me.

 

[houheffna]

I agree with you PO3 about Stockton's place in history, but after watching Isiah and Stockton play, Isiah was the best little pg ever. Would take him over Stockton in a heartbeat. Not even close. Stockton cannot be the best player on your team and you win a championship. Stockton over Oscar? Not even a debate there. Oscar hands down...

Oscar and Isiah were franchise players in their prime. Stockton was always a sidekick.

Robinson was definitely better than Russell...Wilt was a better player. I wish the Bulls had Robinson in his prime now. THAT would be a difference maker...

 

[TheStig]

??? ?????? wrote:

TheStig wrote:

Diddy1122 wrote:

mlewinth wrote:

I agree Robinson, Sloan, Stockton (and who was the other person? I didn't know woman played basketball).....all deserve their respect. But the lack of attention is deserved. They are all blips on the radar compared to MJ. Stockton and Robinson were stars, there are always stars in the leauge, we will see many more stars in our lives, there are many players in the leauge right now as good or better as those 2. Jordan transcended the game, he was an icon, he was the best of the best. 50 years from now, people will remember Michael Jordan, like they remember Babe Ruth. Could you tell me more than 1 or 2 players who even played in the same era as Ruth? Let's see how many outside of San Antonito and Utah are talking about Stockton and Robinson.

Woah woah woah Mark. Blips on the radar? Stockton holds 2 NBA records for cryin' out loud! Robinson was one of the best post defenders in the history of the NBA. These guys are not blips on the radar in the NBA. I'm sorry you're just flat out wrong there my friend.

People will remember Stockton, maybe Robinson not as much, but Stockton, definitely.

They aren't blips but they are not top 3 all time at their positions. Nor have either lead a team to a title. I would take Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem, Wilt and Russel. I would also take Magic, Oscar and Isaih over Stockton. Neither also did anything special that no one had seen before, they are very traditional and fundamental players.

I'd take Stockton over all of them but Magic, and Robinson over Russell and Wilt.

John Stockton might not have done something that no one had done before. Yes, we've had other assist and steals leaders. But to possess the career assist and steals records by as wide of a margin that Stockton has...that's pretty impressive to me.

I disagree, Oscar Robinson had Bron type numbers and was amazing. IT was just incredible in his time and could do everything. Stockton gets a lot of his totals because he played the 3rd most games in NBA history and 6th most minutes in the league. And just thinking about it, I'd probably take Kidd over him. CP3 will also be better than him by the end of his career and Deron Williams will have a decent shot.

 

[??? ??????]

TheStig wrote:

??? ?????? wrote:

TheStig wrote:

Diddy1122 wrote:

mlewinth wrote:

I agree Robinson, Sloan, Stockton (and who was the other person? I didn't know woman played basketball).....all deserve their respect. But the lack of attention is deserved. They are all blips on the radar compared to MJ. Stockton and Robinson were stars, there are always stars in the leauge, we will see many more stars in our lives, there are many players in the leauge right now as good or better as those 2. Jordan transcended the game, he was an icon, he was the best of the best. 50 years from now, people will remember Michael Jordan, like they remember Babe Ruth. Could you tell me more than 1 or 2 players who even played in the same era as Ruth? Let's see how many outside of San Antonito and Utah are talking about Stockton and Robinson.

Woah woah woah Mark. Blips on the radar? Stockton holds 2 NBA records for cryin' out loud! Robinson was one of the best post defenders in the history of the NBA. These guys are not blips on the radar in the NBA. I'm sorry you're just flat out wrong there my friend.

People will remember Stockton, maybe Robinson not as much, but Stockton, definitely.

They aren't blips but they are not top 3 all time at their positions. Nor have either lead a team to a title. I would take Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem, Wilt and Russel. I would also take Magic, Oscar and Isaih over Stockton. Neither also did anything special that no one had seen before, they are very traditional and fundamental players.

I'd take Stockton over all of them but Magic, and Robinson over Russell and Wilt.

John Stockton might not have done something that no one had done before. Yes, we've had other assist and steals leaders. But to possess the career assist and steals records by as wide of a margin that Stockton has...that's pretty impressive to me.

I disagree, Oscar Robinson had Bron type numbers and was amazing. IT was just incredible in his time and could do everything. Stockton gets a lot of his totals because he played the 3rd most games in NBA history and 6th most minutes in the league. And just thinking about it, I'd probably take Kidd over him. CP3 will also be better than him by the end of his career and Deron Williams will have a decent shot.

Stockton has the career totals because he was the best passer ever, and he was able to do it over a long time. Stockton owns 5 of the top 6 APG season in NBA history. Isiah Thomas, at #3 is the only other guy in the top 6.

And saying Robertson is kind of a joke. Robertson's stats are inflated because of the era he played in, in which they had inferior competition and a ridiculously high pace factor.

Robertson wouldn't have put up those numbers in the 80's, 90's, 00's like he did in the 60's and 70's.

 

[TheStig]

??? ?????? wrote:

TheStig wrote:

??? ?????? wrote:

TheStig wrote:

Diddy1122 wrote:

mlewinth wrote:

I agree Robinson, Sloan, Stockton (and who was the other person? I didn't know woman played basketball).....all deserve their respect. But the lack of attention is deserved. They are all blips on the radar compared to MJ. Stockton and Robinson were stars, there are always stars in the leauge, we will see many more stars in our lives, there are many players in the leauge right now as good or better as those 2. Jordan transcended the game, he was an icon, he was the best of the best. 50 years from now, people will remember Michael Jordan, like they remember Babe Ruth. Could you tell me more than 1 or 2 players who even played in the same era as Ruth? Let's see how many outside of San Antonito and Utah are talking about Stockton and Robinson.

Woah woah woah Mark. Blips on the radar? Stockton holds 2 NBA records for cryin' out loud! Robinson was one of the best post defenders in the history of the NBA. These guys are not blips on the radar in the NBA. I'm sorry you're just flat out wrong there my friend.

People will remember Stockton, maybe Robinson not as much, but Stockton, definitely.

They aren't blips but they are not top 3 all time at their positions. Nor have either lead a team to a title. I would take Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem, Wilt and Russel. I would also take Magic, Oscar and Isaih over Stockton. Neither also did anything special that no one had seen before, they are very traditional and fundamental players.

I'd take Stockton over all of them but Magic, and Robinson over Russell and Wilt.

John Stockton might not have done something that no one had done before. Yes, we've had other assist and steals leaders. But to possess the career assist and steals records by as wide of a margin that Stockton has...that's pretty impressive to me.

I disagree, Oscar Robinson had Bron type numbers and was amazing. IT was just incredible in his time and could do everything. Stockton gets a lot of his totals because he played the 3rd most games in NBA history and 6th most minutes in the league. And just thinking about it, I'd probably take Kidd over him. CP3 will also be better than him by the end of his career and Deron Williams will have a decent shot.

Stockton has the career totals because he was the best passer ever, and he was able to do it over a long time. Stockton owns 5 of the top 6 APG season in NBA history. Isiah Thomas, at #3 is the only other guy in the top 6.

And saying Robertson is kind of a joke. Robertson's stats are inflated because of the era he played in, in which they had inferior competition and a ridiculously high pace factor.

Robertson wouldn't have put up those numbers in the 80's, 90's, 00's like he did in the 60's and 70's.

Yeah, you are right, I guess I underestimated his passing. I would still rather have Isaih or Magic and still think CP3 will have a better all around career. Stockton is very solid, he just doesn't wow me and doesn't seem like he can carry a team. He is definitely top 50 all time and top 5 pg.

I don't think you can discount robertson like that, you can't just throw out a generation because they played a higher pace. Whether the competition is there or not is not something that the player could have compensated for. He played against who he could. His per is still top 20 all time for his career.

 

[engies]

Stockton perhaps is my choice if i made an all time basketball team. Even though I guess Magic was better and i'm sure maybe a few others may be considered better when they retire in the next upcomming 10-15 years (Rose hopefully ), Stockton does everything you want from a point guard

He was unselfish, throwing out assists left right and center, he was also a great shooter and great (if dirty) defender. He also had that calm yet intense spirit about him.

Now onto people not acknowledging Sloan as one of the best coaches of all time just cause he didn't win a championship. The same fingers pointed at players like Ewing, Barkley, Malone, Stockton for not winning the big one. What people need to realize is, they were unfortunate. In any other era they could've, because in no other era was there a player that was as dominate as Michael. Not now, not any other era.

When Michael played for the majority of his career there was such a huge gap between him and the next best player. In this day and era we may have Kobe or Lebron or Wade, but none of them (well not yet in the case of Lebron) have had such a big gap between them as players. Same in the 80's you had Bird and Magic. I guess the only other player that was so dominate in his era was Wilt.

Now if Jordan never arrived, or perhaps didnt have Scottie Pippen, Phil Jackson, Horace Grant, Dennis Rodman, etc, Sloan, along with Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Ewing could've had a title. Its just unfortunate for them they played in the era where the greatest of all time had to play with a great coach & a fairly sufficient group of players.

I've seen Jerry Sloan coach absolute crap players around Karl & John that had good careers under his coaching, but often stumbled into nothing when they had left his team. He got some teams that shouldnt have made the playoffs into the playoffs.

I don't think the current Jazz is underachieving at all. They've had Boozer injured a large majority of the time, Kirelenko breaking down mentally and dropping off his game dramatically. And other than Williams and Okur do they really have much else. The other teams in the west are just better. He's also developed alot of players well and turned them into good pieces (like Milsap)

I'm pleased that Sloan has been placed in the HOF. His name belongs among the best, even if he does not ever win a ring.

 

[mlewinth]

Guys, I love this discussion. We should do more historical convos on this site. I wan't to clarify. My blip on the radar comment is only because Michael is Michael and the greatest of all time and like we are all breaking down here, Robinson is certiantly not a top 3 in his position and Stockton was arguable.

Personally I do not put Stockton or Robinson in the top 3 at their position. Robinson was awesome. He certiantly deserves to be in the HOF. But I would say at no point in his career was he even the best player of his position in his era. Hakeem was MUCH better than Robinson, it was no contest between those two. Some would say Ewing was better, but you could make an argument there. Shaq was no doubt better than Robinson as well.

Stockton may of at a point in his career (late 90's) been the best player in the leauge at his position, but we haven't had really true dominant point guard eras ever in the game (until maybe now). Stockton though is not in the top 3 in my opinion of best point guards ever. He was very good, he was a tough dude, clutch shooter. Few dished the rock as well as him, but he also had as a whole pretty good teams playing with him and he always had Karl Malone. But as many have pointed out, you DO NOT win a championship with John Stockton as your best player. Oscar Robinson was definantly better than Stockton. Magic and Stockton!?!?!?....not even a discussion....Magic. Chris Paul will be better than Stockton when all is said and done, I am certian of that. Isiah is an interesting discussion. I like Stockton's numbers more, but Isiah won 2 titles. You might be able to make the discussion in 10 years of Deron Williams, he may not be the defender Stockton was, but he is better offensivly.

The only PG's ever, who in their prime could lead a team to a title in my opinion is Oscar and Magic. If you had the right team around CP3, he could be the best player on a championship team too, I believe.

 

[houheffna]

The only PG's ever, who in their prime could lead a team to a title in my opinion is Oscar and Magic. If you had the right team around CP3, he could be the best player on a championship team too, I believe.

Isiah was the best player on two championship teams...

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

The only PG's ever, who in their prime could lead a team to a title in my opinion is Oscar and Magic. If you had the right team around CP3, he could be the best player on a championship team too, I believe.

Isiah was the best player on two championship teams...

Billups too. The rules have changed, perimeter players have become more valuable. You really don't need a dominate big as your best player, just a above average front court.

 

[??? ??????]

TheStig wrote:

houheffna wrote:

The only PG's ever, who in their prime could lead a team to a title in my opinion is Oscar and Magic. If you had the right team around CP3, he could be the best player on a championship team too, I believe.

Isiah was the best player on two championship teams...

Billups too. The rules have changed, perimeter players have become more valuable. You really don't need a dominate big as your best player, just a above average front court.

Ben Wallace was the best players on the Pistons championship team. He put up the best D-Rtg in NBA history and NBA playoff history that year. Chauncey Billups definitely wasn't more valuable than the most dominating defensive performance in NBA history.

 

[Diddy1122]

mlewinth wrote:

Guys, I love this discussion. We should do more historical convos on this site. I wan't to clarify. My blip on the radar comment is only because Michael is Michael and the greatest of all time and like we are all breaking down here, Robinson is certiantly not a top 3 in his position and Stockton was arguable.

Personally I do not put Stockton or Robinson in the top 3 at their position. Robinson was awesome. He certiantly deserves to be in the HOF. But I would say at no point in his career was he even the best player of his position in his era. Hakeem was MUCH better than Robinson, it was no contest between those two. Some would say Ewing was better, but you could make an argument there. Shaq was no doubt better than Robinson as well.

Stockton may of at a point in his career (late 90's) been the best player in the leauge at his position, but we haven't had really true dominant point guard eras ever in the game (until maybe now). Stockton though is not in the top 3 in my opinion of best point guards ever. He was very good, he was a tough dude, clutch shooter. Few dished the rock as well as him, but he also had as a whole pretty good teams playing with him and he always had Karl Malone. But as many have pointed out, you DO NOT win a championship with John Stockton as your best player. Oscar Robinson was definantly better than Stockton. Magic and Stockton!?!?!?....not even a discussion....Magic. Chris Paul will be better than Stockton when all is said and done, I am certian of that. Isiah is an interesting discussion. I like Stockton's numbers more, but Isiah won 2 titles. You might be able to make the discussion in 10 years of Deron Williams, he may not be the defender Stockton was, but he is better offensivly.

The only PG's ever, who in their prime could lead a team to a title in my opinion is Oscar and Magic. If you had the right team around CP3, he could be the best player on a championship team too, I believe.

Mark it's not about Stockton being the best player on his team, and the debate wasn't winning a championship with Stockton as your best player. It's that Stockton was the best PG. When it came to passing the rock, running the offense, hitting the clutch shot, & playing lock down D, there wasn't anyone better than Stockton at the position. The guy only missed 22 games in 19 seasons, talk about stability at the PG position. And he was much more physically limited than all the other players people have mentioned, there's something to be said about that. He's probably the smartest player I have ever watched play the game. He led the league in assists 9 seasons in a row. 9! 1 of only 3 players in NBA history to record 1,000 assists in a single season. As Po3 said, 5 of 6 highest Apg totals for a season, including the highest ever at 14.5.

You can't honestly look at those Jazz teams & say that the talent was anywhere near what Magic had with the Lakers. I watched those Jazz teams, & other than Jeff Malone, there was no one else but Stockton & Malone. Magic had Kareem, Michael Cooper, James Worthy, Jammal Wilkes, Bob McAdoo, Byron Scott, all that talent was 100x's better than any of the mid 80's to early 90's Jazz teams. It was Stockton & Malone for the majority of their careers & not until the mid 90's did the Jazz finally get some decent talent around those 2. I'm not saying Magic wasn't great, because he was, but saying that Stockton had pretty good teams is a bit off.

Yes, he never won a championship, but so have alot of great players, but he just happened to play in the era of Jordan, like many others, & that prevented him from achieving the ultimate goal. The Jazz have the distinct honor of having the best PG of all time & the best PF of all time, but still no championships because they played against the GOAT, with one of best SF's of all time, coached by probably the greatest coach of all time.

But if I'm picking an all-time greats team, Stockton is my starting PG every time.

 

[TheStig]

??? ?????? wrote:

TheStig wrote:

houheffna wrote:

The only PG's ever, who in their prime could lead a team to a title in my opinion is Oscar and Magic. If you had the right team around CP3, he could be the best player on a championship team too, I believe.

Isiah was the best player on two championship teams...

Billups too. The rules have changed, perimeter players have become more valuable. You really don't need a dominate big as your best player, just a above average front court.

Ben Wallace was the best players on the Pistons championship team. He put up the best D-Rtg in NBA history and NBA playoff history that year. Chauncey Billups definitely wasn't more valuable than the most dominating defensive performance in NBA history.

Wallace was great defensively but Billups was very good on both sides of the ball. He distributed, defended and took all the big shots. Your best player can't be a one way player imo. Billups was also finals MVP so clearly I am not the only to think so.

 

[Diddy1122]

TheStig wrote:

??? ?????? wrote:

TheStig wrote:

houheffna wrote:

The only PG's ever, who in their prime could lead a team to a title in my opinion is Oscar and Magic. If you had the right team around CP3, he could be the best player on a championship team too, I believe.

Isiah was the best player on two championship teams...

Billups too. The rules have changed, perimeter players have become more valuable. You really don't need a dominate big as your best player, just a above average front court.

Ben Wallace was the best players on the Pistons championship team. He put up the best D-Rtg in NBA history and NBA playoff history that year. Chauncey Billups definitely wasn't more valuable than the most dominating defensive performance in NBA history.

Wallace was great defensively but Billups was very good on both sides of the ball. He distributed, defended and took all the big shots. Your best player can't be a one way player imo. Billups was also finals MVP so clearly I am not the only to think so.

That Pistons team was a tight group of good, scrappy talent with large chips on their shoulders. It's tough to say one player was the MVP because everyone was so essential to their success. You take away any 1 of them & they don't even make the ECF. Wallace was a huge part of that, so was Billups, & Rip, & Sheed, & Prince. It was a unique team that managed to catch a LA team in the midst of disarray, & rode their passion & desire to a championship.